Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper<\/a>\u00a0is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular\u00a0Just & Sinner<\/em>\u00a0<\/a>YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a\u00a0doctrinally traditional Lutheranism<\/a>, similar to the Lutheran Church \u2013 Missouri Synod). He has authored\u00a0several books<\/a>, as well as\u00a0theological articles<\/a>\u00a0in a variety of publications. All my Bible citations are from RSV, unless otherwise indicated. Jordan\u2019s words will be in\u00a0blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n This is my 15th reply to Jordan (many more to come, because I want to interact with the best, most informed Protestant opponents). All of these respectful critiques can be found in the \u201cReplies to Jordan Cooper\u201d section at the top of my Lutheranism web page<\/a>.<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n \u201cPlease Hit \u2018Subscribe\u2019\u201d!<\/strong><\/span>\u00a0If you\u2019ve received benefit from this or any of my 4,500+ articles, please follow this blog by signing up (email address) on the sidebar to the right, above the icon bar, \u201cSign Me Up!\u201d: to receive notice when I post a new blog article. This is the equivalent of subscribing to a\u00a0YouTube<\/em>\u00a0channel. Please also consider\u00a0following me on Twitter \/ X<\/a>\u00a0and purchasing\u00a0one or more of my 55 books<\/a>. All of this helps me get more exposure and concretely supports my full-time apologetics work. Thanks so much and happy reading!<\/p>\n *****<\/p>\n This is a response to a portion of Jordan\u2019s YouTube video, \u201cA Further Critique of Offering Prayers to the Saints\u201d<\/a> (10-5-20).<\/p>\n 32:20 The New Testament doesn\u2019t mention prayers [to] the saints\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n 38:23 they also don\u2019t appear in Scripture<\/span><\/p>\n 47:24 the New Testament itself . . .\u00a0 is silent about any prayers [to] the saints<\/span><\/p>\n I already responded to this claim at length in a reply to Jordan<\/a> almost two years ago. But let me highlight the NT evidence (with corresponding references to OT evidence):<\/p>\n 1) The rich man in Hades (whom tradition has named \u201cDives\u201d) petitions Abraham three times in prayer (Luke 16:19-31). In the KJV it even says, \u201cI pray thee.\u201d From my earlier reply:<\/p>\n This shows (in a fascinating way) that not only can dead saints\u00a0hear<\/em>\u00a0our requests, they also have some measure of\u00a0power to carry them out on their own<\/em>. Abraham is asked to \u201csend\u201d a dead man to appear to Dives\u2019 brothers, in order for them to avoid damnation (yet another [potential] instance of dead men \u2014 like the prophet Samuel to Saul \u2014 communicating to those on the earth). Abraham doesn\u2019t deny that he is\u00a0able to potentially send Lazarus<\/em>\u00a0to do such a thing; he only denies that it would\u00a0work<\/em>, or that it is\u00a0necessary<\/em>\u00a0(by the logic of \u201cif they don\u2019t respond to greater factor x, nor will they to lesser factor y\u201d).<\/p>\n Therefore, it is assumed in the story that Abraham could have possibly done so on his own. And this is all told, remember, by our Lord Jesus. It is disputed whether it is a parable or not (several textual factors suggest that it is\u00a0not<\/em>; e.g., parables do not use proper names), but even if it is, it nevertheless cannot contain things that are untrue, lest Jesus be guilty of leading people into heresy by means of false illustrations or analogies within His common teaching tool: the parable.<\/p>\n Whether Dives was dead or not is also irrelevant to the argument at hand, since standard Protestant theology holds that no one can make such a request to anyone but God (and Dr. Cooper reiterates this as pertains to Lutheranism). He\u2019s asking Abraham to send Lazarus to him, and then to his brothers, to prevent them from going to hell. That is very much, prayer: asking for supernatural aid from those who have left the earthly life and attained sainthood and perfection, with God. . . .<\/p>\n Abraham is functioning as a mini-mediator. He is being asked to accomplish certain things. An intercessory request was made of him, not God. In fact, God is never mentioned in the entire story. Why did Jesus teach in this fashion? Why did He teach that Dives was asking Abraham to do things that Protestant theology would hold that only\u00a0God<\/em>\u00a0can do? And why is the whole story about him asking\u00a0Abraham<\/em>\u00a0for requests, rather than\u00a0going directly to God<\/em>\u00a0and asking\u00a0Him<\/em>: which is required by Lutheran and general Protestant theology? [cf. King Saul speaking to the dead prophet Samuel, who appeared to him after death, and making a petition (1 Sam 28:15). Samuel \u2014 like Abraham \u2014 never said that Saul shouldn\u2019t have done that.]<\/p><\/blockquote>\n 2) It was thought by bystanders at the cross that Jesus may have been calling upon Elijah (Mt 27:46-50; cf. Mk 15:34-36). An argument for invocation of dead saints can be constructed from this (again, I cite my earlier reply):<\/p>\n The \u201cbystanders\u201d are presented as allies of Jesus, since one of them gave Him a drink, in the next verse (Matthew 27:48). The next verse (27:49) again shows that this was common belief at the time: \u201cBut the others said, \u2018Wait, let us see whether Eli\u2019jah will come to save him.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n Thus, it was believed that one could pray to one such as Elijah (who had already appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration), and that he had power to come and give aid; to \u201csave\u201d a person (in this case, Jesus from a horrible death).\u00a0It\u2019s not\u00a0presented<\/em>\u00a0as if they are wrong, and in light of other related Scriptures it is more likely that they are\u00a0correct<\/em>\u00a0in thinking that this was a permitted scenario.<\/p>\n Jesus, after all, had already referred to Elijah, saying that he was the prototype for John the Baptist (Mt 11:14; 17:10-13; cf. Lk 1:17 from the angel Gabriel), and it could also have been known that Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration (Mt 17:1-6), if these were His followers.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n 3) Departed saints in heaven pray for those on earth, and\/or present their prayers to God (Rev 5:8). It\u2019s God\u2019s will that they are involved in the process of our prayers getting to God. It\u2019s a reasonable supposition, then, that they have also heard<\/em> our prayers. (cf. Jer 15:1: Moses and Samuel; 2 Macc 15:12-16).<\/p>\n 4) Angels in heaven pray for those on earth, and\/or present their prayers to God (Rev 8:2-3). It\u2019s God\u2019s will that they are involved in the process of our prayers getting to God. It\u2019s a reasonable supposition, then, that they have also heard<\/em> our prayers (cf. Tobit 12:15). In fact, in the OT, Lot made two petitionary prayer requests to angels, and they were both granted (Gen 19:15, 18-21).<\/p>\n 5) St. John, when he was on the earth (on Patmos) spoke to one of the \u201celders\u201d (dead saints) in heaven (Rev 7:14) and they spoke back to him (Rev 5:5; 7:13-17).<\/p>\n 6) St. John, when he was on the earth (on Patmos) spoke to an angel in heaven (Rev 10:9) and angels spoke to him from heaven (Rev 1:1-2, 9; 10:9, 11; 11:1-2; 17:1-2; 7-18; 19:9-10; 21:9, 15; 22:6-11; cf. Gen 21:17).<\/p>\n 7) Jesus Himself invoked a dead person twice: Jairus\u2019 daughter (Mk 5:41: \u201cLittle girl, I say to you, arise\u201d; cf. Lk 8:54: \u201cChild, arise\u201d) and Lazarus (Jn 11:43: \u201cLazarus, come out\u201d). If someone objects that this is a special case because He\u2019s God, then we have St. Peter invoking a dead person, too: \u201cturning to the body he said, \u2018Tabitha, rise.\u2019 And she opened her eyes,\u201d (Acts 9:40).<\/p>\n 8) Jesus talked to the dead Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-4; cf. Mk 9:2-5; Lk 9:29-33).<\/p>\n 9) If God desired no contact at all between those living on the earth and dead saints, then it\u2019s beyond odd that right after Jesus died, \u201cmany bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many\u201d (Mt 27:52-53). Presumably, some or many or all of these talked<\/em> to people and had conversations with them, just as Saul, Moses, Elijah, and the risen Jesus did when they came back from the dead.<\/p>\n 10) Many commentators believe<\/a>, and the traditional interpretation of Revelation 11:3 holds, that the \u201ctwo witnesses\u201d referred to were Enoch and Elijah come back to earth. Neither one died (they were taken up to heaven), and so they return and\u00a0do<\/em>\u00a0die in this instance (Rev 11:7-12) and the Bible informs us that again they \u201cwent up to heaven in a cloud\u201d.<\/p>\n 11) I have made an extended biblical argument, in another recent reply to Jordan<\/a>, about the extraordinary characteristics of saints in heaven, which lend themselves to a belief that they can not only hear our intercessions (Hebrews 12:1<\/a> and Revelation 6:9-10 show their awareness<\/em>), but would also respond to them in charity, by the analogy of their presenting our prayers to God (#3 above).<\/p>\n 12) The vast amount of biblical information concerning angels and their contact with human beings also shows that there is a God-willed connection between heaven and earth; between men and angels. To highlight just some of that: Matthew 18:10 instructs us that each person has a guardian angel. St. Stephen said that the law was \u201cdelivered by angels\u201d (Acts 7:53). Angels appeared to and informed the Blessed Virgin Mary (Lk 1:26-38), Zechariah (Lk 1:11-20), St. Joseph \u2014 in a dream (Mt 1:20-21), Philip (Acts 8:26), and the shepherds in the field when Jesus was born (Lk 2:8-15). They are \u201cministering spirits sent forth to serve\u201d the elect (Heb 1:14). And that\u2019s just from the New Testament. It\u2019s not far from all of this to speculate that we could also ask their assistance in an intercessory fashion. We know for a fact that Lot already did that in Abraham\u2019s time, and that his two petitions were granted (Gen 19:15, 18-21).<\/p>\n That\u2019s an awful lot of material consistent with, highly suggestive of, or literally flat-out biblical examples<\/em> of the intercessory prayer of saints and angels and general permissible, God-willed contact with the dead or angels from or in heaven in the NT \u2014 a thing that Jordan expressly denied was present at all, by making a \u201cuniversal negative\u201d denial in nine words. I provide extensive proof<\/em> and twelve lines of argument from Bible passages.<\/p>\n Take your pick. Jordan would have to respond to the above and offer superior counter-explanations, for all of it to be discounted and entirely dismissed. That\u2019s a pretty uphill battle, if you ask me. I\u2019d love to see answers to and attempted refutations of all of the above. Then it could be a truly serious<\/em> and constructive, productive Catholic-Protestant discussion, where our<\/em> proofs are addressed head on, in a way that rarely ever happens.<\/p>\n 36:01 You do have it [prayers to the saints] developing later, but you don\u2019t have it in those major early sources and yeah again that\u2019s significant . . . of course what you can argue is the Newman development hypothesis: that it was this kind of development of doctrine of prayer to the saints that came out of a recognition of things like the communion of the saints and what are these very scriptural themes, and I would argue that that is true too, in that these did develop from what are biblical\u00a0ideas of honor to the saints and the communion of saints and union of the church in heaven and the beginning of the church on earth . . . but then it does develop into what I say is an unbiblical doctrine and I guess one who holds to the Newman development hypothesis can say, \u201cwell it did develop, but it developed in a way that is good.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n That\u2019s exactly<\/em> what we would say (and I write as one whose primary influence in becoming Catholic, was precisely Newman\u2019s Essay on Development<\/em><\/a>). I\u2019ve just shown how there are twelve different types of biblical arguments (all even based in the New Testament logically and theologically leading to and harmonious with the proposition of the invocation and intercession of saints. So it may have developed slowly at first (like many doctrines), but eventually, based on, I submit, reflection on all these biblical motifs, it legitimately developed, because more than enough scriptural information to form the essential presuppositions was already present from the beginning of the Church. And a big part of the Protestant objection to the intercession of saints are the false premises (which I just dealt with in reply to Jordan) holding that all prayer is worship<\/a>, and that it\u2019s impossible for saints to answer many thousands of prayers<\/a> without being quasi-omniscient.<\/p>\n 45:08\u00a0 what we don\u2019t have is confirmation\u00a0that the saints can hear the thoughts of our heads and the intentions of our hearts and can them respond in some way to that\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n Jordan just got through establishing that the saints in heaven are actively concerned about those on the earth and that they pray, so that\u2019s one premise we agree on. Now he takes it further, and it\u2019s a good question. This is harder to verify, but I think I have done it through a fairly strong deduction and analogy from what we know in Holy Scripture. I already made the argument in my second reply back<\/a> to Jordan, but here it is in a nutshell (repetition being a great teacher, and condensed, abridged arguments often helpful to many):<\/p>\n Saints in heaven \u201cshall understand fully\u201d (1 Cor 13:12), and possess \u201cknowledge\u201d that Paul describes as \u201cperfect\u201d(1 Cor 13:9-10) and will be \u201cfilled with all the fulness of God\u201d (Eph 3:19) and \u201cthe fulness of Christ\u201d (Eph 4:13) and will be fully \u201cpartakers of the divine nature\u201d (2 Pet 1:4). Now, I happen to think that all of that amazing knowledge granted by God\u2019s love and power would include<\/em> knowledge of \u201cthe thoughts of our heads and the intentions of our hearts\u201d. The more we become like God, as those verses teach, the more things we will have in common with Him. Knowing thoughts would be one such thing.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n But there is a second related argument that can be made, too: if we\u2019re \u201cequal to\u201d angels after death, according to Jesus (Lk 20:36), and \u201clike angels\u201d (Mt 22:30; Mk 12:25), and we know that angels communicate with those on earth (many examples in the Bible; e.g., \u201cthe angel of God called to Hagar from heaven\u201d \u2014 Gen 21:17; see also #12 in my list of twelve arguments above), then it stands to reason that the dead saints will by analogy be able to do the same thing. Jesus said, \u201cI tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents\u201d (Lk 15:10). That\u2019s an interior disposition (how would an angel know that unless words to that effect were spoken or written?). If angels know that, and we will be \u201cequal\u201d to them, then dead saints in heaven can certainly hear a petition, since by analogy to the angels they\u2019ll be able to discern interior thoughts.<\/p>\n As to responding, we know they can do that, from concrete examples: Abraham with the rich man and Samuel with Saul. Both were petitioned and both refused the petitions themselves (without disputing the practice of asking them in the first place). The Bible gives no indication whatsoever that these instances of prayers to men were intrinsically wrong or forbidden. And in the case of Abraham, it\u2019s a story told by Jesus. Bottom line, the stories are presented as if Abraham and Samuel could have<\/em> possibly granted the petitions (if they had been asked according to God\u2019s will).<\/p>\n As it was, Samuel did give a correct prophecy that Saul would be killed in battle the next day. So he knew that; and it was in the future. He had the gift of prophecy from God. But this goes back to my point about the incredible knowledge saints will have in heaven. God can just as easily communicate to any saint who was asked to intercede, what the answer would be. God gives them the power to \u201c:hear\u201d our thoughts in the first place and to respond in some way, by the same power. It\u2019s all from God, as Paul stated: \u201cI worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me\u201d (1 Cor 15:10).<\/p>\n 49:26 this merit of the saints [that] can be transferred to the believer through the treasury of merit that is something that the Church has the ability to dispense merit to us . . . [is] extremely problematic and extremely unbiblical. It\u2019s just not taught in Scripture. There simply is no transfer of merit other than the merit of Christ himself and his righteousness counted to us; we are found righteous in him, but in terms of there being some kind of a human individual that has excess merit that they can transfer to\u00a0us and prayers to the saints being involved in that, this is of course a problem.<\/span><\/p>\n Not in Scripture at all (yet another universal negative that can easily be disproved)? That\u2019s news to me:<\/p>\n Deuteronomy 9:18-19\u00a0<\/strong>\u00a0Then\u00a0I lay prostrate before the LORD\u00a0as before,\u00a0forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water,\u00a0because of all the sin which you had committed, in doing what was evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. [19] For I was afraid of\u00a0the anger and hot displeasure which the LORD bore against you, so that he was ready to destroy you<\/em>. But the LORD hearkened to me that time also. (cf. 9:9; Ex 34:28)<\/p>\n Daniel 9:3-6, 16<\/strong>\u00a0Then I turned my face to the Lord God,\u00a0seeking him by\u00a0prayer and supplications with fasting and sackcloth and ashes<\/em>.\u00a0\u00a0[4] I\u00a0prayed\u00a0to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, \u201cO Lord, the great and terrible God, who keepest covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,\u00a0\u00a0[5]\u00a0we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from thy commandments and ordinances;\u00a0[6]\u00a0we have not listened to thy servants the prophets, who spoke in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. . . . [16]\u00a0\u00a0O Lord, according to all thy righteous acts,\u00a0let thy anger and thy wrath turn away from thy city Jerusalem<\/em>, thy holy hill; because for\u00a0our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people have become a byword among all who are round about us.<\/p>\n 2 Corinthians 1:5-6 <\/strong>For as we\u00a0share abundantly in Christ\u2019s sufferings<\/em>, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. [6] If we are afflicted, it is for your<\/em>\u00a0comfort and\u00a0salvation<\/em><\/strong>; . . .<\/p>\n 2 Corinthians 4:8-10, 15<\/strong> We are\u00a0afflicted in every way<\/em>, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; [9] persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; [10] always\u00a0carrying in the body the death of Jesus<\/em>, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. . . . [15] For\u00a0it is all for your sake<\/em>, so that as\u00a0grace extends<\/em>\u00a0to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.<\/p>\n 2 Corinthians 12:15<\/strong>\u00a0I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls<\/em>.<\/p>\n Ephesians 3:13<\/strong>\u00a0So I ask you not to lose heart over\u00a0what I am suffering for\u00a0you<\/em>,<\/p>\n Colossians 1:24<\/strong> Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake<\/em>, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ\u2019s afflictions for the sake of his body<\/em>, that is, the church,<\/p>\n 2 Timothy 2:9-10<\/strong> the gospel for which I am\u00a0suffering<\/em>\u00a0and wearing fetters like a criminal. But the word of God is not fettered.\u00a0 [10] Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect<\/em>, that they also may obtain salvation<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Also, it can be argued that if a holy person prays for another and their prayer is granted (because the \u201cprayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects\u201d: Jas 5:16), then that is merit transferred from the holy person to others. They benefit from it. It\u2019s the same principle.<\/p>\n Genesis 20:7\u00a0<\/strong>Now then restore the man\u2019s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you, and you shall live. . . .<\/p>\n Numbers 14:17-20<\/strong> And now, I pray thee, let the power of the LORD be great as thou hast promised, saying, [18] `The LORD is slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation.\u2019 [19] Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray thee, according to the greatness of thy steadfast love, and according as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.\u201d [20] Then the LORD said, \u201cI have pardoned, according to your word;<\/p>\n Deuteronomy 10:10\u00a0<\/strong>I stayed on the mountain, as at the first time, forty days and forty nights, and the LORD hearkened to me that time also; the LORD was unwilling to destroy you.<\/p>\n 1 Samuel 7:8\u00a0<\/strong>And the people of Israel said to Samuel, \u201cDo not cease to cry to the LORD our God for us, that he may save us from the hand of the Philistines.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n 56:41 Roman Catholic listeners will probably have plenty of retorts and responses to this, so I\u2019ll be looking forward to those as well.<\/span><\/p>\n Again, I hope that Jordan chooses to respond to my respectful criticisms. Whoever is confident in his position loves to do so. I certainly do. I would be delighted to receive the sort of Bible-soaked, in-depth criticisms that I offer to others.<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n Practical Matters<\/em><\/strong>: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site) or\u00a0fifty-five books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0become Catholic<\/a>\u00a0or to\u00a0return to the Church<\/a>,\u00a0or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>.<\/p>\n Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I\u2019m always in need of more funds: especially\u00a0monthly<\/em>\u00a0support. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a\u00a0full-time Catholic apologist<\/a>, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.<\/p>\n PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. Here\u2019s also\u00a0a second page to get to PayPal<\/a>. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including\u00a0Zelle<\/a>), see my page:\u00a0About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.\u00a0Thanks a million<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0from the bottom of my heart!<\/p>\n *<\/p>\n ***<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n Photo credit: <\/strong>Photograph by Dr Dawn Tames (3-9-04)\u00a0<\/span>[Flickr<\/a>\u00a0\/\u00a0CC BY-SA 2.0 license<\/a>]<\/p>\n Summary<\/em>: Jordan Cooper denies any biblical evidence for the invocation of saints. I provide twelve biblical arguments for that & more for merit and redemptive suffering.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" 12-Point Summary + Biblical Evidence for the Treasury of Merit and Redemptive Suffering Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper\u00a0is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular\u00a0Just & Sinner\u00a0YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a\u00a0doctrinally traditional Lutheranism, similar to the Lutheran Church \u2013 […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":82040,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[415,206],"tags":[201,2397,371,2396,372,18563],"class_list":["post-82025","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-lutheranism","category-saints-purgatory-penance","tag-communion-of-saints","tag-intercession-of-angels","tag-intercession-of-the-saints","tag-invocation-of-angels","tag-invocation-of-saints","tag-jordan-cooper"],"yoast_head":"\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2024\/03\/SunburstCommunionofSaints.jpg\")
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