Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper<\/a>\u00a0is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular\u00a0Just & Sinner<\/em>\u00a0<\/a>YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a\u00a0doctrinally traditional Lutheranism<\/a>, similar to the Lutheran Church \u2013 Missouri Synod). He has authored\u00a0several books<\/a>, as well as\u00a0theological articles<\/a>\u00a0in a variety of publications. All my Bible citations are from RSV, unless otherwise indicated. Jordan\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n This is my 12th reply to Jordan (many more to come, because I want to interact with the best, most informed Protestant opponents). All of these respectful critiques can be found in the \u201cReplies to Jordan Cooper\u201d section at the top of my Lutheranism web page<\/a>.<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n \u201cPlease Hit \u2018Subscribe\u2019\u201d!<\/strong><\/span> If you\u2019ve received benefit from this or any of my 4,500+ articles, please follow this blog by signing up (email address) on the sidebar to the right, above the icon bar, \u201cSign Me Up!\u201d: to receive notice when I post a new blog article. This is the equivalent of subscribing to a YouTube<\/em>\u00a0channel. Please also consider\u00a0following me on Twitter \/ X<\/a>\u00a0and purchasing\u00a0one or more of my 55 books<\/a>. All of this helps me get more exposure and concretely supports my full-time apologetics work. Thanks so much and happy reading!<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n This is a response to a portion of Jordan\u2019s YouTube video, \u201cA Critique of Prayer to the Saints\u201d<\/a> (4-19-20).<\/p>\n 28:44 what you need to have in order to have the the Roman Catholic doctrine of prayers to the saints is something very different and . . . very unbiblical . . . [such as] that there is such a thing as a prayer that is not worship. Now, Scripture says a lot about prayer. Scripture is very explicit about prayer . . . One of the major themes of Scripture from the very beginning to the very end and everywhere we see<\/em><\/strong> . . . prayer that is given directly to God as an act of worship. . . .\u00a0 all we have<\/em><\/strong> is prayer that is an act of worship . . . Scripture is very clear every time<\/em><\/strong> it speaks about prayer, that it is in the context of worship . . . the category of prayer that is not worship does not exist<\/em><\/strong> . . . [my italics and bolding]<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n I find this to be utterly remarkable, and I would if I was a Protestant, too (as I was for my first 32 years). To me it\u2019s obvious that not all prayer is worship. Yet Jordan won\u2019t allow a single exception to this supposedly never-varying biblical presentation of prayer as worship. How is asking God for a request (supplication or petition) or interceding for someone else, or pouring out our heart or our doubts to God, or just sharing our thoughts and feelings, or being still and listening to His answer to a prayer, or guidance, worship? Petitions are much more like requests that we would make of another person. The difference is that God is all-powerful and all-loving; that is, in His capacity and willingness to fulfill<\/em> the request.<\/p>\n But I don\u2019t see how it is always worship<\/em> to ask God for something or to do these other things. To make a bad analogy, we husbands love our wives (and sometimes we say we \u201cadore\u201d them). But is asking them \u201ccould you make me dinner?\u201d or \u201ccan you hand me the yellow highlighter?\u201d part of that love (analogous to \u201cworship\u201d) per se? Clearly not. Nor do we praise our spouses 24-7. We talk about many other things in the course of daily life. Praising God in prayer or in a hymn is worship, but I submit that making a request of Him is not, or at least primarily not.<\/p>\n I looked up the phrase \u201cprayed to the LORD\u201d in the [Protestant] Old Testament (RSV). Surprisingly, there were only sixteen instances<\/a> (and it doesn\u2019t appear in the New Testament). Many of them do not strike me as being \u201cacts of worship\u201d at all:<\/p>\n Genesis 25:21<\/strong> And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived.<\/p>\n Exodus 8:30-31<\/strong> So Moses . . .\u00a0 prayed to the LORD. And the LORD did as Moses asked, and removed the swarms of flies . . .<\/p>\n Numbers 11:2<\/strong> Then the people cried to Moses; and Moses prayed to the LORD, and the fire abated.<\/p>\n 2 Kings 6:18<\/strong> And when the Syrians came down against him, Eli\u2019sha prayed to the LORD, and said, \u201cStrike this people, I pray thee, with blindness.\u201d So he struck them with blindness in accordance with the prayer of Eli\u2019sha.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Sometimes<\/em> (not all<\/em> the time), the elements of a petitionary request and worship are together in a prayer:<\/p>\n Isaiah 37:15-17, 20<\/strong> And Hezeki\u2019ah prayed to the LORD: [16] \u201cO LORD of hosts, God of Israel, who art enthroned above the cherubim, thou art the God, thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth. [17] Incline thy ear, O LORD, and hear; open thy eyes, O LORD, and see; and hear all the words of Sennach\u2019erib, which he has sent to mock the living God. . . . [20] So now, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou alone art the LORD.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Sometimes<\/em> (not all<\/em> the time; Jordan claims it is every<\/em><\/strong> time), a prayer is entirely<\/em> praise and worship:<\/p>\n Jeremiah 32:16-22<\/strong> . . . <\/i>I prayed to the LORD, saying: [17] `Ah Lord GOD! It is thou who hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thy outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for thee, [18] who showest steadfast love to thousands, but dost requite the guilt of fathers to their children after them, O great and mighty God whose name is the LORD of hosts, [19] great in counsel and mighty in deed; whose eyes are open to all the ways of men, rewarding every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings; [20] who hast shown signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, and to this day in Israel and among all mankind, and hast made thee a name, as at this day. [21] Thou didst bring thy people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs and wonders, with a strong hand and outstretched arm, and with great terror; [22] and thou gavest them this land, which thou didst swear to their fathers to give them, a land flowing with milk and honey;<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Sometimes prayer is a confession<\/em> (either individual or corporate):<\/p>\n Daniel 9:3-11<\/strong> Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and supplications with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. [4] I prayed to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, \u201cO Lord, the great and terrible God, who keepest covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, [5] we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from thy commandments and ordinances; [6] we have not listened to thy servants the prophets, who spoke in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. [7] To thee, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us confusion of face, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those that are near and those that are far away, in all the lands to which thou hast driven them, because of the treachery which they have committed against thee. [8] To us, O Lord, belongs confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. [9] To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness; because we have rebelled against him, [10] and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God by following his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. [11] All Israel has transgressed thy law and turned aside, refusing to obey thy voice. . . .<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The most well-known prayer in the Bible is, of course, The<\/em> Lord\u2019s Prayer<\/em>, or Our Father<\/em>. It has many different elements together. It\u2019s not only worship:<\/p>\n Our Father, who art in heaven,<\/em> [declaration of a personal relationship with the transcendent God]<\/p>\n hallowed be thy name;<\/em> [praise or worship]<\/p>\n thy kingdom come; thy will be done; on earth as it is in heaven.<\/em> [belief and faith and discipleship, and a resolve to do His will]<\/p>\n Give us this day our daily bread.<\/em> [petition of sustenance for daily needs]<\/p>\n And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.<\/em> [confession of sin, and resolve to humbly apply the golden rule]<\/p>\n And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.<\/em> [petition for the strength to conquer sin in our lives]<\/p>\n For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen<\/em> [worship and proclamation of God\u2019s greatness]<\/p><\/blockquote>\n An Anglican site on the prayer<\/a> reflects its multi-faceted nature in its description:<\/p>\n The Lord\u2019s Prayer is the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples, when they asked him how they should pray. . . . It . . . forms a pattern for prayer for Christians:<\/p>\n \uf0b7 We bless God and pray for our world, our communities and our lives to be shaped by God\u2019s will; Probably my favorite prayer in the Bible is where Abraham virtually \u201cnegotiates\u201d with God, repeatedly begging Him not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 18:22-33). The chutzpah<\/em> (and love) of the guy! I absolutely love it. But I don\u2019t see how this is adoration or worship. He\u2019s reverent (18:27, 31) and certainly knows his place in the scheme of things, but it reads far more like the minutes of a business or diplomatic meeting than Sunday worship.<\/p>\n \u201cPrayed to God\u201d appears once in the OT, and not in the NT:<\/p>\n Genesis 20:17<\/strong> Then Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abim\u2019elech, and also healed his wife and female slaves so that they bore children. (\u201cPray to God\u201d appears once in the entire Bible, in 1 Cor 11:13)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n \u201cPray to the LORD\u201d appears seven times in the OT<\/a>, including these:<\/p>\n Numbers 21:7<\/strong> And the people came to Moses, and said, \u201cWe have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.\u201d So Moses prayed for the people.<\/p>\n Jeremiah 29:7<\/strong> But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.<\/p>\n Jeremiah 42:4<\/strong> Jeremiah the prophet said to them, \u201cI have heard you; behold, I will pray to the LORD your God according to your request, and whatever the LORD answers you I will tell you; I will keep nothing back from you.\u201d (Acts 8:22: \u201cpray to the Lord\u201d: only time in the NT)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Since Jordan said that every prayer was an act of worship, I was curious if the Bible associated them this closely, or at all. A proximity search of \u201cpray[er]\u201d and \u201cworship\u201d yielded only one result:<\/p>\n Luke 2:37<\/strong> . . . She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and\u00a0prayer night and day.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n A search of \u201cworship\u201d in the NT came up with 82 results<\/a>; but only one also mentioned \u201cprayer\u201d (Lk 2:37 above). Conversely, if we search \u201cpray[er]\u201d in the NT, we get 161 hits, and again, Luke 2:37 is the only verse that directly connects it with \u201cworship.\u201d\u00a0The phrase \u201cworship God in prayer\u201d never appears in the Bible. Nor does the phrase, \u201cworship him in prayer.\u201d I looked up instances of \u201cpray[er]\u201d and \u201cpraise\u201d together and in the sole appearance, they were differentiated:<\/p>\n James 5:13<\/strong> Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Jesus compares prayer to the request made by a son to a father (itself obviously not worship):<\/p>\n Matthew 7:7-11 <\/strong>\u201cAsk, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. [8] For every one who\u00a0asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.\u00a0[9] Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? [10] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? [11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! (cf. 6:8; 18:19; 21:22; Mk 11:24; Lk 11:9-13; Jn 11:22; 14:13-14; 15:7, 16; 16:23-24, 26)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n James expands upon the concept of prayer as \u201casking\u201d that Jesus had established:<\/p>\n James 4:2-3<\/strong> You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war. You do not have, because you do not ask. [3] You\u00a0ask\u00a0and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. (cf. 1:5-6; Col 1:9; 1 Jn 3:22; 5:14-16)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n None of this proves that there is an inexorable connection between prayer and worship. Quite the contrary. It seems to be almost wholly a Protestant man-made tradition, to make such a close and unbiblical association. Again, the two may<\/em>, of course be together in a particular prayer \/ act of worship, but it\u2019s certainly not every time<\/em> prayer is mentioned in the Bible. My friend, Catholic apologist Tim Staples makes a great point about this:<\/p>\n When Catholics say we are\u00a0praying\u00a0<\/em>to God and\u00a0praying<\/em>\u00a0to saints we are talking about qualitatively different things as different as a monkey is to a man. The Protestant generally only has one species in mind when he thinks of prayer\u2014prayer to God that necessarily includes\u00a0adoration.\u00a0<\/em>But one need only pick up a dictionary to discover there are in truth different definitions and therefore different usages of the same word in English.<\/p>\n Prayer:<\/strong><\/p>\n The act or practice of praying.<\/p>\n Prayer is not, by definition,\u00a0necessarily equated with the adoration that is due God alone. Prayer\u00a0can\u00a0<\/em>certainly involve an act of adoration when it is directed to God, but the term does not necessarily denote adoration. It can simply mean \u201can entreaty.\u201d<\/p>\n In Old English we did not have so much of a difficulty here. One could say to another, \u201cPray tell\u2026\u201d or, \u201cI pray thee my lord\u2026\u201d In fact, the King James Bible gives us many examples of the term \u201cprayer\u201d being used analogous to the way Catholics use it when we \u201cpray\u201d to saints. With a touch of Old English, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in I Kings 2:20, the KJV has her say: \u201cI pray thee, say me not nay.\u201d There was never a question here of whether the King James Bible was presenting Bathsheba as adoring her son as God, or\u00a0praying\u00a0<\/em>to him in a way that is forbidden. It was not. Nor are Catholics when we\u00a0pray<\/em>\u00a0to saints. We certainly\u00a0honor\u00a0<\/em>them when we pray to them. In other words, we do not talk to them like we talk to the boys at the local bar and grill. We show great respect and reverence for them. But we do not adore them as we adore God alone. And we also\u00a0petition\u00a0<\/em>them for their prayers because Scripture makes very clear that we\u00a0need\u00a0<\/em>each other as members of the body of Christ (see I Cor. 12:12-27). (\u201cIs Prayer Synonymous with Worship?,\u201d<\/a> Catholic Answers Magazine<\/em>, 3-31-13)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n I love this because it\u2019s an examination of biblical usage. Even in RSV, which is modern English, the phrase, \u201cI pray you\u201d appears 32 times<\/a>, including twice in the NT (Lk 14:18-19): almost all referring to other human beings. This is clearly not \u201cworship.\u201d If it is, then the Bible explicitly and frequently supports creature-worship. Both sides agree that it does not. So this is a use of the word \u201cpray\u201d that can\u2019t possibly<\/em> mean \u201cworship.\u201d Likewise, with God Himself.<\/p>\n In the King James Version from 1611, \u201cI pray thee\u201d appears 164 times<\/a>, with the same general meaning, including eight times in the NT, and \u201cI pray you\u201d another 35 times<\/a>, including in Acts 27:34. My favorite instance is the rich man praying to Abraham. We know this is literally a prayer, because he makes three petitionary requests<\/em> \u2014 all turned down by Abraham, but without any rebuke such as, \u201cwhy are you praying to me<\/em>? Pray only to God!\u201d And this is a true story, straight from the lips of our Lord Jesus:<\/p>\n Luke 16:22-25, 27-31<\/strong> (KJV) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham\u2019s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue<\/span><\/strong>; for I am tormented in this flame. [25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. . . . [27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father\u2019s house:<\/span> <\/strong>[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.<\/span><\/strong> [29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. [30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.<\/span><\/strong> [31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Was the rich man worshiping<\/em> Abraham, because he prayed to him, and made (count \u2019em!) three prayer requests? Clearly not. This is an explicit biblical proof of invocation of a man in prayer, and of such prayer not<\/em> being worship. But I have maintained that this is usually true of prayers to God, too. Most are not worship or adoration or praise, as we have seen. It\u2019s a very weak Protestant argument, but it\u2019s used against Catholic invocation of saints. The problem is that it\u2019s insufficiently biblical, as so often happens in Protestant apologetics (ironically enough).<\/p>\n Lastly, not all Protestants agree with Jordan on this matter. An article on the Protestant site, JustDisciple<\/em> stated:<\/p>\n What are worship and prayer? Worship and prayer are two different spiritual disciplines that help you develop spiritual maturity in your relationship with God. Prayer is primarily a vehicle for communicating with God and allowing him to communicate with you. Worship is primarily an action focused on glorifying God. . . .<\/p>\n While there is some overlap between prayer and worship, they are still two distinct disciplines. This is largely due to their goals.\u00a0The goal of worship is the glory of God.\u00a0The goal of prayer is communication with God.\u00a0While prayer can achieve the goal of bringing glory to God it is not the primary focus. (\u201cWorship & Prayer: The Similarities And Differences Explained\u201d<\/a>)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n So again, it ain\u2019t just a \u201cCatholic thing\u201d. It\u2019s a biblical thing that we can agree on. Invocation of saints is more controversial, but it\u2019s explicitly biblical as well. See Luke 16 above; and there are several other biblical indications<\/a>.<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty-five books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>,\u00a0or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/p>\n Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/p>\n PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. Here\u2019s also\u00a0a second page to get to PayPal<\/a>. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including\u00a0Zelle<\/a>), see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2024\/03\/Prayer.jpg\")
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\n\uf0b7 We pray for daily needs to be met,
\n\uf0b7 For forgiveness for wrongdoings, strength to resist temptation and protection from danger.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n