{"id":90038,"date":"2025-02-27T11:32:57","date_gmt":"2025-02-27T15:32:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=90038"},"modified":"2025-02-27T11:32:57","modified_gmt":"2025-02-27T15:32:57","slug":"reply-to-francois-turretin-13-transubstantiation-pt-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2025\/02\/reply-to-francois-turretin-13-transubstantiation-pt-2.html","title":{"rendered":"Reply to Fran\u00e7ois Turretin #13: Transubstantiation, Pt. 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>Language of \u201cbread\u201d &amp; \u201cwine\u201d after consecration; transubstantiation and transformation: compendium from the Church fathers\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_90044\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-90044\" style=\"width: 640px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2025\/02\/JesusEucharist3.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-90044 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/572\/2025\/02\/JesusEucharist3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"640\" height=\"640\"><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-90044\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photo credit: image by VilmaAndrade (6-5-24) [Pixabay \/ Pixabay Content License]<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">Fran\u00e7ois Turretin\u00a0(1623-1687) was a Genevan-Italian\u00a0<a class=\"mw-redirect decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Reformed scholastic\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Reformed_scholastic\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Reformed scholastic<\/a>\u00a0theologian and renowned defender of the\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Calvinism\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Calvinism\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Calvinistic<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Orthodoxy\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Orthodoxy\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">(Reformed) orthodoxy<\/a>\u00a0represented by the\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Synod of Dort\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Synod_of_Dort\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Synod of Dort<\/a>, and was one of the authors of the\u00a0<i><a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Helvetic Consensus\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Helvetic_Consensus\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Helvetic Consensus<\/a><\/i>\u00a0(1675). He is generally considered to be the best Calvinist apologist besides John Calvin himself. His\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.wtsbooks.com\/products\/institutes-of-elenctic-theology-volumes-francis-turretin-9780875524566?variant=9781166014511\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>Institutes of Elenctic Theology<\/em><\/a>\u00a0(three volumes, Geneva, 1679\u20131685) used the\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Scholasticism\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Scholasticism\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">scholastic<\/a>\u00a0method. \u201cElenctic\u201d\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.collinsdictionary.com\/us\/dictionary\/english\/elenctic\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">means<\/a>\u00a0\u201crefuting\u00a0an argument by proving the\u00a0falsehood\u00a0of its\u00a0conclusion.\u201d Turretin contended against the conflicting Christian\u00a0 perspectives of Catholicism and\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Arminianism\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Arminianism<\/a>. It was a popular textbook; notably at\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Princeton Theological Seminary\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Princeton_Theological_Seminary\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Princeton Theological Seminary<\/a>, until it was replaced by\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Charles Hodge\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Charles_Hodge\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Charles Hodge<\/a>\u2018s\u00a0<i>Systematic Theology<\/i>\u00a0in the late 19th century. Turretin also greatly influenced the\u00a0<a class=\"mw-redirect decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" title=\"Puritan\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Puritan\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Puritans.<\/a><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">This is a reply to portions of a section of\u00a0<em>Institutes of Elenctic Theology<\/em>\u00a0(Vol. 3,\u00a0<em>19th Topic: The Sacraments\u00a0<\/em>\/<em>\u00a027th Question: Transubstantiation<\/em>). I utilize\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Institutes-Elenctic-Theology-3-Set\/dp\/0875524567\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">the edition<\/a>\u00a0translated by George Musgrave Giger and edited by James T. Dennison, Jr. (Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Phillipsburg, New Jersey: 1992 \/ 1994 \/ 1997; 2320 pages). It uses the KJV for Bible verses. I will use RSV unless otherwise indicated. \u00a0All installments of this series of replies can be found on my\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2011\/10\/calvinism-and-general-protestantism.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Calvinism &amp; General Protestantism web page<\/a>, under the category, \u201cReplies to Francois Turretin (1632-1687).\u201d Turretin\u2019s words will be in\u00a0<span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">blue<\/span>.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">*****<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Third, the testimony of faith bears specially upon this subject, which confirms the testimony of the senses and of reason and teaches that the invention of transubstantiation is no less repugnant to Scripture and the analogy of faith than to the senses and reason. Here belong all those arguments adduced from the Scriptures in the preceding question. To them we add the following. First, from the passages where the Eucharistic symbols retain the same name after the consecration which they had before (namely, the name of bread and wine). This would not have been done if in virtue of the consecratory words they had ceased to be bread and wine and were changed into the body and blood of Christ.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>St. Paul refers to \u201ceat this bread and drink the cup\u201d (1 Cor 11:26) but in the same context also expresses himself literally: \u201cWhoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. . . . \u00a0For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself\u201d (11:27, 29). He speaks in <em>both<\/em> ways, here and in 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 (\u201cThe bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?\u201d).<\/p>\n<p>Jesus did the same in John 6:51 (\u201cif any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh\u201d) and in Matthew 26:26 (\u201cJesus took bread, and . . . gave it to the disciples and said, \u201cTake, eat; this is my body\u201d). The metaphorical use refers to the accidents of outward appearance, while the literal use refers to transubstantiation and the body and blood of the Lord.\u00a0It seems to me the only way to interpret these two complementary motifs is as I have done (or else as Lutherans do: with bread and wine and the body and blood both continuing to be present after consecration). Otherwise, we are left with mere bread and wine being passed out, and no body and blood of Christ at all, or Jesus ludicrously being <em>equated<\/em> with mere bread and wine, and the Bible disallows that.<\/p>\n<p>Note also that Paul\u2019s use of \u201cdrink the cup\u201d (1 Cor 11:26-27). No one can literally \u201cdrink a cup\u201d and must drink what it contains. But how do we <em>know<\/em> what is in this cup? We know by the <em>contex<\/em>t and in this instance it highly suggests, or, I submit, virtually <em>demands<\/em>, a reading that it contains Jesus\u2019 <em>blood<\/em>. (\u201cIn the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, \u2018This cup is the new covenant in my blood . . .'\u201d: 1 Cor 11:25). Again, Paul writes in the previous chapter, \u201cThe cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?\u201d (1 Cor 10:16). It\u2019s the same scenario at the Last Supper (\u201cAnd he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, \u201cDrink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, . . .\u201d: Mt 26:27-28). Thus, three times, it\u2019s made crystal clear that we drink Christ\u2019s transubstantiated blood, just as He repeatedly said that we must do to be saved, in John 6.<\/p>\n<p>Beyond these factors, we could also say that general use of \u201cbread\u201d and \u201cwine\u201d after consecration is simply referring to the <em>appearance<\/em>, which is what Catholics refer to when we say that these are the \u201caccidents\u201d of the body and blood of Christ.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">But to what purpose would Paul so often without any limitation call it bread, if it was no longer bread?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>To call it what it <em>looked<\/em> like. In effect, he \u2014 like Jesus \u2014 was describing the accidental properties, since in context he<em> also<\/em> refers to \u201cthe body\u201d and\/or \u201cthe blood.\u201d The latter fact can\u2019t be ignored by Protestants bent on a wrongheaded, eisegetical symbolic interpretation.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">Would he not on this point have afforded to believers an occasion of erring by believing that to be true bread which was anything else than bread? <\/span><\/p>\n<p>No; he avoids giving that impression by also mentioning \u201cbody\u201d and \u201cblood\u201d in the same context. Jesus does the same, as shown above.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"> The eighth class is drawn from the testimony of a purer antiquity. That the dogma of transubstantiation was unknown to it, both their writings testify (as we have seen) and many of our opponents are compelled to confess, however they may try to draw them over to their side. Peter a Marca, Archbishop of Paris, yields to us the suffrages of most of the fathers, especially of Chrysostom, Epiphanius, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Theodoret, . . .<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">If it is afterwards inquired when and how this monstrous dogma was introduced into the church, the answer is easy. It is recent and newfangled, not a trace of it occurring among the ancients even down to the eighth century. . . .\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">It is evident that it was not settled before the Council of Trent. Now let our opponents go and glory in its antiquity. <\/span><\/p>\n<p>Glad to do so! One wearies of having to prove the same obvious thing over and over, but here goes. First, here are two prominent Protestant historians of Christian doctrine, providing an overview of patristic belief regarding the Eucharist:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>In general, this period, . . . was already very strongly inclined toward the doctrine of transubstantiation, and toward the Greek and Roman sacrifice of the mass, which are inseparable in so far as a real sacrifice requires the real presence of the victim\u2026\u2026\u00a0(Philip Schaff,\u00a0<i>History of the Christian Church<\/i>, vol. 3, A. D. 311-600, revised 5th edition, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, reprinted 1974, originally 1910, p. 500)<\/p>\n<p>Theodore [c. 350-428] set forth the doctrine of the real presence, and even a theory of sacramental transformation of the elements, in highly explicit language . . . \u2018At first it is laid upon the altar as a mere bread and wine mixed with water, but by the coming of the Holy Spirit it is transformed into body and blood, and thus it is changed into the power of a spiritual and immortal nourishment.\u2019 [Hom. catech. 16,36] these and similar passages in Theodore are an indication that the twin ideas of the transformation of the eucharistic elements and the transformation of the communicant were so widely held and so firmly established in the thought and language of the church that everyone had to acknowledge them. (Jaroslav Pelikan [at this time a Lutheran], <i>The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600)<\/i>, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1971, 236-237)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>And here is just a small representative sampling of the fathers themselves:<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Ignatius of Antioch<\/strong>: They abstain from the\u00a0Eucharist\u00a0and from\u00a0prayer, because they confess not the\u00a0Eucharist\u00a0to be the flesh of our Saviour\u00a0Jesus Christ, which suffered for our\u00a0sins, and which the\u00a0Father, of His goodness, raised up again. (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/0109.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Letter to the Smyrnaeans<\/a>, ch. 7)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Justin Martyr<\/strong>: Likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/0126.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>First Apology<\/em><\/a>, chapter 66)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Irenaeus<\/strong>: . . . the bread which is His body. . . . \u00a0the\u00a0Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ . . . (<em>Against Heresies<\/em>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/0103502.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">V, 2, 3<\/a>)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tertullian<\/strong>:\u00a0He declared plainly enough what He meant by the <em>bread<\/em>, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the <em>new<\/em> testament to be sealed \u201cin His blood,\u201d affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not <em>a body<\/em> of flesh.\u00a0 (<em>Against Marcion<\/em>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/03124.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Book IV, chapter 40<\/a>)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Origen<\/strong>: You know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise care lest a particle fall, and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish. . . .\u00a0 you observe such caution in keeping His Body, and properly so, . . . (Homilies on Exodus, 13, 3)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Cyprian<\/strong>: And therefore we ask that our bread\u2014that is, Christ\u2014may be given to us daily, that we who abide and live in Christ may not depart from His sanctification and body. (<em>On the Lord\u2019s Prayer<\/em> \/ <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/050704.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Treatise IV, 18<\/a>)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Hilary of Poitiers<\/strong>: As to the verity of the flesh and blood there is no room left for doubt. For now both from the declaration of the Lord Himself and our own faith, it is verily flesh and verily blood. And these when eaten and drunk, bring it to pass that both we are in Christ and Christ in us. Is not this true? (<em>The Trinity<\/em>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/330208.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Book VIII, 14, 17<\/a>)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Athanasius<\/strong>:\u00a0You will see the Levites bringing loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wondrous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body.\u00a0(Sermon to the Newly-Baptized)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Basil the Great<\/strong>: It is good and beneficial to communicate every day, and to partake of the holy body and blood of Christ. . . . once the priest has completed the offering . . . (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/3202093.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Letter XCIII<\/a>, <em>To the Patrician C\u00e6saria<\/em>)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Cyril of Jerusalem<\/strong>:\u00a0For as the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist before the invocation of the Holy and Adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, while after the invocation the Bread becomes the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ . . .\u00a0(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/310119.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>Catechetical Lecture<\/em> XIX, 7<\/a>)<\/p>\n<p>Having learnt these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ . . .\u00a0(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/310122.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>Catechetical Lecture<\/em> XXII, 9<\/a>)<\/p>\n<p>J. N. D. Kelly summarizes Cyril\u2019s eucharistic theology:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Even the pioneer of the conversion doctrine, Cyril of Jerusalem, is careful to indicate that the elements remain bread and wine to sensible perception, and to call them \u2018the antitype\u2019 of Christ\u2019s body and blood: \u2018the body is given to you in the figure of bread, and the blood is given to you in the figure of wine\u2019. (Cat. 22, 9; 23, 20; 22, 3)<\/p>\n<p>. . . He uses the verb \u2018change\u2019 or \u2018convert\u2019, pointing out that, since Christ transformed water into wine, which after all is akin to blood, at Cana, there can be no reason to doubt a similar miracle on the more august occasion of the eucharistic banquet. (Cat., 22, 2)<\/p>\n<p>Chrysostom exploits the materialist implications of the conversion theory to the full . . . Thus the elements have undergone a change, and Chrysostom describes them as being refashioned or transformed. In the fifth century conversionist views were taken for granted by Alexandrians and Antiochenes alike. According to Cyril . . . the visible objects are not types or symbols . . . but have been transformed through God\u2019s ineffable power into His body and blood. Elsewhere he remarks that God \u2018infuses life-giving power into the oblations and transmutes them into the virtue of His own flesh.\u2019 (Chrysostom: <em>In prod. Iud. hom<\/em>. I, 6; in Matt. hom. 82, 5; Cyril: In Matt. 26,27; In Luc. 22, 19) (<em>Early Christian Doctrines<\/em>, San Francisco: Harper &amp; Row, 5<sup>th<\/sup> revised edition, 1978, 441, 443-444)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>See also:<\/p>\n<p><a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2017\/08\/john-calvin-st-cyril-jerusalem-comparative-eucharistic-theology.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">John Calvin and St. Cyril of Jerusalem: Comparative Eucharistic Theology\u00a0<\/a>[6-14-04]<\/p>\n<p><a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2018\/10\/dialogue-on-calvins-patristic-eucharistic-theology.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Dialogue on Calvin\u2019s &amp; Patristic Eucharistic Theology (Especially St. Cyril of Jerusalem\u2019s Theology of the Eucharist)<\/a>\u00a0[6-19-04]<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Gregory of Nyssa<\/strong>: So nourishment (bread and wine) by becoming flesh and blood gives bulk to the\u00a0human\u00a0frame: the nourishment is the body. Just as in the case of other men, our Saviour\u2019s nourishment (bread and wine) was His Body; but these, nourishment and Body, were in Him changed into the Body of God by the Word indwelling. So now repeatedly the bread and wine, sanctified by the Word (the sacred Benediction), is\u00a0<em>at the same time<\/em> changed into the Body of that Word; and this Flesh is disseminated among all the Faithful. (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/2908.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>The Great Catechism<\/em><\/a>, chapter XXXVII; the footnote in NPNF 2 for this passage states: \u201cGregory distinctly teaches a transmutation of the elements very like the later transubstantiation: he also distinctly teaches that the words of consecration effect the change. There seems no reason to doubt that the text is correct.\u201d)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Ambrose<\/strong>: We observe, then, that grace has more power than nature, and yet so far we have only spoken of the grace of a prophet\u2019s blessing. But if the blessing of man had such power as to change nature, what are we to say of that divine consecration where the very words of the Lord and Saviour operate? For that sacrament which you receive is made what it is by the word of Christ. But if the word of Elijah had such power as to bring down fire from heaven, shall not the word of Christ have power to change the nature of the elements? You read concerning the making of the whole world: \u201cHe spake and they were made, He commanded and they were created.\u201d Shall not the word of Christ, which was able to make out of nothing that which was not, be able to change things which already are into what they were not? For it is not less to give a new nature to things than to change them. . . . The Lord Jesus Himself proclaims: \u201cThis is My Body.\u201d Before the blessing of the heavenly words another nature is spoken of, after the consecration the Body is signified. He Himself speaks of His Blood. Before the consecration it has another name, after it is called Blood.\u00a0(<a href=\"https:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/3405.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>On the Mysteries<\/em><\/a>, Chapter IX, 50, 52-55)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. John Chrysostom:\u00a0<\/strong>It is not a man who makes the sacrificial gifts become the Body and Blood of Christ, but He that was crucified for us, Christ Himself. The priest stands there carrying out the action, but the power and grace is of God. \u201cThis is My Body,\u201d he says. This statement transforms the gifts. (Homilies on the Treachery of Judas, 1, 6)<\/p>\n<p><strong>St. Augustine<\/strong>: For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ\u2019s body. (Sermons, 234, 2)<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>J. N. D Kelly states (citing <em>Ennar<\/em>. 98):<\/p>\n<p>One could multiply texts like these which show Augustine taking for granted the traditional identification of the elements with the sacred body and blood. There can be no doubt that he [Augustine] shared the realism held by almost all of his contemporaries and predecessors. (<i>Early Christian Doctrines, <\/i>San Francisco: Harper &amp; Row, 1978, 447)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>See also:<\/p>\n<p><a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2018\/10\/st-augustines-belief-in-the-substantial-real-presence.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">St. Augustine\u2019s Belief in the Substantial Real Presence<\/a>\u00a0[1996]<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2017\/08\/st-augustines-eucharistic-doctrine-protestant-co-opting.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">St. Augustine\u2019s Eucharistic Doctrine and Protestant \u201cCo-Opting\u201d<\/a>\u00a0[9-25-10]<\/p>\n<div><a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2016\/01\/st-augustines-eucharistic-doctrine.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">St. Augustine\u2019s Eucharistic Doctrine: Simultaneous Assertion of Realism and Symbolism<\/a>\u00a0[2-17-11]<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div><a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"http:\/\/capriciousness.blogspot.com\/2011\/07\/what-saint-augustine-bishop-saint-and.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">What Saint Augustine, Bishop, Saint and Doctor of the Catholic Church Actually Held Pertaining to Transubstantiation: A Response to Turretinfan<\/a>\u00a0(+\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"http:\/\/capriciousness.blogspot.com\/2011\/08\/what-saint-augustine-bishop-saint-and_20.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Part Two<\/a>) [Paul Hoffer, 8-20-11]<br>\n*<\/div>\n<p><i><\/i><strong>St. Cyril of Alexandria<\/strong>: He states demonstratively: \u201cThis is My Body,\u201d and \u201cThis is My Blood\u201c(Mt. 26:26-28) \u201clest you might suppose the things that are seen as a figure. Rather, by some secret of the all-powerful God the things seen are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, truly offered in a sacrifice in which we, as participants, receive the life-giving and sanctifying power of Christ. (Commentary on Matthew [Mt. 26:27] )<\/p>\n<p>Moreover, the belief of these same Church fathers,\u00a0<em>en masse<\/em>, in\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2017\/10\/eucharistic-sacrifice-witness-church-fathers.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">the Sacrifice of the Mass<\/a> attests to their eucharistic realism, over against Calvin\u2019s and Turretin\u2019s mere mystical symbolism and denial of the substantial, bodily Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.<\/p>\n<p>*<br>\n***<br>\n*<\/p>\n<div><em><strong>Practical Matters<\/strong><\/em>:\u00a0 I run the most comprehensive \u201cone-stop\u201d Catholic apologetics site:<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/adrianwarnock\/2024\/07\/top-personal-christian-blogs-ranked-by-ai-composite-score\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">\u00a0rated #1\u00a0for Christian sites<\/a>\u00a0by leading AI tool, ChatGPT \u2014 endorsed by popular Protestant blogger Adrian Warnock. Perhaps some of my 5,000+ free online articles or\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2009\/06\/dave-armstrongs-catholic-apologetics-bookstore-49-books-paperback-e-pub-mobi-nook-book-amazon-kindle-itunes-pdf-rock-bottom-regular-prices-67-savings-for-e-books-2.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">fifty-six books<\/a>\u00a0have helped you (by God\u2019s grace) to decide to\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2006\/11\/feedback-comments-on-my-writing-from.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">become Catholic\u00a0<\/a>or to\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2014\/01\/feedback-comments-on-my-writing-from-2.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">return to the Church<\/a>, or better understand some doctrines and\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2021\/02\/the-biblical-basis-of-apologetics-defense-of-christianity.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>why<\/em>\u00a0we believe them<\/a>. If you believe my\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2006\/07\/my-literary-resume.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">full-time apostolate<\/a>\u00a0is worth supporting, please seriously consider a much-needed monthly or one-time financial contribution. \u201cThe laborer is worthy of his wages\u201d (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV).<\/div>\n<div class=\"ad__child-13 ad__align ad__slot--wrapper\" data-instance-child=\"iGmLn\">\n<div id=\"incontent15\" class=\"ad__slot\" role=\"region\" data-unit=\"Alfv5\" aria-label=\"Advertisement\" data-google-query-id=\"CIftibvO3IsDFa8VigMdOcM5FQ\">\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div><a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.paypal.com\/us\/webapps\/mpp\/sem\/account-selection-signup\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">PayPal donations<\/a>\u00a0are the easiest: just send to my email address:\u00a0apologistdave@gmail.com. Here\u2019s also a\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.paypal.com\/us\/digital-wallet\/send-receive-money\/send-money\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">second page to get to PayPal<\/a>. You\u2019ll see the term \u201cCatholic Used Book Service\u201d, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.zellepay.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u00a0Zelle<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<strong>100% tax-deductible donations<\/strong>\u00a0if desired), see my page:\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2015\/08\/about-dave-armstrong-2.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong \/ Donation Information<\/a>.<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div>You can support my work a great deal in non-financial ways, if you prefer; by subscribing to, commenting on, liking, and sharing videos from my\u00a0<em>YouTube<\/em>\u00a0channel,\u00a0<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@KennyBurchard\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>Catholic Bible Highlights<\/em><\/a>, where I partner with Kenny Burchard (<a class=\" decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2024\/12\/my-videos-page-catholic-bible-highlights.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">see my own videos<\/a>), and\/or by signing up to receive notice for new articles on this blog. Just type your email address on the sidebar to the right (scroll down quite a bit), where you see, \u201cSign Me Up!\u201d\u00a0<em><strong>Thanks a million!<\/strong><\/em><\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<div>\n<div>\n<div>***<\/div>\n<div>*<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div dir=\"auto\">\n<p><strong>Photo credit:<\/strong> <span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">image by<\/span> <a class=\"userName--owby3 decorated-link\" href=\"https:\/\/pixabay.com\/users\/vilmaandrade-39573230\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">VilmaAndrade<\/a> <span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">(6-5-24)<\/span> [<a href=\"https:\/\/pixabay.com\/illustrations\/jesus-corpus-christi-bread-of-life-8805383\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Pixabay<\/a> \/ <a href=\"https:\/\/pixabay.com\/service\/license-summary\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Pixabay Content License<\/a>]<\/p>\n<p><em>Summary<\/em>: Calvinist theologian Fran\u00e7ois Turretin says transubstantiation is impossible due to post-consecration biblical references to \u201cbread\u201d &amp; \u201cwine\u201d &amp; alleged absence in the fathers.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Language of \u201cbread\u201d &amp; \u201cwine\u201d after consecration; transubstantiation and transformation: compendium from the Church fathers\u00a0 \u00a0 Fran\u00e7ois Turretin\u00a0(1623-1687) was a Genevan-Italian\u00a0Reformed scholastic\u00a0theologian and renowned defender of the\u00a0Calvinistic\u00a0(Reformed) orthodoxy\u00a0represented by the\u00a0Synod of Dort, and was one of the authors of the\u00a0Helvetic Consensus\u00a0(1675). He is generally considered to be the best Calvinist apologist besides John Calvin himself. [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2331,"featured_media":90044,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[312,58,239],"tags":[16453,365,364,16459,650,385],"class_list":["post-90038","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-calvinism-general-protestantism","category-eucharist-liturgy","category-fathers-of-the-church","tag-francois-turretin","tag-holy-communion","tag-holy-eucharist","tag-institutes-of-elenctic-theology","tag-sacramentalism","tag-transubstantiation"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Reply to Fran\u00e7ois Turretin #13: Transubstantiation, Pt. 2<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Calvinist theologian Fran\u00e7ois Turretin says transubstantiation is impossible due to post-consecration biblical references to &quot;bread&quot; 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/90038","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=90038"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/90038\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/90044"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=90038"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=90038"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=90038"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}