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<\/a>Two weeks ago, I posted a collection of interviews with Noah<\/a><\/i> director Darren Aronofsky, and I have updated that post<\/a> with new interview clips ever since. But in the meantime \u2014 especially as Aronofsky has gone overseas to promote the film \u2014 there have also been a number of interviews with his co-writer Ari Handel. So I figured I should start a post to collect those, too.<\/p>\nI interviewed Aronofsky and Handel together myself back in February<\/a>, and I linked to a more recent interview with Handel in my post on the infamous snakeskin<\/a>.<\/p>\n Handel was also featured prominently in a \u201cfaith leaders\u201d video<\/a> that I posted a couple weeks ago, and I have previously linked to interviews that he has done with Hollywood Jesus<\/a> and Hugh Hewitt<\/a>. See also the interviews that Handel and Aronofsky did together to promote the Noah<\/i> graphic novel here<\/a>, here<\/a> and here<\/a>.<\/p>\n And now for the new stuff. First, The Hollywood Reporter<\/a><\/i> spoke to him at (or maybe just before) the film\u2019s New York premiere two weeks ago:<\/p>\n \u201cWe never wanted to contradict anything in the Bible,\u201d Handel told The Hollywood Reporter<\/i> ahead of the film\u2019s U.S. premiere in New York on Wednesday night. \u201cSo we started there, and basically what we wanted to look at were: What are the themes and questions that the story\u2019s bringing forward that we should be grappling with? So we read Genesis very carefully to look at what we thought it was about, and then we tried to dramatize that and make it human.\u201d . . .<\/p>\n Handel added that although Noah<\/i> has a much bigger budget than Aronofsky\u2019s previous films, at more than $125 million, the core elements are the same as those on his smaller pictures.<\/p>\n \u201cThe essential things are the same, which is you\u2019re struggling to make everything as coherent as you can and make the story go together as well as you can,\u201d Handel said. \u201cThere\u2019s obviously more tools, and there\u2019s therefore more complexity and more things that could go wrong, but fundamentally the concerns are the same.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Handel also spoke to Catholic News Service<\/a> shortly before the film came out:<\/p>\n \u201cWe worried about making the story work, looking at the Noah story in Genesis, grappling with it, grappling with what the themes were, and trying to make that dramatic, and trying to make that there for people to feel the things that are present in that text,\u201d Handel said.<\/p>\n \u201cWe didn\u2019t worry about the marketing and the selling, and who it\u2019s for and all. We worried about making this story the right story and making it a powerful and effective piece of cinema.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The Jewish Week<\/a><\/i> spoke to Handel shortly after<\/i> the film came out:<\/p>\n In what way did your Judaism impact your filmmaking?<\/b><\/p>\n I\u2019d say here there was my fascination with the story of Noah, midrash and tradition and how you can take on the text and look at its closely. There are a lot of questions that are left unanswered and can be interpreted in different ways. As a storyteller, you look at it and wonder about how Noah lived when it doesn\u2019t say it in the text.<\/p>\n There is a scene where we hear the cries of and see the people who are about to drown. Did you have any concern that audience would think you were portraying God as evil?<\/b><\/p>\n We\u2019re telling the story, maybe in an evocative way, but the fact is that all the other people were wiped out. This is a film that doesn\u2019t shy away from questions. You have to think about what kind of world are we living in and what sort of film are we making. We weren\u2019t making a film just about Noah with his family, and they\u2019re happy and smiley and everyone is under one roof. There are a lot of things it doesn\u2019t say in the text, and you have to imagine how it might have been. Our goal was to create a film that would bring the Noah story to the 21st century that examined the truths that there was wickedness and destruction.<\/p>\n In the film, Noah sees another version of himself. Are you trying to say that everyone should guard against being taken over by their darker impulses?<\/b><\/p>\n One of the things we feel the story is about as a myth and as a parable is that there is goodness and wickedness in all man, and we\u2019re trying to grapple with that. There are good people but that doesn\u2019t mean they are totally good. After the flood, you flip the page and you have the story of the Tower of Babel and there is wickedness again.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Jacob Sahms<\/a> spoke to Handel for another Hollywood Jesus interview:<\/p>\n Why do you think that the story of Noah matters to so many people, from such different backgrounds and perspectives?<\/b><\/p>\n AH: The flood narratives are everywhere. There\u2019s something iconic and mythical about the whole world being nearly destroyed and then we\u2019re given a second chance. Maybe we deserve [a second chance] but we\u2019ve got to work for it.<\/p>\n If Noah was alive today, what might he tell us about wickedness versus righteousness?<\/b><\/p>\n AH:That\u2019s a good question. There\u2019s a direct parallel between making sure we have dominion which we know we have over the earth and also being good stewards. We\u2019re supposed to tend to everything and keep the garden. We\u2019re living in the second chance that the world received through Noah. . . .<\/p>\n Watching the film and discussing it with my wife, we talked about how Noah gets the vision of what he believes the Creator wants him to do but he can\u2019t fulfill it without his wife, Naameh. How did you decide on that relationship as key, especially when it came to working out justice and mercy?<\/b><\/p>\n AH: Look, we\u2019re trying to find the relationship that would allow us to figure out who Noah is. We know they live in this time where Enoch walked with God and was taken up; it\u2019s living memory. Noah is righteous. Naameh believes God has spoken to Noah and has complete faith in him. She\u2019s the humanistic family foil. It\u2019s not about a sense of right and wrong. It\u2019s not justice or mercy.<\/p>\n So what is righteousness in the context of the story?<\/b><\/p>\n AH: Righteousness is the correct balance of justice and mercy. We don\u2019t read that story and normally think about those who don\u2019t survive. For all we know Na\u2019el [Ham\u2019s momentary love interest] might\u2019ve been righteous. She might have been wicked. There\u2019s wickedness in all of us. But Ham made the connection, so we care.<\/p>\n It grieved God\u2019s heart\u2014we know, because it says it right there in the Scripture\u2014he didn\u2019t lightly take the lives of all of those people. There was a baby born that day that didn\u2019t make it onto the ark. It\u2019s not black and white. God was prepared to let people who moved his heart to not be saved because that\u2019s what needed to happen.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n For what it\u2019s worth, Handel\u2019s \u201cthere was a baby born that day\u201d comment reminds me of how Jesus characterized life before the Flood<\/a>: \u201cPeople were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark.\u201d<\/p>\n Handel also spoke to Emma Koonse<\/a> at The Christian Post<\/i> last week:<\/p>\n The native New Yorker also explained why he thought \u201cNoah\u201d did so well in theaters during its opening weekend.<\/p>\n \u201cWell, ultimately, at heart, Noah is a deeply powerful story that resonated with people,\u201d Handel told CP. \u201cA lot of the baggage people had with the story, deep down, made the film interesting and moving. Also, it\u2019s a film unlike any other out there and people responded to it. \u2018Noah\u2019 makes people think and ask questions, and you aren\u2019t sure exactly that to make of it, which isn\u2019t that common. People like that challenge.\u201d . . .<\/p>\n Given his impassioned work on \u201cNoah,\u201d Handel revealed his surprise over the widespread controversy sparked by the film ahead of its release.<\/p>\n \u201cI was initially surprised because if you\u2019ve seen the film, you\u2019d see we are not disrespectful, not mocking [Scripture],\u201d the writer told CP. \u201cIf anything, we took it very, very seriously. Where we went with the story may not be where others go, that\u2019s fine. But to say that we grafted artificial ideas or a political agenda- we were just wrestling with the text.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Finally (for now!), Patheos blogger David R. Henson<\/a> spoke to Handel last week:<\/p>\n One of the things that leapt out at me as I was watching was just how fantastic and imaginative and bold the world you created for Noah was but also how faithful it was not just to the biblical text but to midrashic tradition and all the other things that have been written about it. How hard was it for you as a writer to balance those two demands of the actual biblical text but also the need to be imaginative and creative to bring this thing to life?<\/i><\/p>\n Ari Handel:<\/b> I think we thought it was going to be hard, but then we discovered that it was easier than we thought because it turns out as you look at the midrashic texts and even when you do a close look at Genesis, the antediluvian world in Genesis is magical and fantastic. It\u2019s funny because we don\u2019t have that idea in our heads. We have the idea in our head that it\u2019s set in Mesopotamia or ancient Judea but it\u2019s not. It\u2019s a really strange world. There are no rainbows. The sky and light are different in some way. People are living hundreds and thousands of years. There are sea monsters and giant monsters of the deep that are no more. Eden is located at a position that you could walk to across the world becuase there\u2019s an angel with a flaming sword that won\u2019t let you into it. These things sound more like Middle Earth than the hills of Judea. . . .<\/p>\n Given how faithful you guys were to the text and the tradition have you been surprised by the kind of pushback you got, particularly for evangelical Christians.<\/i><\/p>\n AH:<\/b> I was not surprised that people would say, \u201cHey, wait a second.\u201d Because sometimes unless you think about it carefully, it may seem we are contradicting something. I would hold that we\u2019re not. But that may not be obvious. What surprised me, I think, sometimes was the vitriol of that.<\/b> That people felt like we were being disrespectful, or antagonistic, or trying to mock, which is really not where we were coming from at all. Some of that has gone away as people have actually seen the film. For instance, people say, \u201cGod\u2019s not even in the movie.\u201d If you\u2019ve seen the movie, to say God\u2019s not in the movie, then we\u2019re not even talking about the same thing. . . .<\/p>\n I love that you guys offer a really unflinching view of human wickedness and of our complicity in it. But this is something I can wrestle with in the text: Does God become complicit in that kind of cycle of violence by sending the Flood and causing that much destruction, and how do you deal with that?<\/i><\/p>\n AH:<\/b> To be totally clear we don\u2019t feel like we have all the answers. We want to find a way to raise these question in a visceral way for people. So if you\u2019re asking my opinion about that, it\u2019s complicated. We decided to view this a little as a test. Like God said, \u201cI don\u2019t know what to do about this, let\u2019s see if you find mercy in your heart.\u201d<\/b><\/p>\n I\u2019m so glad you said that. It leads right into my next question because you guys have talked about that movement from justice to mercy, from punishment to mercy. What I found really striking is there are threads of mercy throughout your film. The Watchers take mercy on humanity and are punished for it. When Ham has mercy on Nael and he is kind of punished for that. And then Noah at the very end chooses mercy with the twins. And the question that I appreciate you all leaving open-ended was whether that was defiance of God. I appreciate you not answering every question but leaving it out there because I think it is more faithful to the text that way.<\/i><\/p>\n AH:<\/b> In the Abraham story, when God destroys Sodom, Abraham says, \u201cPlease God be merciful.\u201d And God learns something from Abraham. So, \u2014 I\u2019m tiptoeing \u2014 because I know that is some Christian communities it may be a heretical thing to say that God can learn something from man, but when I look at the Abraham story, I see that. So I see no reason why God couldn\u2019t put this decision in Noah\u2019s hands, and say, \u201cHere is a really good man. Here is a really just man. Here\u2019s man who sees the wickedness of mankind as clearly as I (God) see it. I\u2019m going to let him decide. And if he choses mercy, I\u2019ll chose mercy.\u201d<\/b> I\u2019m not saying that\u2019s the only interpretation, but that\u2019s an interpretation that we can play with.<\/p>\n And you see that a lot in the Hebrew scriptures with God changing God\u2019s mind, and if you look at the original language, it actually seems to mean something like repentance. There is that present in the Scriptures. I appreciate you guys tackling that straight-on and not having it in a tidy bow. <\/i><\/p>\n As a writer myself, some of the most beautiful lines in the film were when your characters talked about the silence or absence of God. Were those intentional things you guys were wrestling with in the text and the silence of God and what\u2019s the significance of that for the struggle you create in the film.<\/p>\n AH:<\/b> It\u2019s a funny thing because in the film we wanted to God to feel incredibly present \u2014 all the time, everywhere. And yet we wanted to have some amount of distance between God and people, because of where we are now. It\u2019s obscure sometimes now. And that seemed like an interesting way to go, to capture the ambiguity of the relationship and the challenge of that relationship. At first, you\u2019ve got God and Adam together and they walk in the garden. They were very close. In some ways you can see Genesis as a slow retreat of God from the world, as a physical presence. So there\u2019s a little bit of that there too. By the time you get Moses, you can\u2019t walk with God. You can\u2019t even look up the face of God. So God is behind a burning bush or within a column of smoke. So this notion of a retreat. As this antedilluvian world changed with the Flood into our world I think we also wanted to feel some kind of distant in the way that our world is.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n And that\u2019s it for now. If I come across any more interviews, I\u2019ll add them to this post.<\/p>\n April 18 update:<\/b> Three weeks ago, Sojourners<\/i> published an interview that Cathleen Falsani<\/a> did with Handel during the junket in Los Angeles. A sampling:<\/p>\n CF: I know what Darren says about his interest in the Noah story and where it came from and how it started. I think it probably started even earlier than he\u2019s aware. How did you come to it?<\/strong><\/p>\n AH: I\u2019m Jewish. Raised mildly observant. What that meant was I went to synagogue every Saturday for probably 10 years. \u2026<\/p>\n I read all these stories. I read the Jonah story a million times and the Noah story. So I knew all these stories. They were in my mind. I didn\u2019t read them for meaning<\/em>. I read them for stories<\/em>. I don\u2019t even know if I was old enough to get some of these other things. But when Darren said, \u2018What do you think about trying to tell the Noah story?\u2019 I was immediately excited about it. You can pick it up and look at it and you notice two things: First you realize wow \u2014 this is everything that people want to make movies about. Good versus evil and the end of the world. All of that stuff is there. It\u2019s got all that great stuff. But then it\u2019s so much more of a darker, poignant, confusing story that we already know. We have the opportunity to dive really deep in a certain way into the story but also to uncover some things that people put aside in their daily life or their daily understanding of the story.<\/p>\n So much of what we get is the sweet, happy, animal-saving story, which it is. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s accidental that [the Noah story] wound up in the nursery room. Because we really didn\u2019t want to think about some of the other things. \u2018Let\u2019s put it over there where it\u2019ll be safe.\u2019 It\u2019s a really troubling, dark story.<\/p>\n Bill Maher has this whole thing where he says God is a genocidal so and so. And there\u2019s not a lot to defend against that. I mean, everyone but eight people die. There\u2019s a lot of destruction and death. I think you have to face that and then ask, \u2018OK, what is this story telling us? What is this about? What does it mean?\u2019<\/p>\n CF: The Watchers \u2014 the Nephilim \u2014 that\u2019s also a part of the account that we often skip over. What on earth was that about? Angels had sex with human women and these were the progeny? What?<\/strong><\/p>\n AH: It\u2019s a crazy line, right? There were fallen angels and they saw that human women were beautiful and they had children with them.<\/p>\n CF: Horny angels?<\/strong><\/p>\n AH: Right. And I suppose there\u2019s some version of the story where we could have riffed off of that. But we\u2019re PG-13. So we looked at that in a far more metaphorical way. Angels that loved mankind. What does that mean?<\/p>\n The Book of Enoch<\/em> and The Book of Jubilees<\/em> that talk about these guys; there\u2019s a tradition that gets tied to the fallen angels and Satan, angels with hubris fell and they had anger with mankind. We thought it was far more interesting to think about angels that loved mankind. And we thought, let\u2019s not think about that physically or sexually. Let\u2019s think about that emotionally. What if you\u2019re an angel and you see mankind born and you love mankind? And then you see the original sin and man is kicked out of the garden, expelled from the garden and they have to toil the soil. And all of a sudden we go from a lovely place to a really hard place. And you love them and God\u2019s punished them. What if you felt pity for them and came to earth to help? So that\u2019s the place where we started from. That\u2019s the kind of love we talked about.<\/p>\n There\u2019s a big theme in the film about mercy and justice and the balance. That allowed us to have a character, which is the Nephilim, who maybe had an excess of mercy. Where God was judging, the angels were being merciful. So the angels move from a place of mercy to a place of justice, the same way that Noah and God in the story move from a place a justice toward a place of mercy.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n More interviews later, if I find any.<\/p>\n April 15 update:<\/b> Handel addressed the ethnicity of the movie\u2019s characters in another interview, and I have written an entire post about that here<\/a>.<\/p>\n