{"id":14157,"date":"2023-02-24T15:22:06","date_gmt":"2023-02-24T19:22:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/evetushnet\/?p=14157"},"modified":"2023-02-27T20:12:34","modified_gmt":"2023-02-28T00:12:34","slug":"im-not-gay-and-so-can-you-notes-an-interview-on-greg-johnsons-history-of-the-ex-gay-movement","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/evetushnet\/2023\/02\/im-not-gay-and-so-can-you-notes-an-interview-on-greg-johnsons-history-of-the-ex-gay-movement.html","title":{"rendered":"I’m Not Gay and So Can You!: Notes & an Interview on Greg Johnson’s History of the Ex-Gay Movement"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

I finally read Greg Johnson\u2019s Still Time to Care: What We Can Learn from the Church\u2019s Failed Attempt to Cure Homosexuality<\/em><\/a>. Greg (that\u2019s his photo on this post) is the pastor at Memorial Presbyterian Church, which has hosted Revoice<\/a> a few years now and will host again this year. He\u2019s openly gay and celibate. He\u2019s very sweet! And a real preacher\u2013I\u2019ve heard him preach at Revoice, and his book follows that preachin\u2019 cadence.<\/p>\n

His book splits neatly into two parts. The first half is a history of the ex-gay movement in the English-speaking Protestant world (with brief dips into Catholicworld). This part was GREAT. I learned a lot! Johnson\u2019s own story is woven in quite gracefully. If you have any interest in the subject matter, I\u2019d definitely recommend it. It\u2019s not academic in style.<\/p>\n

The second half is an attempt to address what Johnson sees as the questions facing people seeking a better way, after the collapse of Exodus International and the marginalization of the ex-gay model. This was more of a mixed bag for me, I\u2019d write it very differently (lol I have<\/a>, in fact), but every addition to the growing gay celibate bookshelf adds a perspective we need. I finished the book with a bunch of questions, which Greg graciously agreed to answer.<\/p>\n

The interview below focuses on my own questions, so it doesn\u2019t perfectly track what\u2019s in the book. (That\u2019s why I started this post with a separate short review.) I have not edited the answers. I wouldn\u2019t approach some of these questions the same way. I expect that our differences here are rooted not solely in theological differences (though those maybe play a role) but also in our experience of what has helped and harmed us in our walk with Jesus. But Greg has been a pastor for a long time, and I know he has wisdom even where I would take a different approach.<\/p>\n

Enough from me! Let\u2019s get interviewin\u2019.<\/p>\n

1. I had no idea that there were so many lifelong celibate Protestant leaders in the mid-20th century! Do you have any thoughts about why that happened? What helped sustain people in that life? Was this relatively new, or is there a tradition of Protestant celibacy? And\u2026 what happened, that now it seems very rare to hear about celibacy in Protestant circles?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Celibacy has a long history within Anglicanism. For centuries, celibacy was required to be a fellow (a don or prof) at Oxford and Cambridge. Mandatory celibacy was only repealed in 1877. But it continues as a not-uncommon practice. Celibacy has remained an accepted calling among traditionalist and evangelical Anglicans. So Lewis, Nash and Stott were all part of a long tradition.<\/p>\n

In the US, J. Gresham Machen and John Murray were unusual in being Presbyterian evangelicals and celibate. Their teaching roles and homes on a northern campus\u2014Westminster in Philadelphia\u2014provided some context. But historically celibacy has been much less acceptable in the US, where it draws more suspicion than in the UK.<\/p>\n

The fact that educated 20th century American evangelicals looked so heavily to evangelical Anglicans in the UK for academic scholarship and cultural credibility helped give models for Christian singleness. But many still erroneously see the term \u201ccelibacy\u201d as Roman Catholic. Many are more comfortable speaking of the \u201ccall to singleness,\u201d knowing that St. Paul describes such a calling in 1 Corinthians 7.<\/p>\n

2. Any thoughts on the shift (if you think it IS a real shift!) in Christian discourse from \u201ccelibacy\u201d to \u201csingleness\u201d? What is gained and what is lost there?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I don\u2019t know that there has been a shift among Protestants. If anything, they are only now beginning to use the language of celibacy. It may be that using the language of singleness helps people distinguish it from the mandatory priestly celibacy among Roman Catholic clergy. Personally, I prefer to speak of celibacy because, for many people, single often means pre-married. For me this is a lifelong calling. But I also spent a decade in a Jesuit theology department, so I was surrounded by celibate people.<\/p>\n

3. A couple times in the early part of the book you link \u201csexual or romantic\u201d same-sex relationships as things that are barred by our faith. Later on, you nuance this and set it in a more personal context of prudential judgment. And you make clear that you don\u2019t intend to \u201cpolice semantics\u201d of other people, which speaks to part of my own biggest concern, i.e. that condemning \u201cromance\u201d (not a Scriptural or theological term! actually just a cultural construct!) leads people into the same shame-driven fear of their emotions and tweezering of their language that the ex-gay movement encouraged. But I guess I would just ask what you see as being gained and what lost when we insist that Christian same-sex relations can\u2019t be \u201cromantic.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

(For the record, I have reservations about \u201cromance\u201d language too, for some of the same reasons you bring up\u2026 but lol as someone preparing for covenant friendship with a very hearts-and-flowers partner, I\u2019ve had to reexamine my assessment of this kind of talk: https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/evetushnet\/2022\/02\/controversial-topics-in-gay-christian-livin.html<\/a> )<\/strong><\/p>\n

Romance is so hard to define, and so I try not to draw too many lines. Pastorally, I prefer thinking in categories of Christian siblinghood. A sister or brother can have great intimacy and committed companionship. But they aren\u2019t gazing into each other\u2019s eyes thinking they make each other complete. And you can have more than one sibling. Again, this is more of a personal and pastoral caution than a clear biblical mandate. I don\u2019t want anything I say here to be weaponized. We\u2019ve had enough of that.<\/p>\n

When someone speaks to me about wanting a celibate partner, the pastoral questions I would encourage them to ask involve whether this person occasions sexual temptation. Or vice versa. They may or may not. Do they see this as an exclusive relationship, or could they see a third or fourth person someday sharing in this fellowship? Will they have separate bedrooms? Separate beds? For me, it\u2019s less a concern about maintaining certain rules. It\u2019s more a question of them discerning whether or not this will help or hinder their relationship with God.<\/p>\n

What will be the impact on their hearts? Will they\u2014on one end\u2014find themselves in a sexless quasi-marriage, constantly pining for more? That would be very difficult; I would want better for them. Or will they\u2014on the other end\u2014find themselves doing life together with a Christian sibling or two who help them trust and follow Jesus, without causing unnecessary distraction from that calling? In other words, are we talking about a Christian Laverne and Shirley? (I\u2019m dating myself here.) Or are we talking about something almost marital in heart expectation? These are practical heart-level questions only the individual can answer. I can\u2019t make their decisions for them. I can just help them ask the right questions, and then support them as their pastor.<\/p>\n

For myself, I just don\u2019t trust my own heart. Honestly, I\u2019m not sure I would want a celibate partner to whom I wasn\u2019t (on some level) sexually attracted. I\u2019m that bad! And I would probably want them to be really into me, too. And I\u2019m not convinced that would be good for their heart or for mine. That\u2019s enough for me to that decide it\u2019s just not for me.<\/p>\n

But I am not everyone. It\u2019s less about man-made external rules and more about the heart. God has given me tremendous intimacy and long-term companionship within a web of committed Christian friendships. I\u2019ve found it to be an incredible blessing. I wouldn\u2019t trade that for anything. Particularly if it would leave me confused and looking to a fellow man to make me feel the way that Jesus wants to make me feel. I\u2019m aware that everyone doesn\u2019t share my particular weaknesses. I can\u2019t throw shade on others who perhaps experience greater freedom than I do from the internal pull of sexual temptation.<\/p>\n

4. You write beautifully about embracing the crosses of celibacy, and sustaining hope within celibacy. But let me take a different angle: What are you grateful for in being gay (cf \u201cIn all circumstances give thanks\u201d), and what blessings have you received through that experience?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Lol as a Catholic I\u2019m always down for \u201cthe blessing IS the suffering!\u201d, but I wonder if there\u2019s more to say here. And\u2026 to show my hand a bit, I wonder if the unwillingness to ask about blessings that could come from being gay is part of the theological failure of (and the damage done by) the ex-gay movement.<\/strong><\/p>\n

You may be on to something here. I know within my own Reformed tradition, we really zero in on the ongoing presence of indwelling sin. There is wisdom here, but also there is the risk of failing to distinguish between healthy human longing and the sin that distorts such longing. Reformed folks are often hesitant to ask the question because they might be misunderstood as suggesting that sexual temptations are a good thing, which they aren\u2019t.<\/p>\n

People do still flatten our experience of our sexual orientation into mere sexual temptation. I try to suggest there is more to it than that. I have never objectified the body of my sister in Christ. I have never stored up her image for later recall. We don\u2019t want to call that indwelling sin. It\u2019s love that always protects.<\/p>\n

There are God-given longings for companionship\u2014to be known and to know, to give and to receive love\u2014that are part of the imago dei. For me, I have a few deep and lasting relationships that I am unlikely to have had were I pouring myself into a spouse and children. People send me Fathers Day cards because I have had the opportunity to invest in so many people during a season when they needed a Dad. I love that I get to tell people that Jesus is worrh it. My experience of my sexual orientation\u2014and the abuse I\u2019ve taken for being honest about it\u2014have opened up doors for me to talk about Jesus on Public Radio and in USA Today. I\u2019m thankful for that. I can\u2019t imagine a different life. This is the one God has given me, and I am thankful for it. My only regrets are my sin.<\/p>\n

5. You\u2019re focusing very tightly on the Protestant side of things, which I needed and appreciated, but do you have any thoughts about the influence of Catholics on the ex-gay movement and vice versa? Similarities between the Protestant and Catholic trajectories here, differences, strengths Catholics brought to these questions, weaknesses or things the Catholics tended to lack?<\/strong><\/p>\n

The biggest impact has been tangential. In the 1980s, Catholics and evangelicals realized they had some common enemies in abortion and the push to legalize gay marriage. That alliance was essentially political in nature. Not theological. That same alliance saw ex-gays as very useful. Downstream a few decades, we see political posturing overpowering much conservative religious thought in America. We\u2019re up to our steeples in politics. Because the discourse in political and bit theological, nuanced voices like our own tend to get drowned out.<\/p>\n

There is more. It was a Catholic therapist who gave us the language of same-sex attraction. But it took evangelical publishing empires and radio networks to convince everyone to use that terminology. The language has stuck among Roman Catholics, though. Last I checked, it was still the preferred lingo within Courage. How many people would have loved for you instead to have written a book titled Same-Sex Attracted and Catholic!<\/p>\n

And we should remember that the Father of Reparative Therapy was Roman Catholic psychologist Joseph Nicolosi and his\u00a0Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic in Encino, California. He founded\u00a0National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH).<\/p>\n

Protestants brought to the table the ex-gay testimony. (We do love a good testimony.) That seems to have been less central in Catholicism. And there was less expectation of complete deliverance within Catholic ex-gay circles than\u2014say\u2014in independent charismatic Protestant ex-gay circles, where complete deliverance was often an expectation.<\/p>\n

6. Is there anything you feel you\u2019ve discovered since writing the book?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I do keep coming across things I might have included were I writing today. It seems another once-kinda-famous ex-gay falls every few months. But there\u2019s only so much of that people can manage. There have been a few points of theological nuance here or there, but I can\u2019t recall exactly where.<\/p>\n

7. And last!!! What is the one question you wish people would ask you about this book?<\/strong><\/p>\n

What did it look like to write this book?<\/p>\n

It was during darkest days of the pandemic. I wasn\u2019t going into the office, and I only had an Android phone to work on at home. So I researched and wrote the entire book on my Android phone, sitting on my couch, using two thumbs. Including 650 endnotes. Thankfully, most academic libraries freed up public access during the pandemic, placing a huge volume of data within reach as never before. Zoom and phone interviews took place on the same Android. That phone has some serious mileage.<\/p>\n

It was quite an ordeal!<\/p>\n

buy Greg\u2019s book<\/a>!<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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