Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper<\/a>\u00a0is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular\u00a0Just & Sinner<\/em>\u00a0<\/a>YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a\u00a0doctrinally traditional Lutheranism<\/a>, similar to the Lutheran Church \u2013 Missouri Synod). He has authored\u00a0several books<\/a>, as well as\u00a0theological articles<\/a>\u00a0in a variety of publications. All my Bible citations are from RSV, unless otherwise indicated. Jordan\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n This is my 13th reply to Jordan (many more to come, because I want to interact with the best, most informed Protestant opponents). All of these respectful critiques can be found in the \u201cReplies to Jordan Cooper\u201d section at the top of my Lutheranism web page<\/a>.<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n \u201cPlease Hit \u2018Subscribe\u2019\u201d!<\/strong><\/span> If you\u2019ve received benefit from this or any of my 4,500+ articles, please follow this blog by signing up (email address) on the sidebar to the right, above the icon bar, \u201cSign Me Up!\u201d: to receive notice when I post a new blog article. This is the equivalent of subscribing to a YouTube<\/em>\u00a0channel. Please also consider\u00a0following me on Twitter \/ X<\/a>\u00a0and purchasing\u00a0one or more of my 55 books<\/a>. All of this helps me get more exposure and concretely supports my full-time apologetics work. Thanks so much and happy reading!<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n This is a response to a portion of Jordan\u2019s YouTube video, \u201cA Critique of Prayer to the Saints\u201d<\/a> (4-19-20).<\/p>\n 30:52 To argue for prayers to the saints, what you\u2019re arguing for is not only the idea that saints are in heaven praying for the church generally before the Father and seeing kind of the events of the world unpacked themselves. What they\u2019re saying is that the saints have an almost divine omniscience, because the saints themselves are to some degree able to hear the prayers of so many people. I mean, think about the Blessed Virgin Mary or think about St. Peter\u00a0 . . . how many prayers St. Peter must have to actually hear, so that he can hear every word that is spoken by everyone that is praying to him and not just out loud but even prayers that are in your head. So it gives the saints almost this kind of divine quality or this divine attribute of almost omniscience, to the point that they\u2019re able to hear everything both externally and even in people\u2019s minds. And we\u2019re simply never told that those are qualities that are true of any creature . . . that is never ascribed to mere creatures, so that is the second major theological problem that that we\u00a0have with that.<\/span><\/p>\n The gist of this oft-expressed Protestant criticism is that there is something logically possible, that is, nevertheless, not<\/em> possible for God to do. God can\u2019t grant these abilities to saints in heaven, even though angels already somehow possess them. Who gave<\/em> them their powers? So God can\u2019t or wouldn\u2019t do this, we are told. I\u2019m not at all sure of that. These powers need not be \u201comniscient\u201d (having all knowledge) at all. It\u2019s simply extraordinary abilities, combined with being outside of time in heaven. And indeed there are many biblical examples of extraordinary characteristics that all human beings who make it to heaven will have, and I submit that they could explain hearing \u201cmillions\u201d of prayers or requests for intercession. Let\u2019s look at some of those aspects in the Bible, shall we?:<\/p>\n St. Paul states that now we only \u201csee in a mirror dimly\u201d and \u201cknow in part\u201d (1 Cor 13:12), and that \u201ceye has not seen\u201d (1 Cor 2:9) what God has \u201cprepared\u201d for us. We shall \u201csee his face\u201d (Rev 22:4) and see Him \u201cface to face\u201d (1 Cor 13:12), and He will be our \u201clight\u201d (Rev 22:5). Saints in heaven \u201cshall understand fully\u201d (1 Cor 13:12), and possess \u201cknowledge\u201d that he describes as \u201cperfect\u201d(1 Cor 13:9-10), and \u201can eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison\u201d (2 Cor 4:17): \u201cthe glory that is to be revealed\u201d (Rom 8:18), \u201cthe glorious liberty of the children of God\u201d (Rom 8:21), and \u201ceternal glory in Christ\u201d (1 Pet 5:10).<\/p>\n St. Paul implies that believers even while on the earth can achieve \u201cthe knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding\u201d (Col 1:9) and can obtain \u201call the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God\u2019s mystery, of Christ\u201d (Col 1:10). And they \u201cshall be like\u201d Jesus (1 Jn 3:2) and fully \u201cunited to the Lord\u201d and \u201cone spirit with him\u201d (1 Cor 6:17). Christians \u201care being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another\u201d (2 Cor 3:18). This will be perfected in heaven. Saints in heaven will be \u201cfilled with all the fulness of God\u201d (Eph 3:19) and \u201cthe fulness of Christ\u201d (Eph 4:13) and will be fully \u201cpartakers of the divine nature\u201d (2 Pet 1:4) and totally free of and from sin (Rev 19:8; 21:8, 27; 22:14-15). Hebrews 12:1 (\u201cwe are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses\u201d) proves that the saints are quite aware of happenings on earth (especially when we examine it closely<\/a> and see what commentators think).<\/p>\n If we\u2019re \u201cequal to\u201d angels after death, according to Jesus (Lk 20:36), and \u201clike angels\u201d (Mt 22:30; Mk 12:25), and we know that angels communicate with those on earth (many examples in the Bible; e.g., \u201cthe angel of God called to Hagar from heaven\u201d \u2014 Gen 21:17), then it stands to reason that the dead saints will by analogy be able to do the same thing. Jesus said, \u201cI tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents\u201d (Lk 15:10). That\u2019s an interior disposition. If angels know that, and we will be \u201cequal\u201d to them, then dead saints in heaven can certainly hear a petition, since by analogy to the angels they\u2019ll be able to discern interior thoughts.<\/p>\n Moreover, there is the whole theology of God indwelling us. We\u2019re described as \u201cGod\u2019s temple\u201d (1 Cor 3:16-17; 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:22). God \u201cwill live in\u201d us (2 Cor 6:16). He\u2019s \u201cin\u201d us (1 Jn 3:24; 4:4). God \u201cabides in\u201d us (1 Jn 3:24; 4:12-13, 15-16). Jesus abides in us (Jn 6:56; 15:4), and He is \u201cin\u201d us (Jn 14:20; 17:23; Rom 8:10; Col 1:27). He dwells in our \u201chearts\u201d (Eph 3:17). The Holy Spirit is \u201cwithin\u201d us (Ezek 37:14). He\u2019s \u201cwith\u201d us (Jn 14:16), \u201cdwells\u201d \u201cin\u201d or \u201cwith\u201d us (Jn 14:17; Rom 8:9, 11; 1 Cor 3:16), and is in our \u201chearts\u201d (2 Cor 1:22; 3:3; Gal 4:6). All of these factors will no doubt be all the more intensified in heaven, and serious disciples have already experienced them to a large degree on earth. We become like God, united to Him.<\/p>\n Is it reasonable, then, to believe that even though the saints in heaven possess all of these extraordinary \u2014 and largely unknown and probably incomprehensible to us \u2014 characteristics, the ability to hear an intercessory request or a petition (or even millions, having transcended time) is not\u00a0<\/i>part of their abilities? That position is neither plausible nor biblical. Facebook friend Peter Rowe<\/span><\/span><\/a> made a great related comment on my Facebook page:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n Excellent point! If we (distantly echoing God\u2019s creative capabilities) can make a computer that can do all that, certainly God the Creator can make it possible for a person to do so. Their love will be perfected, and will certainly include intercession. We already know for sure that saints and angels present our prayers to God in heaven (Rev 5:8; 8:3-4). What are they doing<\/i> with them and how did they obtain them? The most logical, feasible explanation is that they had received prayers (technically, intercessory requests) from people on earth as intermediaries to God.<\/p>\n The notion of a human being in heaven being outside of time and in eternity, which is essentially different from time, is not merely Catholic thought. Once one has this view, answering of millions of prayers is entirely possible (and I would say, likely<\/em>, given these departed saints\u2019 perfect love). What Jordan casually assumes is impossible is not at all: not if God wills it. Protestant writer Ray Stedman wrote:<\/p>\n We constantly think of heaven as a continuation on a larger and perfect scale of life on earth. Locked into our world of space and time, we find it very difficult to imagine life proceeding on any other terms. But we must remember that time is time and eternity is eternity and never the twain shall meet. . . .<\/p>\n The thing we must remember in dealing with this matter of life beyond death is that when time ends, eternity begins. They are not the same, and we must not make them the same. Time means that we are locked into a pattern of chronological sequence which we are helpless to break. For example, all human beings sharing the same room will experience an earthquake together. While there are varying feelings and reactions, everyone will feel the earthquake at the same time. But in eternity events do not follow a sequential pattern. (\u201cTime and Eternity\u201d<\/a>; ch. 9 of the book, Authentic Christianity<\/em>, 1996)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The great Catholic author and apologist Peter Kreeft similarly expressed the state of those in heaven as follows:<\/p>\n A related consequence of all time being present in eternity is that we will be able to travel in time when we are in eternity. From eternity time is manipulable: expandable, compressible, reversible, divisible. It is silly-putty time. \u201cWith the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day\u201d [2 Peter 3:8], and just as He plays time like an accordion, expanding and contracting it at will, so can we when we live in Him. As an author can move backward or forward in a story, God can move in time, and so can we, once we get out of the story and into the Author. (Every Thing You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven . . . But Never Dreamed of Asking<\/em>, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1990, 168-169)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n So where is the direct proof of our being outside of ordinary time as we know it, in heaven? We have already seen it. All we have to do is combine 2 Peter 3:8 (God being outside of ordinary time) with passages such as those that state we \u201cshall be like\u201d Jesus (1 Jn 3:2) and fully \u201cunited to the Lord\u201d and \u201cone spirit with him\u201d (1 Cor 6:17), \u201cfilled with all the fulness of God\u201d (Eph 3:19) and \u201cthe fulness of Christ\u201d (Eph 4:13) and fully \u201cpartakers of the divine nature\u201d (2 Pet 1:4). Moreover, we \u201cabide in\u201d God (1 Jn 3:24; 4:13, 15-16), and specifically, abide in Jesus (Jn 6:56; 15:4). We\u2019re \u201cin\u201d Jesus (Jn 14:20; Phil 4:7). We\u2019re \u201cin\u201d the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9), and \u201cpossess the Spirit\u201d (1 Cor 2:13).<\/p>\n I think it\u2019s quite reasonable and plausible to posit that having a different relationship to time will be part of that. And once that is granted, answering all those prayers (that may be simultaneous according to our earth-time, but not in heavenly time-eternity) poses no problem or \u201cdifficulty\u201d at all. It\u2019s been shown from the Bible alone. Protestants accept all these verses. Luther and Lutherans believe in theosis<\/em> (union with God). Yet they also believe that we\u2019re not identical to God in all respects. But we can be \u201clike\u201d Him in the matter of our relationship to time in heaven. God is omnipotent. If He wants this, He can make it happen; no problem! I think we know enough from Scripture and from the very nature of love (His and that of the saints and angels) to know that He does<\/em> want it.<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty-five books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>,\u00a0or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/p>\n Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/p>\n PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. Here\u2019s also\u00a0a second page to get to PayPal<\/a>. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including\u00a0Zelle<\/a>), see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n Photo credit: <\/strong>EdenMoon<\/a> (4-17-20)<\/span> [Pixabay<\/a> \/ Pixabay Content License<\/a>]<\/p>\n Summary<\/em>: Jordan Cooper expresses the myth about the impossibility of saints hearing millions of prayers at once. I provide much biblical support for its possibility & likelihood.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Including a Summary of the Extraordinary, Unfathomable Characteristics of Redeemed Human Beings in Heaven Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper\u00a0is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular\u00a0Just & Sinner\u00a0YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a\u00a0doctrinally traditional Lutheranism, similar to the Lutheran Church […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":81962,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[583,415,206,50],"tags":[18722,201,1263,372,18563,461],"class_list":["post-81956","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hell-satan-last-things","category-lutheranism","category-saints-purgatory-penance","category-salvation-justification","tag-millions-of-prayers","tag-communion-of-saints","tag-intercession-of-saints","tag-invocation-of-saints","tag-jordan-cooper","tag-omniscience"],"yoast_head":"\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2024\/03\/TimeEternity2.jpg\")
<\/a><\/p>\n\n