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<\/a><\/p>\nSeth Kasten<\/strong>\u00a0(see his blog<\/a>) is a member of the Lutheran Church\u2013Missouri Synod. This is one of a series of replies to his book,\u00a0Against the Invocation of Saints: An Apology for the Protestant Doctrine of Prayer over and against the Doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church<\/em><\/a>\u00a0(Royal Oak, Michigan: Scholastic Lutherans, 2023). I will be using RSV for Bible passages unless otherwise noted. Words from his book will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n See other installments:<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n Many EO will point to examples of saints in heaven praying for those on earth and assert from here that it is proper, even necessary, that we invoke them, but this does not follow. We acknowledge that the saints in heaven pray for us. This is clear in scripture and the early fathers as we have already recognized, but this does not mean we should or need to ask them for such prayers. (pp. 92-93)<\/span><\/p>\n As I showed in my last installment, it is entirely plausible and reasonable to suppose \u2014 given the extraordinary characteristics of saints in heaven \u2013, that being able to hear our prayers would be included in their abilities. If departed saints are like God and like angels, and in union with God, what else is needed, pray tell, to believe that such creatures would be able to hear our prayers? Of course<\/em> they can! In Revelation it even states twice that departed saints and angels in heaven have our prayers (why<\/em>?!) and present them to God. And because these saints and angels are filled with sinless love for those of us on earth, they pray for us as a manifestation of that love. And they hear us, so they can know exactly how to intercede on our behalf.<\/p>\n Revelation 5:8<\/strong> And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;<\/p><\/blockquote>\n In this passage<\/span>, we do not know to whom these prayers belong, apart from that they are from the saints broadly speaking; that is, we do not know if the saints mentioned in 5:8 are saints in heaven or on earth. The former is certainly a possibility as we see later in chapter 6 that the saints in heaven are praying to God prayers of their own. The immediate context before 5:8 lends no help to identifying these saints. (p. 130)<\/span><\/p>\n This is a new one. I\u2019ve never heard this before. \u201cTwenty-four elders\u201d are mentioned five times in Revelation<\/a>. Commentators generally believe them to be human beings, now in heaven. The context of Revelation 5 shows that they are in heaven. 5:1 refers to God the Father \u201cseated on the throne.\u201d 5:6 states: between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing.\u201d Revelation 5:7 has Jesus [\u201cLamb\u201d: 5:6] taking \u201cthe scroll\u201d from\u00a0 God the Father \u201cwho was seated on the throne.\u201d Then in 5:8, \u201cthe twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb\u201d and in 5:9-10 they \u201csang a new song\u201d which is recorded. \u201cThe throne\u201d is again mentioned in 5:11. Absolutely every indication shows that this is taking place in heaven. How Seth can claim that \u201cwe do not know<\/span>\u201d where this scene takes place is utterly beyond my comprehension.<\/p>\n Revelation 4:4, 10 shows the same thing. These elders are \u201cround the throne\u201d (4:4) and they \u201cfall down before him who is seated on the throne\u201d (4:10). In Revelation 11:16 \u201csit on their thrones before God\u201d [implied, before His throne]. The verse before states that \u201cthere were loud voices in heaven\u201d and in 11:19 after the words of their worship are documented, we learn that \u201cGod\u2019s temple in heaven was opened.\u201d In Revelation 19:4 they worship \u201cGod who is seated on the throne\u201d and in 19:1 St. John writes, \u201cI heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven.\u201d<\/p>\n The 6th century bishop Primascius Hadrumetum interprets this<\/span> [the angel described in Revelation 8:1-5] to be Christ:<\/span><\/p>\n He is said to have received the same thing from the prayers of the saints, and to have offered it, because through him the process of all people can easily reach God. Hence the Apostle [writes] (Hebrews 13:15), \u201cby Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.\u201d (pp. 131-132)<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n He was wrong. Jesus is never identified as an angel anywhere in the New Testament. This interpretation would have it that Jesus was referred to merely as \u201canother angel\u201d (8:3). That\u2019s absurd and blasphemous, since angels are created. In Hebrews Jesus is contrasted with the angels, who worship Him:<\/p>\n Hebrews 1:5-8\u00a0<\/strong>For to what angel did God ever say, \u201cThou art my Son, today I have begotten thee\u201d? Or again, \u201cI will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son\u201d? [6] And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, \u201cLet all God\u2019s angels worship him.\u201d [7] Of the angels he says, \u201cWho makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire.\u201d [8] But of the Son he says, \u201cThy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n When John saw Jesus, he saw \u201cone like a son of man\u201d (Rev 1:13), Who said, \u201cFear not, I am the first and the last\u201d (1:17; cf. 2:8). Again when Jesus speaks to John in chapter 22 (see 22:16) He says: \u201cI am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end\u201d (22:12-13). Then he contrasts Himself with what He calls \u201cmy angel\u201d (22:16). 1 Peter 3:22 states that Jesus \u201chas gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.\u201d<\/p>\n Luke 16 is a notoriously difficult chapter to interpret. It contains the story of Lazarus and the rich man (vv. 19-31). The story is here quoted, but no doctrine of invocation can be drawn from it. (p. 134)<\/span><\/p>\n All kinds of things can be drawn from it. And best of all, it\u2019s a report from Jesus\u2019 own lips of a scene that took place in the afterlife.<\/p>\n A number of obstacles must be overcome for this passage to support invocation. First, it is of unclear foundation as commentators disagree on the nature of the story, whether parable or reality. (p. 135)<\/span><\/p>\n Parables never include proper names. So it is an actual historical account. But even if it is<\/em> considered to be a parable, a parable is a teaching tool, and cannot include false theology<\/em> in it, lest Jesus be guilty of error (which is impossible) and leading His followers astray (which would never happen, either). In this sense, it\u2019s irrelevant whether it is a parable or not, so the tactic often used by those who deny the invocation and intercession of departed saints, of declaring it a parable so that what it teaches can be dismissed<\/em>\u00a0(as if any<\/em> of Jesus\u2019 teachings can be dismissed) falls flat.<\/p>\n A parable, especially when mysterious and challenging to interpret, is not strong ground for establishment of a doctrine. (p. 135)<\/span><\/p>\n All of Jesus\u2019 teachings can be used to establish doctrine. For example, the parable of the sower shows that it is possible to fall away form the faith (apostasy): a thing that Calvinists deny. The parable of the wheat and the tares shows that there are sinners in the one true Church. The parable of the prodigal son shows the extraordinary lengths that God will go to forgive us and receive us into His kingdom. Hence it is a teaching about God\u2019s nature, which is a theological doctrine.<\/p>\n the content of the communication between Abraham and the rich man do not match the content in EO prayers. (p. 135)<\/span><\/p>\n They don\u2019t have to. All that matters is whether the story provides support for the invocation of saints. It certainly does. And the best part is that the saint involved is a very famous one, Abraham, who was known for being a great intercessor.<\/p>\n The communication is also from Hades to Abraham\u2019s bosom rather than Earth to Heaven, (p. 135)<\/span><\/p>\n This is irrelevant, too. Lutherans and other Protestants assert that no one but God can receive a petitionary request. This story annihilates that false belief. It takes out the basic premise that Seth is defending.<\/p>\n and the request of the rich man is denied by Abraham rather than approved. (p. 135)<\/span><\/p>\n Irrelevant again.\u00a0Abraham said no (Lk 16:25-26), just as God will say no to a prayer not according to His will. He asked him again, begging (16:27-28). Abraham refused again, saying (16:29): \u201cThey have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.\u2019\u201d He asked a third time (16:30), and Abraham refused again, reiterating the reason why (16:31).<\/p>\n How this supposedly does\u00a0not<\/em><\/strong> support the principle of saints interceding and being able to intercede and hear invocations is a mystery to me. If we were not supposed to ask saints to pray for us, I think this story would be almost the very last<\/em> way to make that supposed point. Abraham would simply have said, \u201cyou shouldn\u2019t be asking me for anything<\/em>; ask God<\/em>!\u201d In the same way, analogously, angels refuse worship when it is offered, because only God can be worshiped [I cited Rev 19:9-10 and 22:8-9]. Refusing a request is not the same thing as not being\u00a0able to grant<\/em>\u00a0the request. Otherwise, we would have to say that God is unable to answer a prayer request when He refuses one.<\/p>\n In this story is a guy praying to a dead man, to request things that the dead man appears to be able to fulfill<\/em> (delegated to him through God\u2019s enabling power, of course). That is quite sufficient to prove the point. But God is never mentioned in the entire story (!!!).\u00a0So why did Jesus teach in this fashion? Why did He teach that the rich man asked Abraham to do things that Protestant theology would hold that only God can do? And why is the whole story about him asking Abraham for requests, rather than going directly to God and asking Him?\u00a0This just isn\u2019t how it\u2019s supposed to be, from a Protestant perspective. All the emphases are wrong, and there are serous theological errors, which would be committed by Jesus Himself (i.e., from the erroneous Protestant perspective).<\/p>\n Furthermore, no command is given for invocation in this passage. (p. 135)<\/span><\/p>\n This is yet another non sequitur<\/em>. All the catholic or Orthodox needs to prove from Holy Scripture is that there is such a thing as a proper invocation of a departed saint or angel. This passage undeniably does that, as an explicit teaching on the subject, right from our Lord Jesus, and there is no way out of it for the Protestant.<\/p>\n Even if it were taken as an example of invocation, the actions of the rich man are not taught as proper and should not be used as a model <\/span>for Christian piety, especially considering his position in Hades. (p. 135)<\/span><\/p>\n Exactly! This is why Abraham turned him down, with an accompanying explanation for why<\/em> he did. But this doesn\u2019t prove that the request itself<\/em> should not have been made, as explained above.<\/p>\n For a convenient summary of all the scriptural data that can be brought to bear on this question, see my article, Invocation Of Saints: 20 Biblical Proofs<\/a> [1-15-24].<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty-five books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>,\u00a0or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/p>\n Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. 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