{"id":7829,"date":"2016-06-02T11:37:55","date_gmt":"2016-06-02T15:37:55","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=7829"},"modified":"2017-02-25T14:50:48","modified_gmt":"2017-02-25T18:50:48","slug":"are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>
\"CloudsHeaven\"<\/div>\n
Photograph by \u201cAdinaVoicu\u201d (1-4-14)<\/span> [Pixabay<\/a> \/ CC0 public domain<\/a>]<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
***<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
(2-15-06)<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
\n

*****<\/p>\n

\u201cGrubb\u201d is a friendly Baptist regular on my blog. I\u2019ve compiled this from interactions in my comments sections below. Originally, it began with Grubb\u2019s response to certain aspects of the argument in my paper: \u201cBiblical Evidence for Communication From God and Ghosts (?) in Dreams.\u201d His words will be in green<\/span>. Note<\/i>: I\u2019ve added several new replies or clarifications as I edit and cut-and-paste this.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

<\/div>\n
**********<\/div>\n

Interesting post Dave. Firstly, I don\u2019t think Jer 15:1-2, Rev 5:8, and Rev 6:9-10 refer to heavenly saints interceding for us, but that\u2019s another issue.<\/span><\/p>\n

Why? How is Rev 6:10 not a prayer? It is certainly being uttered by slain people, on behalf of those on earth. What are the elders doing with \u201cthe prayers of the saints\u201d in Rev 5:8? As for Jer 15:1-2, are you saying that Moses and Samuel are no longer alive, and have no concern for those on earth? Why, then, did Moses appear with Jesus? Why did Samuel appear to rebuke Saul, if neither are conscious or concerned with earthly affairs?<\/p>\n

To say God can\u2019t use our dreams to speak to us is to say God can\u2019t speak to us through our own thoughts. Surely he can plant this thought or that in my head and guide my reasoning while I\u2019m both awake and asleep if He so desires. But that\u2019s different than dead people appearing to us.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>It is different, but the argument is that since dead people have indeed appeared on rare occasions (Moses, Elijah, Samuel, the ones who rose and walked around after Jesus was killed), then it cannot be ruled out that they could also \u201cappear\u201d in some fashion in a dream, which is a non-material thing. If the more extraordinary thing actually occurred, per the Bible, then the lesser thing is likely to be possible and actual.<\/p>\n

I concede it\u2019s possible. Phil 4:13 tells us all things are possible with God. But is it probable? Why would something that\u2019s so extraordinary and rare in the Bible be occurring on a daily basis now? And what was the purpose of the dead appearing in the Bible? It may have been to show that life does continue after death (Sadducees didn\u2019t think it did). Was it to comfort those who were living as is the case with so many dreams these days?<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

Since all NT dreams were about Christ or the Christian mission, all OT dreams had God or an angel speaking in them<\/span><\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>Not true; in 2 Maccabees, Jeremiah and Onias spoke.<\/span><\/p>\n

As I don\u2019t accept the Apocrypha as Canon, I cannot accept it as proof of the dead speaking to one in a dream. We\u2019re at an impasse regarding that.<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

and there\u2019s no indication that God even allows heavenly saints to communicate with us,<\/span>That\u2019s not true, either, per the above biblical evidences.<\/p>\n

Still can\u2019t accept it. :-)<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

it seems right to conclude that dead people do not communicate with us in our dreams.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>Since you are operating on a false premise, this would<\/i> \u201cseem right\u201d to you. But when you adopt true (and truly biblical) premises, it is entirely biblical and permissible.<\/span><\/p>\n

So far, it sounds as though the only factual premise we disagree on is the Apocrypha. From here to the remainder of my comment, I won\u2019t consider II Maccabees in my response. Otherwise I have to keep typing, \u201cexcept for II Mac which I don\u2019t regard as scripture.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

The Bible is way too silent on this issue for us to be believing that heavenly saints are appearing to us in dreams.<\/span><\/p>\n

I believe I have shown that it is NOT silent. You have to deal with the texts; not just make Protestant dogmatic statements.<\/p>\n

You\u2019ve shown instances of dead people appearing to those who were awake not to people in a dream. My belief lines up more with what the Bible says, while yours is based on what could possibly be but the Bible doesn\u2019t say. I\u2019m not merely espousing Protestant dogma, I\u2019m simply looking at what the Bible says about dead people speaking in dreams (or rather what it doesn\u2019t say) and coming to the conclusion that it doesn\u2019t happen. <\/span><\/p>\n

***<\/p>\n

If He\u2019s given heavenly saints the power to appear to us in our dreams, has He given hellish demons the same power?<\/span><\/p>\n

They do<\/i> have that power, yes, which is why we are warned to test the spirits.<\/p>\n

If one\u2019s grandma seemed very nice but while still alive she secretly rejected Jesus; when she dies, she might appear to him in a dream and mislead him.<\/span><\/p>\n

A demon could mislead. I believe that is what happens in seances and so forth.<\/p>\n

I have a friend who said his dead grandma (or aunt or something like that) appeared to him in a dream when he was a teen and told him not to worry about religion, because they\u2019re all basically the same and lead to the same place. He\u2019s been trusting that dream and forsaking Christianity for 30+ years and will go to hell if he continues to do so.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>That\u2019s a clear case of not testing the spirits by an objective criterion: the Bible or at least some Bible-based Christian tradition besides his own subjective feelings and opinions. It\u2019s folly to base a worldview on an experience. That\u2019s backwards and very dangerous.<\/span><\/p>\n

We agree that every dream must be tested against a standard already established. I, the Bible; and you, the Bible, the Church, and tradition. But there\u2019s still no evidence that God allows dead saints to interact in our dreams. Even if I accepted II Mac 15:11-16 as truth, it still only shows one instance of God doing this type of thing. It in no way establishes a pattern of what dead people do, and I\u2019ve already acknowledged that God CAN do this sort of thing; there\u2019s just no indication that He chooses to do it periodically (let alone regularly). God turned water into wine once, let a follower walk on water once, and raised a dead and buried man to life a couple times, but He hasn\u2019t made these things commonplace by any means. Even if II Mac is true, why expect that one instance to be the norm for dead people.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>***<\/span><\/p>\n

I believe dead relatives in my dreams are the same as live ones . . . just my imagination putting them there.<\/span><\/p>\n

You can believe whatever you want; I am interested in the biblical data which can be brought to bear on this, and why one rejects the interpretation I have taken towards it. I hope you will elaborate.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s the problem, the Bible doesn\u2019t address this topic specifically. Here\u2019s how I think it does address it. To what end would a dead person appear in one\u2019s dream? To let us know they\u2019re ok? To comfort us? To encourage us? To give us direction? To strengthen us? Those are all jobs of the Trinity, angels, and the living. There is no place where He ever indicates \u201cthis is what dead people do.\u201d We know what the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the angels, the demons, Satan, and living people do, because the Bible tells us. We don\u2019t, however, know what dead people do, because the Bible doesn\u2019t tell us. <\/span>
\n
\n<\/span><\/span>Solomon said, \u201cFor the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun<\/span>.\u201d (Eccl 9:5-6) There are exceptions to this, but the standard is: when we die, we cease to have any impact on this world. That would include intercession as well as visiting the living in a dream.\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Ecclesiastes is wisdom, or proverbial literature. This is a classic example of a statement which was meant in one literary sense (proverbial), wrongly taken in an excessively literal sense. Jehovah\u2019s Witnesses use this verse and other similar ones to \u201cprove\u201d that the dead have no consciousness whatsoever. They are just as wrong as you are (in exegeting the passage), because they ignored the context and the type of biblical literature (perhaps more important with Ecclesiastes than with any other biblical book, because of its unique nature). In this particular book, the object was to look at the world from a cynical, \u201cthis world is all there is\u201d perspective. It\u2019s a rhetorical device. The writer is looking at the dead strictly from the point of view of how it is on earth. But it\u2019s not the last word, by any means, on the Hebrew understanding of the afterlife. The many passages about Sheol in the OT show that they believed that consciousness continued.<\/span><\/span><\/span>
\nThanks for the feedback!<\/span><\/p>\n

The lack of clear scripture showing that heavenly saints actually pray for us and any person of the Bible praying to heavenly saints combined with I Tim 2:5 (\u201c\u2026 one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus\u201d), which is very clear, makes it necessary to say we shouldn\u2019t pray to heavenly saints and that they don\u2019t intercede on our behalf.<\/span><\/p>\n

I\u2019ll address the rest of your question tonight or tomorrow. This is all I had time for today.<\/p>\n

Thanks again for hosting this site and giving us the opportunity to discuss.<\/p>\n

Thanks for your kind words and replies. I disagree wholeheartedly, as you might predict.<\/p>\n

Regarding Rev 6:10: When Job stood in God\u2019s presence and asked a question, was it a prayer? No, it was just a question.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>This is a distinction without a difference. Prayer is simply talking to God; particularly if one is making a request on behalf of others (intercession). Why you would want to make out that this is somehow not a prayer is a mystery.<\/span><\/p>\n

The only \u201creason\u201d I can see is a preconceived, unbiblical Protestant notion that somehow it is impossible to ever pray again once one is dead. But we have no reason whatsoever to believe<\/i> that, based on the biblical evidences. This one is quite explicit, so to deal with it you have to resort to the desperate measure of simply explaining it away by recourse to word games. Not impressive, my friend!<\/p>\n

Besides, \u201casking\u201d God for something is often equated with prayer in Scripture (Mt 6:8, 7:7, 21:22: \u201cwhatever you ask in prayer\u201d, James 1:5-6, I Jn 3:22, 5:14-16). Is that not a \u201cquestion\u201d?
\nSince conversation often includes questions, then prayer also would. So this dichotomy you try to create makes no sense to me at all.<\/p>\n

Make no mistake, he wanted an answer as do the martyrs, but they aren\u2019t necessarily praying.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>How do you define<\/i> prayer, then, I wonder?<\/span><\/p>\n

And even if they are praying, what they\u2019re praying isn\u2019t necessarily interceding on our behalf. It would be praying for justice on those who slay the martyrs.<\/span><\/p>\n

Yes, exactly; this is what is known as an imprecatory prayer. I wrote about this in my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism<\/a><\/i>:<\/p>\n

These are not so much vengeful as they are a plea for, and recognition of, God\u2019s role as the wrathful Judge who will rescue and vindicate the righteous, either in this life or the next. Examples can be found particularly in the Psalms (Psalms 35, 59, 69, 79, 109, 139) and in Jeremiah (11:18 ff., 15:15 ff., 18:19 ff., 20:11 ff.).<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>An angel offers up a very similar prayer in Zechariah 1:12. Jesus mentions a type of this prayer in Matthew 26:53, in which He stated that He could \u201cpray\u201d to the Father and receive legions of angels to prevent His arrest had it been the Father\u2019s will. The idea is the same: prayer for judgment to be wrought upon the enemies of God. At the same time, imprecatory prayers often are intercessions on behalf of the righteous, as in this passage.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>Therefore, unarguably, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth. . . .<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>The well-known Protestant New Bible Commentary<\/i> states that this plea in heaven is indeed a prayer, which quickens the end of the age (8:1-5). This admission is of immense significance for our topic. For if the prayers of dead saints have such an importance regarding the last days and the final judgment, who can deny that such prayers are valid and effective with regard to far more mundane matters (such as our everyday concerns)? The doctrine of communion of saints, then, would appear to be irrefutably presented in the book of Revelation.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>Footnote<\/b>: D. Guthrie & J.A. Motyer, editors, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 3rd ed., 1970, p. 1289. Concurring in this opinion is Robert Jamieson, Andrew R. Fausset, & David Brown, Commentary on the Whole Bible<\/i>, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1961 (orig. 1864), 846, 1547.<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>(pp. 112-113)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n


\nRegarding Rev 5:8: Every place the Apostle Paul (and possibly the NT, I can\u2019t recall for certain) uses the term \u201csaints\u201d, he\u2019s referring to the living followers of Jesus;<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s not true, either. According to Vine\u2019s Expository Dictionary<\/i>:<\/p>\n

See especially 2 Thess. 1:10, where \u2018His saints\u2019 are also described as \u2018them that believed,\u2019 i.e., the whole number of the redeemed.\u201d<\/span>
\n
\n<\/span>(under \u201cSaints\u201d)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This would include the departed saints as well as the ones still alive on earth. St. Paul also refers to \u201cthe coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints\u201d (1 Thess 3:13).<\/span><\/p>\n

cf. Jude 14: \u201c. . . Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads\u201d (RSV: KJV: \u201csaints\u201d \/ Gk. hagios<\/i> as in most instances of \u201csaint\u201d in the NT; this is describing the 2nd Coming)<\/p>\n

Both of these instances clearly include those who have died in Christ.<\/p>\n

so the prayers in the bowl would be those offered by Christians who were physically alive at the time they prayed them.<\/span><\/p>\n


\n<\/span>Since I have disproven your premise above, this conclusion no longer follows, and must be discarded.<\/span><\/span><\/span>Secondly, even if we grant that the prayers came only<\/i> from people on earth, then you have to explain from a Protestant point of view what these people in heaven were doing<\/i> with prayers of those on earth in the first place, since (in that outlook) all prayers supposedly go right to God from people on earth, and those who are dead have nothing to do with them.Moreover, such a position is certainly extraordinary and novel, even within the framework of Protestant exegesis, since the scene takes place in heaven (Rev 4:1-2), near God\u2019s throne (4:2, 5-6,9-10; 5:1,6-7,11,13). The 24 elders are described as seated on thrones and \u201cclad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads\u201d (Rev 4:4).\n

For your scenario to be true, this would require 24 men from earth to be taken to heaven to be next to God on 24 thrones. This stretches credibility beyond the breaking point. Crowns (2 Tim. 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Peter 5:4, Rev 2:10) and white robes (Rev 6:11, 7:9,13-14) are both used often in Scripture to denote entrance into heaven, with cleansing and reward.<\/p>\n

Some commentators believe that the 24 elders are angelic beings, in which case, they would not be human beings on the earth, and would have something to do with our prayers (even weirder, according to Protestant theology). If they are human beings, they seem to have undergone death, based on the symbology.<\/p>\n

One Protestant site <\/a>I found argues much the same way that I have. It assumes that this is occurring in heaven, and holds that dead men are being referred to, not angels:<\/p>\n

1. It says they are elders \u2014 I cannot find the word ever applied to angels. This makes sense since angels apparently are all the same age anyway.<\/p>\n

2. They sit on thrones and wear crowns \u2014 Again you never will find an angel wearing a crown or destined to rule as the thrones imply. On the other hand we are told
\nthroughout the Bible that the righteous shall inherit and rule the earth, including the twelve apostles sitting on twelve thrones ruling each of the twelve tribes (Lk 22:30).<\/p>\n

3. White Raiment \u2014 If they are righteous glorified men in Heaven, this is what they ought to be wearing according to Rev 19:8 as the clothing of the Bride of Christ at the Marriage Supper will be, in addition to many parables of Jesus.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Angels are also distinguished from elders in Rev 5:11.<\/span><\/p>\n

In any event, I challenge you to find any well-known Bible commentator who holds that this is men still alive on earth. I don\u2019t think it can be done.<\/p>\n

Regarding Jer 15:1-2: God is posing a hypothetical, \u201cEven if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, \u2026\u201d He probably used this terminology, because Moses and Samuel had intervened for His people while they were living on earth. He in no way indicates that Moses and Samuel are interceding on our behalf this very minute.<\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s not required. The hypothetical implies that the actual occurrence<\/i> is possible, too. If I stated, for example, \u201ceven if my wife stood before me and begged me, I wouldn\u2019t clean the gutters,\u201d does that imply that it is impossible<\/i> for her to do such a thing? Of course not.<\/p>\n

We know that some dead men have come back (Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, the two witnesses in Revelation, Samuel, who pronounced judgment on Saul). What is it in your theology that makes you think that when someone dies, all of a sudden, they no longer love or have any concern for the happenings on earth, and loved ones still there? This makes no sense. Do they become rocks or unfeeling automatons when they are in the presence of God? How implausible is that? When with He Who is<\/i> Love, they have no love or consciousness?<\/p>\n

But Revelation shows us clearly that all this is false, anyway, because there we have \u201cdead\u201d human beings highly concerned with the events on earth, and praying for people on earth; even having the \u201cprayers of the saints\u201d (along with angels, who also present them to God).<\/p>\n

The lack of clear scripture showing that heavenly saints actually pray for us<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n


\n<\/span>I think we can safely say that the data above demolishes this contention.<\/span><\/span>and any person of the Bible praying to heavenly saints combined with I Tim 2:5 (\u201c\u2026 one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus\u201d), which is very clear, makes it necessary to say we shoul<\/span><\/div>\n
\n

dn\u2019t pray to heavenly saints and that they don\u2019t intercede on our behalf. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

That\u2019s all very nice Protestant dogmatism, but the problem is that it is unbiblical. The following evidence shows this:<\/p>\n

1. Dead saints are aware of earthly affairs: Mt 22:30, Lk 15:10, 1 Cor 4:9, Heb 12:1<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Matt 22:30 \u201cAt the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.\u201d<\/span>
\nTaking this passage to mean that we\u2019ll be like angels in every way is errant.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

We have to go by what information this gives us. If it says we will be \u201clike\u201d them, then it is reasonable to speculate in what way<\/i> we will be so. That\u2019s more reasonable than immediately looking at differences<\/i>, in discussing a passage which states a general similarity<\/i>. I agree that it can\u2019t mean we are like them in every <\/i>way, lest we cease to be men, who are different than angels in several ways by definition. But that is self-evident, and doesn\u2019t solve our controversy one way or the other.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

We\u2019ll have bodies; they won\u2019t.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

True, but that has nothing to do with the possibilty of intercession, since it is a non-physical thing.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

We\u2019ll be higher than them.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

All the more reason to think that we can still pray for those on earth, since that is an attribute of men that angels already share anyway, and one that we possess on earth. In other words, if angels seem \u201chigher\u201d than us now, and we pray for others now, if we are higher than them in heaven, then on what basis can we conclude that we will no longer pray; something we already do here? To not be able to do that in the afterlife would mean we are \u201clower\u201d than we are on earth, while at the same time we are \u201chigher\u201d than the angels. This makes little sense, and is incoherent and implausible, to put it mildly.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Jesus is addressing a specific question of the Sadducees about marriage in heaven, and He answers that we\u2019ll be like angels in marriage not in every way. This doesn\u2019t support dead saints being aware of earthly affairs.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

So you say. It certainly doesn\u2019t rule it out. The argument from silence only goes so far. Nothing in your reply here is compelling against my position, because it really wasn\u2019t an argument; rather, simply a denial of the possibilities inherent in what this biblical statement allows (based on prior dogmatic disposition).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Heb 12:1 Paul is most likely referring to angels here. He could even be referring to fellow living believers since we each view our brothers\u2019 lives.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That\u2019s not the standard view of Protestant commentators, since the word for witness in Heb 12:1 is the Greek martus<\/i>, from which is derived the English word martyr<\/i>. Hence, prominent Protestant linguistic \/ exegetical sources such as W.E. Vine in his Expository Dictionary of NT Words<\/i>, Thayer\u2019s Greek-English Lexicon<\/i>, A.T. Robertson\u2019s Word Pictures in the New Testament<\/i>, and Gerhard Kittel\u2019s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament<\/i> believe that this passage is referring to dead saints observing Christian believers still alive on earth. Your opinion is far out of the mainstream of Protestant scholarship.<\/p>\n

2. Dead saints intercede for those on earth: Jer 15:1-2, 2 Maccabees 15:14, Rev 6:9-10<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Jer 15: A hypothetical only proves that something could be, not that it is. Jer 15 doesn\u2019t prove anything.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Rev 6:9-10 Imprecatory prayers are not intercession, or they\u2019d be called intercessory prayers. :-) The heavenly saints are not interceding for us.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\u00a03. Saints act as intermediaries and present our prayers to God: Rev 5:8<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

A messenger is not a mediator.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

4. Dead saints appear on earth and interact with men: 1 Sam 28:12-15 with Sirach 46:20, 2 Maccabees 15:13-16, Mt 17:1-3 and 27:50-53, Rev 11:3<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

These aren\u2019t instances of dreams though (still ignoring the Apocrypha) which is what we were talking about.<\/span><\/p>\n

5. There is such a thing as guardian angels: Ps 34:7, 91:11, Mt 18:10, Acts 12:15, Heb 1:14<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Agreed. They exist, but it\u2019s not conclusive that each person has his own.<\/span><\/p>\n

6. Angels are aware of our thoughts: Lk 15:10, 1 Cor 4:9<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Our thoughts? Only God is guaranteed to know our thoughts. Neither angels nor demons know our thoughts. They know our actions and circumstances but not our thoughts.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is clearly untrue, as seen in Holy Scripture. For example: Matthew 1:20, where we are informed that the angel knew Joseph was troubled about Mary being pregnant (not understanding that it was miraculous). The angel could know this because God gave<\/i> it this knowledge. It doesn\u2019t necessarily have to be intrinsic <\/i>knowledge (just as God gives prophets supernatural knowledge). But as soon as we see an angel knowing interior thoughts of men (as we do here), then your objection collapses. The only confusion seems to be how the angel obtained<\/i> such knowledge.<\/p>\n

7. Angels act as intermediaries and present our prayers to God: Tobit 12:12,15, Rev 8:34 (cf. 5:8)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Again, a messenger is not a mediator.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

All of this being the case, it is perfectly reasonable and biblical to ask either angels or dead saints to pray for us, whether or not there is an explicit<\/i> Scriptural passage (because all the elements <\/i>are there: they see and observe us and pray for us; therefore we can ask them to do so).<\/span><\/p>\n

A friend of mine asked me if a dog\u2019s spirit goes to heaven when they die. I said the Bible doesn\u2019t really say. She then said she believed they did. If silence is permissive, she\u2019s not banned from thinking that. And if praying to anything in heaven is allowed, what\u2019s to stop her from praying to her dog? This is the kind of theology one CAN end up with if he chooses the \u201csilence is permissive\u201d approach.<\/span><\/p>\n

The context of I Tim 2:1-5 is prayer not justice, so it\u2019s inaccurate to say verse 5 is about Jesus being a mediator of justice. Of course Jesus IS the mediator of justice, but that\u2019s not what this passage is talking about; it\u2019s talking about Him being the mediator in prayer.<\/span><\/p>\n

Thanks much, Grubb, for your responses and amiability. I\u2019ll let you have the last word, and it\u2019ll make a good dialogue, I think, for people to read and consider both sides.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

<\/div>\n
*****<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Meta Description:\u00a0The popular perception of folks in heaven is that they sit on clouds & play harps all day. The Bible teaches that they are praying for us.<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Meta Keywords:\u00a0communion of saints, intercession of the saints, invocation of saints<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Photograph by \u201cAdinaVoicu\u201d (1-4-14) [Pixabay \/ CC0 public domain] *** (2-15-06) ***** \u201cGrubb\u201d is a friendly Baptist regular on my blog. I\u2019ve compiled this from interactions in my comments sections below. Originally, it began with Grubb\u2019s response to certain aspects of the argument in my paper: \u201cBiblical Evidence for Communication From God and Ghosts (?) […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":7831,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[206],"tags":[201,371,372],"class_list":["post-7829","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-saints-purgatory-penance","tag-communion-of-saints","tag-intercession-of-the-saints","tag-invocation-of-saints"],"yoast_head":"\nDialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"The popular perception of folks in heaven is that they sit on clouds & play harps all day. The Bible teaches that they are interceding saints.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"noindex, follow\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"The popular perception of folks in heaven is that they sit on clouds & play harps all day. The Bible teaches that they are interceding saints.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2016-06-02T15:37:55+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2017-02-25T18:50:48+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2016\/06\/CloudsHeaven.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"640\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"480\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dave Armstrong\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"20 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html\",\"name\":\"Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2016-06-02T15:37:55+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2017-02-25T18:50:48+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\"},\"description\":\"The popular perception of folks in heaven is that they sit on clouds & play harps all day. The Bible teaches that they are interceding saints.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/\",\"name\":\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism\",\"description\":\"Catholic biblical apologetics\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e\",\"name\":\"Dave Armstrong\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Dave Armstrong\"},\"description\":\"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798\",\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?","description":"The popular perception of folks in heaven is that they sit on clouds & play harps all day. The Bible teaches that they are interceding saints.","robots":{"index":"noindex","follow":"follow"},"og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?","og_description":"The popular perception of folks in heaven is that they sit on clouds & play harps all day. The Bible teaches that they are interceding saints.","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html","og_site_name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","article_author":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","article_published_time":"2016-06-02T15:37:55+00:00","article_modified_time":"2017-02-25T18:50:48+00:00","og_image":[{"width":640,"height":480,"url":"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2016\/06\/CloudsHeaven.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Dave Armstrong","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Dave Armstrong","Est. reading time":"20 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html","name":"Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website"},"datePublished":"2016-06-02T15:37:55+00:00","dateModified":"2017-02-25T18:50:48+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e"},"description":"The popular perception of folks in heaven is that they sit on clouds & play harps all day. The Bible teaches that they are interceding saints.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/06\/are-dead-saints-playing-harps-or-interceding.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Dialogue: Are Dead Saints Playing Harps or Interceding?"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/","name":"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism","description":"Catholic biblical apologetics","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/471eaa20e441eca4bb1ea50393cf632e","name":"Dave Armstrong","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/820e6db89734ae7a9e5dac8d498f5ac7?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dave Armstrong"},"description":"Dave Armstrong is a Catholic author and apologist, who has been actively proclaiming and defending Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7829","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=7829"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7829\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/7831"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=7829"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=7829"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=7829"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}