{"id":558,"date":"2018-04-14T09:58:24","date_gmt":"2018-04-14T16:58:24","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/divergence.blog\/?p=558"},"modified":"2018-04-14T09:58:24","modified_gmt":"2018-04-14T16:58:24","slug":"when-the-bottom-drops-out","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/","title":{"rendered":"When the Bottom Drops Out"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

The most important insight, I believe, the post-modern offers is the idea that the meta-narratives we inhabit cannot be proven true by empirical\/scientific methods or indubitable foundations.\u00a0 Whether one is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Secular Humanist, Atheist or Agnostic, whatever has brought one to that place, the reasons one believes his meta-narrative\/world-view to be true, cannot be proven in an empirical\/scientific way such that other narratives are clearly shown to be false.<\/p>\n

In other words, it is not a problem of information, science, facts, or the lack thereof.\u00a0 It\u2019s not as if a person only knew this fact, piece of information, science, history, he would see he were wrong and the other person correct.\u00a0 Clearly, if that were the case, at this point we would all inhabit one narrative\u2014the one that had \u201cproven true\u201d empirically and scientifically and prevailed over all the others.\u00a0 That hasn\u2019t happened.\u00a0 The problem is not ignorance.<\/p>\n

As an aside, also note how this very schematic privileges the modern\u2014the idea something can only be true if proved empirically\/scientifically.\u00a0 The very reason we have the post-modern is because enough philosophers, thinkers, and cultural movers realized not even the modern could do this.\u00a0 The \u2018modern\u201d was simply a way to position other narratives.\u00a0 It was a way for the modern to place itself above all other narratives in a position of judgment, rather than in the dock with all the rest.\u00a0 The post-modern has displaced the modern as neutral judge, disrobed it, taken its gavel away and told it to step down and become a witness like all the other narratives.<\/p>\n

Further, I am not speaking of those matters of disagreement that clearly fall into the empirical\/scientific realm, such as is the earth flat or does water boil at a certain temperature at sea level.\u00a0 Obviously, many disagreements can be settled by empirical\/scientific means.\u00a0 We do this all the time and life goes on.<\/p>\n

None of that, however, addresses the meta or over-arching narratives we inhabit, which inform our core beliefs about ultimate ends, values, morality, good and evil, or the big \u201cwhy\u201d questions of meaning.\u00a0 And, fundamentally, whether or not a god exists or a transcendence of some type, rather than a purely material universe.<\/p>\n

Any supposed answers to those questions are areas, cannot be founded or proven empirically\/scientifically.\u00a0 An easy way to see this or it\u2019s truthfulness is to simply note the number of scientists\/engineers\/physicists\/biologists\/mathematicians who are also Christian, Muslim, Hindu, atheist\/agnostic, or whatever.\u00a0 They all are familiar with the same science and mathematics\/physics. And yet, they do not agree as to many of the areas noted above.<\/p>\n

We might bring all those areas into the discussion and argue how we feel those areas make better sense within our own narrative, lend credence to our narrative, but none of those areas (the \u201chard\u201d sciences) alone will simply \u201cprove\u201d or demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt, the truthfulness of one\u2019s narrative.\u00a0 And, of course, this is what the modern and especially the fundamentalist (whether secular or religious) tries to do.\u00a0 Usually to no avail.\u00a0 They are certain everyone else is just ignorant (whether of the Bible or science) and needs to be educated.<\/p>\n

So, something else must be going on.\u00a0 Here is a very insightful essay (see here<\/a>) that brought this to mind recently, and it goes to this \u201csomething else\u201d I think is in play.\u00a0 At first, it may appear she makes the exact opposite argument I am making.\u00a0 After all, she comes across \u201cinformation\u201d or \u201cfacts\u201d that seem to change her mind.\u00a0 Upon closer examination however, I think there is a little more to it than those factors alone.<\/p>\n

Why?\u00a0 Because many fundamentalist\/evangelicals have come across the same information and facts but found ways to explain them away, offer alternative explanations as to what they mean, or just believed the facts and information to be in error.\u00a0 She writes:<\/p>\n

\u201cThat\u2019s not to say that realities can\u2019t change. Mine did. But few individuals can be argued out of an entire worldview. Realities shift when ideas bloom and ideas are slow and patient, creeping in through unguarded portals and establishing themselves without much fanfare. However well-intentioned you are, bludgeoning people with fact after argument after fact will only entrench them in their position and reinforce a perception of being persecuted by the world.\u201d<\/p>\n

She no doubt had heard growing up that evolutionists and atheists (the \u201cbad\u201d people) believed the earth to be old.\u00a0 And before college, she no doubt had heard about or read their reasons for believing such.\u00a0 Epiphanies usually come when the ground-work has already been laid.\u00a0 There must have been more to it than that one day in class.\u00a0 But what?\u00a0 Well, all the other things she talks about in the above quote and entire essay.<\/p>\n

We were not argued into, or reasoned into, the narratives we inhabit now whether atheist, Christian, or whatever.\u00a0 We would all like to think we were, but such is one of the many lies we tell ourselves (in my opinion).\u00a0 There are intangible factors involved, which weigh far greater than simply learning a new fact or piece of information (or even a lot of new facts or information).<\/p>\n

And to the writer\u2019s greater point, whether one is a Christian, atheist, or whatever, to encounter a hole in one\u2019s world-view, is to have the floor drop out from underneath.\u00a0 The free-falling, with nothing to hold onto, is disconcerting to say the least.\u00a0 It is to have one\u2019s world collapse in many respects.\u00a0 We don\u2019t know what we are asking sometimes, when we ask another to see their world-view as false or to see the same holes we see.\u00a0 We think, \u201cHow can they not see this?\u201d\u00a0 Well, for the same reasons we cannot see many things having to do with our own world-view.<\/p>\n

Patience, generosity of spirit, listening in good faith, and most importantly, kindness are the keys to being heard.\u00a0 Only love allows the other person to step inside our world-view, narrative, if even briefly to see things from our perspective.\u00a0 And we should do this, not to convert, but in the genuine spirit of honest conversation and mutual understanding.\u00a0 We should do this to learn and entertain even, the possibility we could be wrong.\u00a0 We do this not to triumph or \u201cwin\u201d arguments, but to build bridges where each can cross freely even if they only want to visit, but not quite move there yet\u2014or, ever.<\/p>\n

I have often failed to do this.\u00a0 I have not shown patience, kindness, generosity of spirit, or listened in good faith to opposing views.\u00a0 I have not shown love in these areas.\u00a0 Too often I was more interested in being right, in \u201cwinning\u201d the argument, even if it meant losing the person on the other side.\u00a0 Maybe you know someone like this too.<\/p>\n

Late in life, I am trying to better cultivate the aforementioned disciplines as I encounter those with whom I disagree.\u00a0 By the grace of God and wise counsel I hope to do better.\u00a0 I trust we all do.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The most important insight, I believe, the post-modern offers is the idea that the meta-narratives we inhabit cannot be proven true by empirical\/scientific methods or indubitable foundations.\u00a0 Whether one is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Secular Humanist, Atheist or Agnostic, whatever has brought one to that place, the reasons one believes his meta-narrative\/world-view to be true, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3524,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[14,71,296,329,374,512],"class_list":["post-558","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-apologetics","tag-converting","tag-narratives","tag-persuasion","tag-reason","tag-world-view"],"yoast_head":"\nWhen the Bottom Drops Out<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"The most important insight, I believe, the post-modern offers is the idea that the meta-narratives we inhabit cannot be proven true by\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"When the Bottom Drops Out\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"The most important insight, I believe, the post-modern offers is the idea that the meta-narratives we inhabit cannot be proven true by\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Divergence\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2018-04-14T16:58:24+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Darrell Lackey\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@darrelllackey1\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Darrell Lackey\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"6 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/\",\"name\":\"When the Bottom Drops Out\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2018-04-14T16:58:24+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2018-04-14T16:58:24+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#\/schema\/person\/d88a32b8d4b5f40fbd6ccbfce4e0f813\"},\"description\":\"The most important insight, I believe, the post-modern offers is the idea that the meta-narratives we inhabit cannot be proven true by\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"When the Bottom Drops Out\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/\",\"name\":\"Divergence\",\"description\":\"Commentary Regarding Fundamentalism - Evangelicalism\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#\/schema\/person\/d88a32b8d4b5f40fbd6ccbfce4e0f813\",\"name\":\"Darrell Lackey\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/333bbffd8a9f931197abc00b19242031?s=96&d=identicon&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/333bbffd8a9f931197abc00b19242031?s=96&d=identicon&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Darrell Lackey\"},\"description\":\"Darrell Lackey has served as a lead pastor and currently works in the private sector. He is a graduate of the University of San Francisco and Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary (Now Gateway). He and his wife reside in Northern California.\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/darrelllackey1\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/author\/dlackey\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"When the Bottom Drops Out","description":"The most important insight, I believe, the post-modern offers is the idea that the meta-narratives we inhabit cannot be proven true by","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"When the Bottom Drops Out","og_description":"The most important insight, I believe, the post-modern offers is the idea that the meta-narratives we inhabit cannot be proven true by","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/","og_site_name":"Divergence","article_published_time":"2018-04-14T16:58:24+00:00","author":"Darrell Lackey","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@darrelllackey1","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Darrell Lackey","Est. reading time":"6 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/","name":"When the Bottom Drops Out","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#website"},"datePublished":"2018-04-14T16:58:24+00:00","dateModified":"2018-04-14T16:58:24+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#\/schema\/person\/d88a32b8d4b5f40fbd6ccbfce4e0f813"},"description":"The most important insight, I believe, the post-modern offers is the idea that the meta-narratives we inhabit cannot be proven true by","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/2018\/04\/14\/when-the-bottom-drops-out\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"When the Bottom Drops Out"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/","name":"Divergence","description":"Commentary Regarding Fundamentalism - Evangelicalism","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#\/schema\/person\/d88a32b8d4b5f40fbd6ccbfce4e0f813","name":"Darrell Lackey","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/333bbffd8a9f931197abc00b19242031?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/333bbffd8a9f931197abc00b19242031?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","caption":"Darrell Lackey"},"description":"Darrell Lackey has served as a lead pastor and currently works in the private sector. He is a graduate of the University of San Francisco and Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary (Now Gateway). He and his wife reside in Northern California.","sameAs":["https:\/\/twitter.com\/darrelllackey1"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/author\/dlackey\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/558","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3524"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=558"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/558\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=558"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=558"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/divergence\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=558"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}