{"id":31044,"date":"2019-06-12T19:04:01","date_gmt":"2019-06-12T23:04:01","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/eidos\/?p=31044"},"modified":"2019-06-12T23:26:11","modified_gmt":"2019-06-13T03:26:11","slug":"the-five-worst-arguments-or-claims-made-by-internet-atheists","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/eidos\/2019\/06\/the-five-worst-arguments-or-claims-made-by-internet-atheists\/","title":{"rendered":"The Five Worst \u201cArguments\u201d (or Claims) Made by Internet Atheists"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"Atheists or at least non-theists have been invaluable mentors and friends. Philosophy and many other fields have been enriched by contributions of atheist scholars. Just as Christianity contains \u201capologists\u201d with no training or who get way ahead of the arguments (\u201cNo rational person can doubt God\u2019s existence!\u201d), so atheism attracts their own crazy aficionados.<\/p>\n

Dialog enough with either camp and you run into arguments or claims that the community<\/i>\u00a0of pop apologists or pop atheists accept, but that are indefensible in scholarship: theist, atheist, or anything in between. Propose a dissertation advancing your ideas at a good university and it would die.<\/p>\n

The five worst arguments or claims I meet in the wild from the pop anti-theist atheist# community that are widely accepted in the sub-culture, but essentially no place else are:<\/p>\n

The Middle Ages were the Dark Ages, because \u201creligion.\u201d\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Historians do not call the period of Western European history the \u201cdark ages.\u201d They were not dark. Second, the discussion ignores the Eastern Roman Empire that maintained a secular \u201cuniversity\u201d tradition for almost all her history \u00a0as a Christian area. Third, the notion that things were bad, because of \u201creligion\u201d is so facile that a good atheist historian has a whole section of his website dedicated<\/a> to refuting the insanity.<\/p>\n

\u201cI do not know modal logic, but Plantinga\u2019s version of the ontological argument is bad.\u201d\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Sadly, I don\u2019t know Russian so I have to read Tolstoy in translation. As a result, I cannot comment on the literary merit of War and Peace <\/i>in Russian. Most scholars who do read Russian think Tolstoy has done a magnificent job. A few might dissent and they give reasons. Since I do not read Russian, I must go with the consensus or<\/i>\u00a0cite and follow responsible dissident scholars.<\/p>\n

I cannot judge Russian competence if I do not know Russian.<\/p>\n

In the same way, I cannot evaluate a modal argument, if I cannot read a modal argument. I have asked Internet critics of Plantinga why<\/i>\u00a0his argument fails (as they assert) and they are unable to even form a modal response to his modal argument<\/i>. They cannot read Plantinga\u2019s actual argument, but have very strong opinions about it.<\/p>\n

Now nobody can be an expert on everything, but if you are going to dismiss the argument then cite someone who has the competence to read it.<\/i>\u00a0You are not going to be able to add to the discussion, but you can point friends to a critic you trust.<\/p>\n

Opining or constructing counter-arguments with no training or ability is like attacking Tolstoy\u2019s Russian with no Russian. I am not a fan of the ontological argument, but would not try to refute it without the ability to read it with comprehension!<\/p>\n

\u201cPhilosophy is useless. We just need science.\u201d\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

This is, of course, a statement of philosophy and not science.<\/p>\n

The statement refutes itself. However, if we are very, very, very charitable and assume that what is meant is that \u201cthe\u00a0only<\/i>\u00a0philosophy we need is enough to show that only science\u00a0<\/i>is a pathway to knowledge,\u201d then there is still a problem.<\/p>\n

Once we concede we need philosophy, even in this limited way, then the atheist will need to make a philosophical argument for his philosophical claim about the limit. He or she had better be able to do it. If he cannot, then he should stop doing philosophy without competence.<\/p>\n

\u201cStalin was trained in a seminary and his tyranny was really a religion not True Atheism.\u201d\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

In pre-Revolutionary Russia many schools were called seminaries, but they did not<\/b> exist just to train priests. Stalin was an atheist before he was a communist. He found a worldview to fit his atheism. He allowed a \u201cstate church\u201d since atheism is so counter-intuitive that even with great persecution, theism kept cropping back up.<\/p>\n

Atheism need not lead to persecution, but atheism# with power always has. In fact, atheism# is a kind-of-religion<\/a>. That\u2019s not a general claim against religion<\/i>\u00a0or atheism<\/i>, but does say atheism, like religion, has no inherent check against tyrannical impulses.<\/p>\n

Atheism has never started or been dominant in a society that was not horrific. (Iceland is not majority atheist. Western Europe is not majority atheist. Christians have committed horrific crimes as well with power. Individual atheists have served nobly in office in nations with a religious heritage.)<\/p>\n

Faith is believing things despite the evidence.\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

There are out of the two billion Christians (not even counting the other theists) surely someone who asserts this. Existentialists (atheist or Christian) might even defend such an epistemology. This is not, however, what Saint Basil, Thomas Aquinas, or John Calvin meant by faith.<\/p>\n

I have met atheists# that wish to tell me<\/i>\u00a0what I really<\/i>\u00a0mean by faith<\/a>. That\u2019s a bit mad.<\/p>\n

Faith is a complex term with epistemological and ontological meanings. Christian faith<\/a> is not contrary (and must not \u00a0be contrary) to reason. Faith is comfortable with science<\/a>. Faith demands proper evidence. Faith seeks understanding<\/a>.<\/p>\n

Any serious atheist will concede that \u201cFaith\u201d as used by Christians need not be irrational. See, for example, a dialog<\/a> between Michael Shermer and me on this topic.<\/p>\n

Bonus: Jesus did not (or probably did not) exist.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

This is so foolish, I have never met more than one relevantly trained atheist who believed it. <\/i>Here is an atheist response to this foolishness<\/a>.<\/p>\n

\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014\u2014<\/p>\n

# I will define atheist# as a person who opines without either little training or goes far beyond what serious scholars (from any perspective) assert.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Atheists or at least non-theists have been invaluable mentors and friends. Philosophy and many other fields have been enriched by contributions of atheist scholars. Just as Christianity contains \u201capologists\u201d with no training or who get way ahead of the arguments (\u201cNo rational person can doubt God\u2019s existence!\u201d), so atheism attracts their own crazy aficionados. Dialog […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1007,"featured_media":29062,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[13,6],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-31044","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-pop-culture"],"yoast_head":"\nThe Five Worst \u201cArguments\u201d (or Claims) Made by Internet Atheists<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Atheists or at least non-theists have been invaluable mentors and friends. 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