{"id":96796,"date":"2026-02-14T11:46:27","date_gmt":"2026-02-14T15:46:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/?p=96796"},"modified":"2026-02-14T14:11:40","modified_gmt":"2026-02-14T18:11:40","slug":"prayer-to-abraham-lk-16-analyzing-lousy-retorts","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/2026\/02\/prayer-to-abraham-lk-16-analyzing-lousy-retorts.html","title":{"rendered":"Prayer to Abraham (Lk 16) & Analyzing Lousy Retorts"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/a>
Photo credit<\/strong>: cover of the [Christian] book, Introduction to Logic<\/em>, by Jason Lisle (Master Book, 12-10-18), from its Amazon book page.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/p>

[From Facebook exchanges with a Protestant]<\/p>\n

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We are commanded to pray to God only.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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Where<\/em>? You have to find something that includes words such as [examples] \u201conly\u201d or \u201cpray to God alone\u201d, for this to be true. I\u2019m not sure you can find an \u201cexclusive\u201d verse like that (I highly suspect, not). If I\u2019m wrong about that, all any Protestant who disagrees needs to do is find such an \u201cexclusive\u201d verse. Otherwise, passages about prayer to God don\u2019t necessarily, logically exclude the possibility of other passages describing prayer to saints or angels (like Jesus\u2019 story in Luke 16 with the rich man and Abraham, and Lot and the angel he prayed to, receiving his request).<\/div>\n
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Show me one clear verse that says we can pray to saints, without inferring into it something that the verse doesn\u2019t say. Or stringing unrelated verses.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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I provided two passages (not two verses). The original Bible didn\u2019t have verse numbers.<\/div>\n
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Show me one clear verse \u2014 to turn the tables and argue like you<\/em> do \u2014 that says that Scripture is the only infallible source for theology and doctrine, and that tradition and the Church are not [i.e., sola Scriptura<\/em>: the Protestant rule of faith], without inferring into it something that the verse doesn\u2019t say. Or stringing unrelated verses.
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Show me one verse where it lists the books of the Bible.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\nAnd where do you get this notion that in order to believe something, it has to be found whole and entire in one<\/em><\/strong> verse in Scripture? The Bible never teaches that! It\u2019s a false man-made tradition.
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The word used for prayer by Jesus in Matthew 6 is proseuchomai<\/em>, which literally means \u201cto pray to God, worship\u201d. This is the primary verb used in the NT for prayer. The rich man was not worshiping God or Abraham. <\/span><\/div>\n
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Of course<\/em> he was not worshiping Abraham, just as most instances of prayer are not worshiping God, either, as I recently demonstrated at length<\/a>.<\/div>\n
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He was not praying. He was begging or pleading or beseeching. <\/span><\/div>\n
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Typical Protestant playing with words and making distinctions without a difference: when encountering Catholic passages of the Bible. I did a whole book about this in 2004, called The Catholic Verses<\/em>. The same is done with the passage where Paul prays for the dead man, Onesiphorus. Some of the classic commentaries on that are downright comical. They say Paul was \u201cwishing\u201d or \u201choping\u201d but not praying!<\/div>\n
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The other word for pray is parakaleo<\/em> which means \u201cto call near, invite beseech\u201d and is never used in reference to praying to saints. The rich man in Luke 16 is pleading with Abraham. The word pray in Luke 16:27 is erotao<\/em> which means to \u201cbeg, beseech\u201d. This word can mean prayer but only when it is used Godward.<\/span><\/div>\n
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Here of course you simply assume what you are trying to prove (circular reasoning). Having shown that the word can<\/em> mean prayer<\/em> and that it\u2019s present in Luke 16, you proceed to contend that it can\u2019t in Luke 16 because, well, it can only be directed towards God. How, then, could anyone ever prove that a word meant a particular thing, if it\u2019s ruled out beforehand, because it \u201ccan\u2019t\u201d mean it? That\u2019d be like saying that Kurios<\/em>\u00a0(Lord<\/em>) can only be used of the Father, so that when it\u2019s also used in the Bible for Jesus it can\u2019t mean the same thing because it\u2019s only used of the Father. Using this method [choke], one can \u201cdisprove\u201d anything they want to disprove.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n

So Luke 16:27 could be translated \u201cI beg you\u201d, which many translations do translate <\/span>erotao<\/em>. In fact <\/span>erotao<\/em> is used 58x and 14x it is translated pray in the KJV. Many of those 14x it is used in the sense of beg. Like Luke 14:19 \u201cI pray thee have me excused\u201d. Jesus uses it in John 14:16 when he says he will pray to the Father. And he uses it again in John 16:26. He also uses it in his priestly prayer in John 17.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

John uses it in 1 John 5:16 where John is talking about prayer to God. Its also used a few times in Acts but in the sense of pleading and not prayer. <\/span>Erotao<\/em> is mainly used for beg or plead and when used for prayer it is always used of God and never man. So clearly Luke 16 is not endorsing prayer to Abraham, but the rich man is pleading with him. No biblical or patristic sources use <\/span>erotao<\/em> for prayers addressed to saints.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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Repeating a fallacy and circular argument over and over doesn\u2019t turn it from falsehood into truth. But thanks for the classic demonstration of eisegesis. I have recently debated the meaning of Luke 16 at extreme length<\/a>, and none of this weakens my argument in the slightest.<\/div>\n
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\nHe was not praying to him. He was pleading. They could actually talk to each other. Luke 16 is not proof of being able to plead with saints in heaven. You cant hear them audibly. You cant talk to them. That requires two way communication which is what Abraham and the rich man have. You don\u2019t have that with departed believers. <\/span><\/div>\n
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The last three paragraphs of my post were completely ignored. Saying falsehoods over and over with no adequate reason for doing so isn\u2019t even rational argumentation.
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This doesn\u2019t follow. Say, for example, one was able to communicate with someone by radio, but that person couldn\u2019t send a message back, except through letter, saying that they heard the radio transmission. The fact that they couldn\u2019t send one back doesn\u2019t prove that they didn\u2019t hear a radio message. We know from the Bible that saints in heaven are intensely interested in earthly affairs and that they are capable of hearing prayers. So we know that they can hear our petitions and requests for intercession whether or not we hear back from them. In the same way, many if not most prayers to God are not accompanied by a message back from Him to us. (either in the Spirit or audibly). So your \u201cargument\u201d proves too much.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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Not only that but you are alive on Earth and the believers are in Heaven. Abraham and the rich man were both departed into the spiritual realm. Luke 16 is not proof text for praying to the saints. Originally you required exact wording for the belief that we can only pray to God. Words like \u201conly\u201d or \u201calone\u201d when referencing prayer to God. Well, the burden of proof lies with you.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\nIt lies on the one making the claim<\/em> (that in the Bible only God can be prayed to). If that is in one verse<\/em>, then it would have to include exclusive language like \u201conly\u201d or \u201calone.\u201d I don\u2019t believe there is such a passage, but it\u2019s not my burden<\/em>. The one making the claim has to demonstrate<\/em> it. I showed that prayer to a saint is present in Luke 16 and that Lot prayed to an angel and was granted his request.
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\nIf you are going to put that restriction on us, then we can ask the same of you. You need to show use where it clearly says \u201cThe saints hear our prayers.\u201d Or \u201d Pray to the saints\u201d.<\/span><\/div>\n
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In a sense I just did in the previous comment (Luke 16 and Lot and the angel). Also, there is Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 where both departed saints (\u201celders\u201d) and angels are in possession of \u201cthe prayers of the saints\u201d (one passage even says \u201call\u201d of the prayers). The most plausible reason for them having them is that they were asked to intercede, or that God delegated authority to them to \u201cprocess\u201d prayers as His helpers or intermediaries (just as in the case of Lot and Abraham).<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\nIn fact you have to prove the entire canonization process from scripture.<\/span><\/div>\n
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I don\u2019t have to, and I can\u2019t (no one<\/em> can). It\u2019s not in<\/em> Scripture. Catholics are content to believe the canon on the basis of the sublime authority of apostolic tradition. When Protestants accept it, they must make a glaring exception to their rule of faith (sola Scriptura<\/em>), that only the Bible is infallible.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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\nThere\u2019s no special class of saints. You need to prove that too.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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That\u2019s easy:<\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
\u201cBlameless\u201d & \u201cPure\u201d in the Bible (Sinless?): 40 Passages<\/a><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Sinless Creatures in the Bible: Actual & Potential (Including a Listing of Many Biblical Passages About Sin, Holiness, Blamelessness, Righteousness, Godliness, Perfection, and Sanctity)<\/a>
\n*<\/div>\n
Not a fallacy like your exact word fallacy. Nor is it eisegesis. Eisegesis is a good description of attempting to use Luke 16 to prove praying to the saints. And because you chose to attack me when I clearly point out to you the Greek usage of the various words and their context this debate is over. I am done. My silence from here on is not an admission of defeat but just the refusal to respond to attacks or repeat myself.<\/span><\/div>\n
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What<\/em> \u201cattacks\u201d? I refuted your arguments<\/em>. Your arguments are not you<\/strong><\/em>. If you\u2019re gonna play the usual victim game and flee from the argument because it\u2019s not going well, then I\u2019ll return the favor and block<\/em> you, since you can\u2019t stand the \u201cheat\u201d in the \u201ckitchen\u201d of the necessary process of rational and biblical argumentation. About all you\u2019ve been doing<\/em> is repeating yourself. That\u2019s why your case was so lousy.<\/div>\n
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Wishing you all God\u2019s blessings.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n
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Photo credit<\/strong>: cover of the [Christian] book, <\/span>Introduction to Logic<\/em>, by Jason Lisle (Master Book, 12-10-18), from its<\/span> Amazon book page<\/a>.\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n
*<\/div>\n
Summary<\/em>: A Protestant reacting to my biblical arguments from Luke 16 (praying to a man, Abraham) engages in literally classic and \u201cplaybook\u201d equivocating and circular argumentation.<\/div>\n
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\u00a0 [From Facebook exchanges with a Protestant] We are commanded to pray to God only. * Where? You have to find something that includes words such as [examples] \u201conly\u201d or \u201cpray to God alone\u201d, for this to be true. I\u2019m not sure you can find an \u201cexclusive\u201d verse like that (I highly suspect, not). 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Christianity since 1981, and Catholicism in particular since 1991 (full-time since December 2001). Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \\\"This Rock\\\" (now called \\\"Catholic Answers Magazine\\\"), \\\"Envoy Magazine\\\" (Patrick Madrid), \\\"The Catholic Answer,\\\" \\\"The Coming Home Journal,\\\" \\\"Gilbert Magazine\\\" (American Chesterton Society), and \\\"The Latin Mass.\\\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \\\"The Michigan Catholic\\\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \\\"Catholic Answers Live\\\" (twice), \\\"Faith and Family Live\\\" (Steve Wood), \\\"Kresta in the Afternoon,\\\" \\\"Son Rise Morning Show,\\\" \\\"Catholic Connection\\\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \\\"The Catholics Next Door.\\\" His large and popular website, \\\"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\\\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \\\"Envoy Magazine.\\\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \\\"index\\\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \\\"Surprised by Truth\\\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \\\"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\\\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \\\"The Catholic Verses\\\" (2004), \\\"The One-Minute Apologist\\\" (2007), \\\"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\\\" (2009), \\\"The Quotable Newman\\\" (editor: 2012), and \\\"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\\\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \\\"The New Catholic Answer Bible\\\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \\\"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\\\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \\\"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\\\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \\\"Quotable Wesley\\\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. 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Formerly a campus missionary, as a Protestant, Dave was received into the Catholic Church in February 1991, by the late, well-known catechist and theologian, Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave\u2019s articles have appeared in many influential Catholic periodicals, including \"This Rock\" (now called \"Catholic Answers Magazine\"), \"Envoy Magazine\" (Patrick Madrid), \"The Catholic Answer,\" \"The Coming Home Journal,\" \"Gilbert Magazine\" (American Chesterton Society), and \"The Latin Mass.\" He also writes a featured column for every issue of \"The Michigan Catholic\": published by the archdiocese of Detroit, and was editor for most of the apologetics tracts published by the St. Paul Street Evangelization apostolate. Dave\u2019s apologetics and writing apostolate was the subject of a feature article in the May 2002 issue of \"Envoy Magazine.\" He served as the staff moderator at the Internet discussion forum for The Coming Home Network, from 2007-2010. Dave has been interviewed on many nationally syndicated Catholic radio shows, including \"Catholic Answers Live\" (twice), \"Faith and Family Live\" (Steve Wood), \"Kresta in the Afternoon,\" \"Son Rise Morning Show,\" \"Catholic Connection\" (Teresa Tomeo), and \"The Catholics Next Door.\" His large and popular website, \"Biblical Evidence for Catholicism,\" was online from March 1997 to March 2007, and received the 1998 Catholic Website of the Year award from \"Envoy Magazine.\" His blog of the same name (now transferred to Patheos), begun in February 2004, contains more than 1,500 papers, at least 500 debates or dialogues, and over 50 distinct \"index\" web pages. Unsolicited correspondence has indicated many hundreds of conversions (or returns) to the Catholic faith as a result, by God's grace, of these writings. Dave's conversion story was published in the bestselling book \"Surprised by Truth\" (edited by Patrick Madrid; San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). Sophia Institute Press has published six of his books: \"A Biblical Defense of Catholicism\" (Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J., 1996 \/ 2003), \"The Catholic Verses\" (2004), \"The One-Minute Apologist\" (2007), \"Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths\" (2009), \"The Quotable Newman\" (editor: 2012), and \"Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical\" (2015). He is co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of the inserts for \"The New Catholic Answer Bible\" (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), and editor for \"The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton\" (Saint Benedict Press \/ TAN Books: 2009). \"100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura\" was published by Catholic Answers in May 2012. His \"Quotable Wesley\" compilation was published by (Protestant \/ Wesleyan publisher) Beacon Hill Press in April 2014. Several of his 49 books are bestsellers in their field. Dave maintains a popular personal Facebook page, a Facebook author page, and has a Twitter account as well. He offers almost all of his books in e-book form on his own Biblical Catholicism site (http:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/), at a permanent deep discount: only $2.99 for ePub, mobi, and AZW, and $1.99 for PDF. His writing has been enthusiastically endorsed or recommended by many leading Catholic apologists, authors, and priests, including Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Marcus Grodi, Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Devin Rose, Mike Aquilina, Al Kresta, Karl Keating, Fr. Dwight Longenecker, Brandon Vogt, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, and Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. Dave has been happily married to his wife Judy since October 1984. They have three sons and a daughter, and reside in southeast Michigan (metro Detroit).","sameAs":["https:\/\/biblicalcatholicism.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dave.armstrong.798","https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@LuxVeritatisApologetics"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/author\/davearmstrong"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/96796","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2331"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=96796"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/96796\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/96799"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=96796"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=96796"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/davearmstrong\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=96796"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}