supposed disproof<\/em> to wipe it out. So we did a \u201cdefeater of a failed defeater.\u201d<\/p>\nIn Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 [I\u2019ll cite them below] the \u201celders\u201d (dead human beings) and an angel present \u201cprayers of the saints to God. What are they doing with them? Either God involves them n our prayers by delegation, or they have them because people asked them to pray to God.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s interesting. How does Luke 16 prove people on earth should pray to people on the other side? Was the man on earth who talked to Abraham or was he in the spiritual realm because he had died and moved on? <\/span> You\u2019re now comparing apples to oranges and you go to everything except clear passages dealing with prayer to attempt to prove the unprovable. Apples to oranges. If you want to prove that those in hell and heaven can communicate now you got something. Until then your case is not proving your point.\u00a0<\/span><\/span>Find me an example where a saint on earth prayed to another saint in heaven and it pleases God? If it pleased God He would make it known. Why did nobody do this but you do do it?<\/span><\/p>\nWhat Luke 16 proves (which is what I\u2019ve always claimed for it) is that there is such a thing as prayer to someone other than God (a thing that Protestants claim is unbiblical). The fact that the rich man is also in Hades is secondary and not germane to the point I am making.<\/span> I\u2019ve been through these arguments literally a dozen times, through the years, because Protestants always make the same, tired, fallacious arguments every time.<\/span> Prayer to an angel is also explicitly taught in the Bible. Lot did that when he was leaving Sodom, and the angel granted his request that time. So it\u2019s a guy on earth praying to someone other than God (an angel) and his prayer is granted. <\/span><\/p>\nMatthew 6:6 \u2013 \u2018But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret.\u2019<\/span> Explicitly teaches that prayer is addressed to God, not to humans or intermediaries.<\/span><\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nYou don\u2019t seem to understand syllogistic logic. It does teach that prayer is properly addressed to God. What it does not<\/em><\/strong> do is exclude prayer also to saints or angels. In order to undeniably, unanswerably do that it would have to say, \u201cpray only<\/em><\/strong> to your Father.\u201d If it said that, we wouldn\u2019t be having this conversation and this video wouldn\u2019t exist, because the Catholic Church would have never taught prayer to saints and angels.<\/span> But as it is, Jesus taught prayer to a man, and Lot prayed to an angel, and there are several other indirect and deductive proofs, some of which I have mentioned in this combox.<\/span><\/p>\nYou don\u2019t seem to understand one mediator ! <\/span> Let\u2019s play a game. <\/span> Bible says there is one mediator between God and man. <\/span> Bible: Man prays to God and Christ is the mediator. <\/span> You say: Man prays to God and (angels, other saints, Mary) are mediators. <\/span> Do you see why that\u2019s unbiblical? <\/span><\/span><\/p>\nNo.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s because you\u2019ve ignored the fact there\u2019s only one mediator and added additional mediums [sic]<\/span>. That\u2019s called error!<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nNope; it\u2019s called Protestant unbiblical \/either\/or\u201d false dichotomy thinking. You assume that the word \u201cmediator\u201d means \u2014 or includes within itself \u2014 the idea that all prayer must go through Jesus to the Father, but that isn\u2019t the context of the passage: which is that He is our only redeemer and savior. Moreover, this doesn\u2019t even harmonize with Jesus\u2019 own teachings on prayer, which is that we can and should pray directly to the Father [in the Lord\u2019s Prayer], as you yourself pointed out. <\/span><\/p>\nNone of that rules out asking dead saints and angels to intercede for us to the Father. Jesus taught that this was permissible in Luke 16. Lot\u2019s answered prayer to an angel shows it, too.<\/span> The problem here is that you want to ignore or rationalize away parts of the Bible that you have decided beforehand that you don\u2019t want to agree with (which is heterodox, skeptical liberal theology), whereas Catholics believe in all<\/strong> <\/em>of the Bible, not just a few carefully selected and endlessly repeated cherry-picked verses.<\/span> Keep hanging around here and you will eventually pick up the ability to think and interpret the Bible biblically and consistently.<\/span><\/p>\nYou\u2019re reaching to prove something never taught by Scripture or example. Bible invites us to go boldly to God with our every supplication. I can\u2019t imagine why you would think to pray to anyone but God but you can fool around with it and find out.<\/span><\/p>\nWas this invitation offered before the cross? <\/span><\/p>\n Hebrews 4:14-16 (KJV) 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. <\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nWe are in a totally new relationship now and you are trying to observe the old shadow that has be<\/span>en done away with at the cross. Please consider pushing people toward the one mediator who desires a relationship. Not towards angels and such.<\/span><\/p>\nYou are conflating old and new covenant precepts. We have one mediator today. If you want to see prayer and mediation from the new covenant view it\u2019s one mediator. If you want many mediators go back to the old covenant. Which is what it seems you desire to do. Let\u2019s compare how things changed:<\/span> Here are the key passages:<\/span> <\/span><\/p>\n1\ufe0f\u20e3 Angels as Mediators in Giving the Law<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nActs of the Apostles <\/span>7:53 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders:<\/span> \u201cYou who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.\u201d<\/span> This indicates that angels were involved in delivering the Law.<\/span> \u2e3b<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nGalatians 3:19<\/span> Paul writes:<\/span> \u201cWhy then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come\u2026 and it was put in place through angels by a mediator.\u201d<\/span> This is the clearest statement. The Law:<\/span> \u2022 Was ordained through angels<\/span> \u2022 Was given by a mediator<\/span> \u2e3b<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nHebrews 2:2<\/span> \u201cFor since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable\u2026\u201d<\/span> This refers to the Law as something spoken through angels.<\/span> \u2e3b<\/span> <\/span><\/p>\n2\ufe0f\u20e3 Moses as the Mediator<\/span><\/span> The \u201cmediator\u201d mentioned in Galatians 3:19 is traditionally understood to be Moses.<\/span><\/p>\nDeuteronomy 5:5<\/span> Moses says:<\/span> \u201cI stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD\u2026\u201d<\/span> This explicitly describes Moses standing between God and the people \u2014 a mediatorial role.<\/span> \u2e3b<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nExodus 20:18\u201319<\/span> After God speaks at Sinai:<\/span> \u201cYou speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die.\u201d<\/span> The people ask Moses to act as their go-between.<\/span> \u2e3b<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nHebrews 3:2\u20136<\/span> Moses is described as faithful in God\u2019s house, but contrasted with Christ, who is greater \u2014 implying Moses had a covenant leadership\/mediatorial function under the old covenant.<\/span> \u2e3b<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n3\ufe0f\u20e3 Summary of the Biblical Picture<\/span><\/span> Under the Old Covenant:<\/span> \u2022 God \u2192 Angels \u2192 Moses \u2192 People<\/span> The Law was:<\/span> \u2022 Ordained through angels (Acts 7:53; Gal. <\/span>3:19; Heb. 2:2)<\/span> \u2022 Given through Moses as mediator (Deut. 5:5)<\/span> This sets up the contrast in:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n1 Timothy 2:5<\/span> \u201cFor there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.\u201d<\/span> Unlike the Old Covenant (multiple layers), the New Covenant has one direct mediator \u2014 Christ.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nWe don\u2019t<\/em> [ultimately] pray to someone besides God. We ask departed saints and angels to intercede for us to God. Even when we say \u201cpray to saints\u201d this is what we mean. We simply don\u2019t think that the dead are no longer existence or don\u2019t care about people on earth. The Church is one in heaven and on earth.<\/p>\nOne mediator. End of the story. <\/span>If you want to see prayer and mediation from the new covenant view it\u2019s one mediator.<\/span><\/p>\nThat\u2019s untrue, as these passages (that take place after Christ\u2019s death) prove:<\/span><\/p>\nRevelation 5:8<\/strong> (RSV) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;<\/span><\/p>\nRevelation 8:3-4<\/strong> And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.<\/span> So they are mediators of our prayers in some sense, contrary to your unbiblical traditions of men<\/span><\/p>\nIf you want many mediators go back to the old covenant.<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nYou have missed many NT passages (RSV) that show human beings being mediators of God\u2019s grace, prayer, and even of salvation. Here are 16:<\/span><\/p>\nRomans 11:13-14<\/strong> . . . Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry [14] in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.<\/span><\/p>\n1 Corinthians 1:21<\/strong> For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.<\/span><\/p>\n1 Corinthians 3:5<\/strong> What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each.<\/span><\/p>\n1 Corinthians 7:16<\/strong> Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?<\/span><\/p>\n1 Corinthians 9:22<\/strong> I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.<\/span><\/p>\n2 Corinthians 1:5-6<\/strong> For as we share abundantly in Christ\u2019s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. [6] If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer.<\/span><\/p>\n2 Corinthians 4:15<\/strong> For it [his many sufferings: 4:8-12, 17] is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.<\/span><\/p>\n2 Corinthians 5:20<\/strong> So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. . . . <\/span><\/p>\nEphesians 3:2<\/strong> assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God\u2019s grace that was given to me for you . . .<\/span><\/p>\nPhilippians 1:7<\/strong> . . . I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.<\/span><\/p>\nColossians 1:24<\/strong> Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ\u2019s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,<\/span><\/p>\n1 Timothy 4:16<\/strong> Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.<\/span><\/p>\n2 Timothy 2:10<\/strong> Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory.<\/span><\/p>\nJames 5:19-20<\/strong> My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, [20] let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.<\/span><\/p>\n1 Peter 3:1<\/strong> Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives<\/span><\/p>\nRevelation 1:4<\/strong> . . . Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\nThat\u2019s an awful lot of Bible to ignore and contradict, in your confident but deluded proclamations of what the Bible supposedly teaches. You have a lot<\/em><\/strong> to learn about the Bible and it\u2019s theology. You\u2019re only at the \u201cmilk\u201d stage. That\u2019s okay. We all learn all the time. But the first step is to admit that we don\u2019t know everything.<\/span><\/p>\nYou seem to overlook the word grace has different meanings depending on context. Just like the word justified or righteousness can have different meanings based on context. Running all over the place cherry picking verses out of context is not disproving the truth that Christ is the one mediator between God and man. <\/span><\/span><\/p>\nIt\u2019s \u201csystematic theology.\u201d Look it up. If we Catholics provide no Bible, then we\u2019re accused of being biblically illiterate. If we provide some 25 passages or more, as I have in this discussion, then we\u2019re accused of misinterpreting, taking out of context, and\/or \u201ccherry-picking.\u201d<\/span> The latter is what you<\/em><\/strong> have clearly been doing. \u201c1 Timothy 2:5, and did I forget about 1 Timothy 2:5, and oh, by the way, 1 Timothy 2:5 . . . \u201d We never denied it in the first place, so its perfectly irrelevant to keep repeating it. <\/span><\/p>\nYou see only this and related passages; you utterly ignore mine or on the rare occasion when you do comment on one in passing, you immediately dismiss it or try to change the meaning so your false theology can survive the contact.<\/span> I didn\u2019t deny that Christ is the one mediator. Catholics don\u2019t. Of course He is. My point is that this doesn\u2019t rule out secondary mediators. You<\/strong><\/em> deny the latter; Scripture does not. <\/span><\/p>\nI gave the evidence and now you want to ignore it and go back to platitudes and slogans, and putting your head in the sand, so that you don\u2019t have to interact with 17 relevant passages. It\u2019s pathetic. And it\u2019s all classic anti-Catholic behavior and methodology. It\u2019s not honest, open-minded theological discussion or exegesis. You refuse to seriously discuss any Bible text except for the ones you bring up and endlessly drone on about.<\/span><\/p>\n Paul is not a mediator of grace in the same way God saves by grace. Good grief!<\/span><\/span><\/p>\nWe never said he was. He and many others \u2014 indeed, potentially all of us \u2014 are mini-mediators. We participate in the spread of God\u2019s grace and salvation, in a secondary manner, compared to Jesus being of course the primary and ultimate mediator. It\u2019s just like prayer: dead saints and angels can assist with mediatory prayer and intercession; all the prayer always ultimately ends up going to God and is answered, or not answered by Him. This is the Bible\u2019s teaching.<\/p>\n
Consider what you are instructing people to do vs what Jesus instructs His people to do? You are not in agreement with Christ, sir! <\/span><\/span><\/p>\nI\u2019m the one who has brought up all kinds of Scripture that you ignore. Then you falsely accuse and misrepresent what I am arguing. That\u2019s the devil\u2019s method (accuse and distort), not a serious, honest, open discussion about Christian theology and exegesis.<\/p>\n
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