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<\/a>A week ago Friday, I interviewed Steve Taylor over the phone \u2014 and I did not realize until afterwards that our chat had taken place exactly 12 years to the day after my very first interview<\/a> with him, way back when I was just a star-struck university student happy to write for no pay at all; just the joy of meeting one of my favorite songwriters and seeing my name in print was enough.<\/span><\/p>\n
Between these two interviews, I also interviewed Taylor in 1995<\/a> (when he returned to SonFest), in 1997<\/a> (when the Squint record label got off the ground and he began seriously talking about making a movie), and in 1999<\/a> (for an article on Christian actors and musicians getting involved in secular film).<\/p>\n A rather condensed version of this interview will be in the August issue of BC Christian News<\/i>, which comes out this weekend.<\/p>\n \u2013 \u2013 \u2013<\/p>\n By Peter T. Chattaway<\/p>\n IN THE 1980s, Steve Taylor was one of the more popular Christian rock stars \u2014 and one of the genre\u2019s wittier and more scathingly satirical writers. A former film student at the University of Colorado, Taylor also directed some of CCM\u2019s earliest and most interesting \u201cconcept\u201d music videos, for songs like \u2018Meltdown<\/a>\u2018 and \u2018Lifeboat<\/a>\u2018.<\/i><\/p>\n After a brief spell as head of the Squint music label in the late 1990s \u2014 during which he produced Sixpence None the Richer\u2019s hit single \u2018Kiss Me\u2019 \u2014 Taylor turned his attention to filmmaking. The result is The Second Chance<\/a>, starring Michael W. Smith as the popular music minister of a large, comfy suburban megachurch and jeff obafemi carr as an inner-city pastor with a large chip on his shoulder.<\/i><\/p>\n The film is now out on DVD<\/a>, and I spoke with Taylor about it over the phone.<\/p>\n I feel obliged to say that this may be the first time I\u2019ve interviewed a filmmaker after<\/i> hearing his commentary \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Oh wow, right.<\/p>\n \u2014 \u2019cause usually when I interview people, it\u2019s usually when films have their theatrical releases or whatever.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Yeah, right. Well this is the first time I\u2019ve had<\/i> an interview after doing a commentary, so \u2014<\/p>\n Oh really?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Yeah.<\/p>\n So, you\u2019ve been talking about making a movie for quite a while, a feature-length film, and now it\u2019s actually happened.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: That\u2019s right. They were mostly idle threats, but it finally came true.<\/p>\n So why did it come true now? What was it that made everything coalesce at this point?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Well, I had a couple of false starts. I actually had money to do a project that I\u2019d done a treatment for, called Saint Gimp<\/i>, but I kind of put it on the back-burner when we did a table reading, the first table reading, where you get actors around the dining-room table and have them read it back to you, and it just was obvious that this was not a movie that was ready to be shot.<\/p>\n So instead of trying to go in and do a massive overhaul, I thought, \u201cMaybe I should do something on a subject that I know a little more about\u201d \u2014 kind of the \u201cwrite what you know\u201d advice. And that\u2019s where I came up with the thought of\u2013 I thought that most Hollywood depictions of church life and pastors and those settings usually felt to me like they were made by people who don\u2019t go to church.<\/p>\n And so I thought it would be interesting to try something set in that world, make it redemptive but also make it realistic and try to make characters where there weren\u2019t any easy good guys and bad guys, or kind of where everybody has their reasons.<\/p>\n So you actually had money for Saint Gimp<\/i>, then?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: I did, yeah.<\/p>\n And you actually cast it as well?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: I never cast it. It was going to be about 25 percent animated, and we actually started the animating \u2014 and in fact, somewhere there\u2019s a website<\/a> you can go and see some of the stuff that was being done, because I was working with a guy, Jonathan Richter, who had done this \u2018Cash Cow<\/a>\u2018 video for me a while back, and he was on the staff at Squint. So the animation part would have been good.<\/p>\n But I just, between myself and the other writers working on it, we just ended up with a plot that was kind of overcooked, and kind of probably too clever for its own good, and we were almost writing above our means at that point. We just didn\u2019t have enough experience to pull it off. It wasn\u2019t a lot of money, but it was enough to probably\u2013 It was at least enough to get me into trouble. So in retrospect, it probably was best that it all worked out this way. Because I recognized that it was a big job to do a movie and that project was probably just a little too ambitious for my abilities at the time.<\/p>\n Is there a possibility you might go back to that in the future?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Yeah, you know, I went back and rewrote the first act and got it to where I really liked it, so it kind of intrigues me now to try to revisit it some time. I think once you\u2019ve gone through the process of doing a movie, you learn so much in that process that that\u2019s probably why getting in is so difficult, because people who are savvy on filmmaking realize that there\u2019s a really big jump between never having directed a movie and directing one and then, y\u2019know, directing a second one.<\/p>\n You\u2019ve directed music videos before too, right?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: I have, and those give you sort of a false sense of security, like, \u201cMaybe I could direct a movie, I\u2019ve done music videos,\u201d and really there\u2019s very little in common.<\/p>\n Really? Because obviously, the writing would be different, because you\u2019ve got to write for two hours and not for five minutes \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right.<\/p>\n \u2014 but what about being on the set? Is that different as well?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: It is, because really, with a music video, it\u2019s like you\u2019re adding images to a pre-recorded soundtrack \u2014 so it\u2019s just a vast jump. And there are some really good directors that have come out of music videos. But there are some other directors that have come out of that, and they\u2019re surrounded by an entire group of Hollywood technicians and producers and people who are essentially making the movie almost for<\/i> them instead of with<\/i> them. So I don\u2019t think\u2013 Let\u2019s just say it\u2019s a lot bigger leap than probably most of us realize.<\/p>\n And I had actually done a Newsboys long-form piece, a comedy, about four or five years ago, with the intent of, \u201cWell this will give me the experience to better know how to direct a movie,\u201d and I think that probably was the case. It\u2019s just that, then the record label came along, and it ended up being a longer span of time before I was finally able to get to this.<\/p>\n In the past, dealing with music, you had to wrestle with that whole question of whether you were in the \u201cChristian\u201d genre, as it were, or whether you were not going to be so confined by that label \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right.<\/p>\n \u2014 and you had the experience with Chagall Guevara<\/a> and so forth. Making a film, did you wrestle with those issues as well? Because looking at The Second Chance<\/i>, it seems like a very \u201cChristian\u201d film.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n It\u2019s got Michael W. Smith, and the title even sounds like a very safe sort of Christian title, you know what I mean?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right. Oh, I agree. I did wrestle with that, which is probably why that was originally not my intent, to do a movie like this first. It ended up being a combination of things.<\/p>\n I was simultaneously working on a comedy \u2014 and in some ways I would have preferred to do the comedy first, because it was going to be a movie played strictly for laughs \u2014 but the Second Chance<\/i> screenplay ended up being done first. In retrospect, it\u2019s probably better that way, because I think a movie like The Second Chance<\/i> had a little more margin for error, when you\u2019re doing a drama, than when you\u2019re doing a comedy, where you have to really kind of thread the needle.<\/p>\n And really, once I got into this movie, particularly with the issues of racial reconciliation and what\u2019s the nature of service, it felt like the only way to make this movie work was to make it a movie primarily for fellow Christians. I haven\u2019t found it a movie that\u2019s sort of inscrutable to people outside the Christian faith, I think they understand it and get it, and a lot of them have enjoyed it. But the movie resonates more with fellow Christians, because when you\u2019re dealing with some of those issues, the nature of why is Sunday morning so segregated and things like that, what does God require of us, is it just about giving money, or is it about giving of ourselves \u2014 I think a lot of those questions have their deepest resonance with my fellow Christians.<\/p>\n So it\u2019s safe to call this a \u201cChristian film\u201d, then?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Well, the only reason I haven\u2019t called it that is because it puts me in such bad company. It\u2019s like it makes people think of end-times dramas<\/a> and their sequels.<\/p>\n At least one of which, by the way, is advertised on the DVD that your film is on.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Well that\u2019s another thing. I went in with so many\u2013 Since I was funding a third of the movie myself, I had final cut and total creative latitude, and then Sony buys the movie and I\u2019m not worried about it because I\u2019ve got final cut, but then what happens to the DVD, I have virtually nothing to do with. There were commentaries that they insisted be deleted, and they were concerned I was being too self-critical and things like that, and I was like, \u201cY\u2019know, what do you care?\u201d So there were aspects to the DVD release that were a little bit frustrating for me. Anyway, they\u2019re selling a ton of DVDs, so I guess I shouldn\u2019t complain too much.<\/p>\n Did the studio give you a copy of the DVD or did you have to go and buy it?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: No, I still don\u2019t have a copy of the DVD. I\u2019m anxious to find out\u2013 I mean, it was frustrating. I was going, \u201cSend me a copy so I can at least tell if you got it right or not.\u201d It\u2019s like, I would never make a record and not check a master disc, right? And Sony says, \u201cOh, well, we don\u2019t do that.\u201d It\u2019s like, what? Well who\u2019s supposed to know if this is right or not?<\/p>\n It wouldn\u2019t have occurred to me to even ask that question if it weren\u2019t for the fact that\u2013 Do you know Hoodwinked<\/a><\/i>, the cartoon?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Hoodwinked<\/i>, yeah right. I like those guys a lot.<\/p>\n Cory Edwards has a blog<\/a>, and when Hoodwinked<\/i> came out<\/a>, he posted something about going down to Tower Records to buy his movie<\/a> \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: (laughs)<\/i> Right.<\/p>\n \u2014 because the studio just didn\u2019t give him a copy.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: No, I haven\u2019t gotten a copy, I don\u2019t even know what it looks like yet! I mean, I shouldn\u2019t act too disingenuous. I saw the cover, and I told them I hate it, and they ignored me. I like the movie poster a lot, but I thought the cover was really cheesy. And I saw the\u2013 They let me know that they weren\u2019t going to be putting a lot of the stuff on the DVD that I wanted to put on, and I complained bitterly and they ignored it, and so I guess that\u2019s how these big studios work.<\/p>\n Wow. So is it a bit of a comedown from when you used to run your own label and used to be in charge of all those things? Do you miss the control?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Well, part of the frustration has been\u2013 I started a record label just because I was so tired of having to deal with things like that, and as a recording artist myself, I have to say I had always been given an extraordinary amount of creative freedom and leeway, but I was really shocked at how many artists didn\u2019t get that. And so, at Squint, obviously all our artists were very involved with everything to do with their project, and I just figured that that\u2019s the way it should be. But I learned of course that that\u2019s not typical.<\/p>\n And so making the movie was a great experience, and for better or for worse, the movie that you see is the movie that that was the best I could do, I can\u2019t blame anyone for any mistakes, they were all my mistakes, and that\u2019s what I was wanting the opportunity to have. But when it came time for the DVD, as far as the extras go and everything like that, I guess that\u2019s just something that I forgot to ask for on the contract.<\/p>\n You mentioned a comedy that you were working on at the same time. That\u2019s not Saint Gimp<\/i>, then, I gather.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: No, no, it\u2019s another project. I probably don\u2019t want to talk too much about it at this point, but the script is pretty close to being done, and I\u2019m trying to raise money for it. I\u2019m assuming it\u2019ll be easier the next time around because it couldn\u2019t have been any harder.<\/p>\n I have to admit that I was kind of one of these people who thought The Second Chance<\/i> wasn\u2019t what I was expecting from \u201ca Steve Taylor film\u201d, initially. I\u2019ve seen the film twice now, once when it first came out, and then once on DVD, and the first time around, I was a little surprised by the fact that it wasn\u2019t, shall we say, an absurdist satire.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right.<\/p>\n It didn\u2019t have quite the level of humour that I would have expected, based on some of your most popular or favorite songs. However, on the second viewing<\/a>, I came to realize that it does fit in with a more serious strain in some of your songs. It\u2019s more like \u2018The Finish Line<\/a>\u2018 than \u2018Guilty by Association<\/a>\u2018.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right. Oh man, nicely put.<\/p>\n So for those who were hoping for a really funny, wild, crazy Steve Taylor movie, and then they see this more sort of gritty, inner-city drama, how would you respond to that?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Yeah, I mean, first I would say, y\u2019know, sorry about that. Because I think that\u2019s an understandable criticism. If I had been a good-enough filmmaker to make Saint Gimp<\/i>, I think that\u2019s probably more like what they \u2014 y\u2019know, fans \u2014 would have been expecting. I would suppose the comedy that, Lord willing, I\u2019ll be doing next is more along the lines of what you were talking about too.<\/p>\n Even in editing The Second Chance<\/i>, there were so many times when we\u2019d get stuck on something, and I would be thinking, man, if this were a comedy, I would know exactly what to do right here. But it\u2019s not that kind of movie. Probably, I think what happened was, on one hand, the subject matter dictated a certain amount of serious intent, and I think there were some good and subversive elements in the movie. But honestly, in the thick of it, it was just hard to do that without losing the thread of what the movie was about, and it\u2019s certainly not a feel-good movie, and I wanted the movie to leave you thinking.<\/p>\n And I think I even mentioned this in the commentary: I kind of feel like the movie doesn\u2019t really get going until about 20 minutes in, and most of the editing and cuts that were done were to try and make that first act shorter and more concise and get the thing moving faster. It was kind of really difficult, you know, it wasn\u2019t really until they take the tour of the \u2018hood that I think the movie really kind of kicks in and starts moving. So yeah, I think that\u2019s a fair criticism, and a lot of it\u2019s just the result of a rookie filmmaker.<\/p>\n How well did you know some of those neighbourhoods before you started shooting there? Or even before you started writing the script?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: I actually kind of needed those locations almost in some way before I could even start writing some of the scenes.<\/p>\n For example, the Second Chance church I found early on in the writing process, and once I got the approval from the congregation to use that as a location, then \u2014 along with Ben Pearson in particular and Chip Arnold, the other writers \u2014 I took them around and we walked around some of those other areas, and started writing some of the other scenes based on what was happening in that neighbourhood.<\/p>\n So all the stuff, like, under the bridge is of course right around the corner from the church, and the fact that this freeway had come along and essentially separated the church from its neighbourhood seemed like a good metaphor for what was happening in the movie, and the pedestrian bridge that crosses the freeway is right around the corner from the church, so a lot of it just came from what that actual neighbourhood kind of set is.<\/p>\n So you actually explored the neighbourhood with the purpose of making the film there? It wasn\u2019t a neighbourhood that you knew beforehand?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: No, in fact, that\u2019s how a lot of the film kind of came together, and we kind of carried through that in the actual production as well, using people from the neighbourhood as extras, and the homeless people you see in the movie are actual homeless people from shelters in the neighbourhood that we paid for being extras for the day. And the projects where we shot had the nickname \u201cDodge City\u201d because of the amount of gunplay that goes on there, and has since been torn down, so we kind of got in under the wire before it got torn down, because it\u2019s just a bad kind of neighbourhood that was getting to be kind of hopeless. So yeah, the process of locations and the story was very connected.<\/p>\n You mentioned racial reconciliation. Is this movie primarily about race, or would it be fair to say that it\u2019s more about class, or economic disparity?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Yeah, well, I think it\u2019s a mix. In the United States, the two are very closely connected, at least they are for a lot of parts of the country, and I think the class aspect of it is in some ways more important. I don\u2019t know many kind of old-school racists, I don\u2019t know that that many exist any more.<\/p>\n I think a lot of sociologists refer to it more as \u201cracialization\u201d, where we\u2019re separated because of economics and, as a result, often times we don\u2019t have all that much connection. People in the suburbs go to church, and their churches are a reflection of where they live, and those churches end up being predominantly white, and a lot of inner-city churches end up being predominantly black, and of course a lot of areas become more racially mixed with Hispanic people moving in. So we tried to reflect that<\/p>\n In many ways, Nashville is a microcosm for what\u2019s going on in a lot of the country, and race is still a tricky topic to deal with. But it feels like dealing with it in the context of the church was particularly interesting, because race relations are\u2013 They\u2019re decreed by law, that the workplace has to be integrated, and that the military has to be integrated, education, and yet going to church is still voluntary, and it\u2019s still the most kind of segregated hour of the week, as Dr. King said 40 years ago.<\/p>\n It\u2019s interesting, because another reason why the film didn\u2019t seem quite like the \u201cSteve Taylor movie\u201d I was expecting was because this didn\u2019t seem like an issue that you had really addressed in your music, with the possible exception of \u2018Color Code<\/a>\u2018. But even there, \u2018Color Code\u2019 kind of specifically targeted extreme cases, Bob Jones and South Africa, both of which don\u2019t even apply any more \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right, right. (laughs)<\/i><\/p>\n So that was another reason why the subject matter of this film struck me as a little unexpected, just because it didn\u2019t strike me as something you had dealt with before.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: You know, part of it might have been just living in Nashville now for 15 years, and it\u2019s not that Nashville has particularly bad race relations. Certainly a city like Cincinnati with riots a few years ago, and we could come up with a lot of good examples of cities that, from the outside, appear to have particularly bad race relations. I don\u2019t think Nashville is like that, it\u2019s just that white people and black people tend to live apart.<\/p>\n And when it comes to church, that same thing happens, and you can count on one hand the number of racially diverse churches in our city, and it just doesn\u2019t happen very often. There\u2019s models of that happening across the country, but it\u2019s just not happening a lot.<\/p>\n So yeah, it felt like a good subject, partly because I felt like I was part of the problem. I know I\u2019m not a racist, y\u2019know, so kind of my attitude is, \u201cWell what\u2019s the problem? Can\u2019t we all get along?\u201d And in the process of making this movie, certainly writing the movie, I found out a lot about why Sunday mornings are still so segregated. And as the majority culture, we don\u2019t have to think about. We just assume that everything\u2019s fine \u2014 y\u2019know, what\u2019s the problem?<\/p>\n Listening to your commentary was very interesting, because you told anecdotes of a sort that you just normally don\u2019t hear on a regular movie commentary, some of the issues you had to deal with. Talking for example about using the word \u201cdamn\u201d in church \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: (laughs)<\/i> Right.<\/p>\n \u2014 and how apparently jeff carr used the word during a take when he shouldn\u2019t have, or something.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right, right.<\/p>\n How was it actually just navigating issues like that, things like language? There\u2019s the famous anecdote about Steve Camp and Tony Campolo, that whole thing of saying, \u201cPeople are dying in Africa and nobody here gives a damn, and you\u2019re more concerned about me using that word than you are about the fact that people are dying.\u201d<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right.<\/p>\n It\u2019s a common thing you hear, and yet I do know people, personally \u2014 actually, Tony Campolo said that at a church that I attended 20 years ago, and years later, there was a person at my church who still had no respect for him because he did that.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right, right.<\/p>\n So how was it, having to make those kinds of artistic decisions for a movie like this? Because I\u2019m sure there are other people who would say that you could have gone even further with the language.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Oh absolutely.<\/p>\n If you look at a movie like To End All Wars<\/a><\/i>, that had even harsher language, and that was a Christian film set during World War II.<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Right, yup. I mean, it\u2019s a tightrope that you\u2019re walking, y\u2019know. Part of the reason that the movie sort of has almost this sort of gang aspect of it that was kind of off to the side of the subplot, was because there was no way I could deal with that realistically if that was any more of the plot. And so it comes up a couple times on the bridge, and they\u2019re in the presence of a pastor, so I figured it\u2019s conceivable I guess that they wouldn\u2019t go out of their way to use language in front of the pastor.<\/p>\n But even then, it was a very difficult decision to make. Obviously, I couldn\u2019t make anything gratuitous, and at the same time, you couldn\u2019t make it totally sort of sanitized either. So it was tricky. At one point I was thinking, \u201cWhy am I trying to make this movie, y\u2019know? Because nobody\u2019s going to be happy with this!\u201d But I don\u2019t know, it still felt like the subject matter was compelling and it was a subject that I hadn\u2019t seen addressed satisfactorily within the church, so I just thought it would be interesting.<\/p>\n You mentioned also that the church where you filmed the movie, apparently the people there initially thought you were making an R-rated movie or something?<\/b><\/p>\n Taylor: Yeah, right! Oh man, I wish I would have had a camera during that first meeting, because they went into the meeting thinking it was an R-rated movie, and it was like sitting at a table with about six undertakers, and they were just really grim-looking, and I thought, \u201cWell, maybe this is just kind of how they are.\u201d And then they said why they had a problem, and I explained to them, \u201cI don\u2019t know where you got your information, but that\u2019s not what this movie is.\u201d And the mood so completely turned around and lightened, and we all got along great. In fact, the senior pastor at the church and I still keep in regular contact, so we ended up having a great experience.<\/p>\n But man, in retrospect, it was a really funny meeting, because I just had to have that church, y\u2019know. I loved that location, and had already started writing it with it in mind, and I just had no backup. I never like to be in that position but I didn\u2019t have a backup, I just had to be able to shoot it in that church, so they were really gracious and let us do it there.<\/p>\n I couldn\u2019t help thinking that it is terribly easy to get an R rating, just through language, even. If you use a certain word two or three times, there you go.<\/b><\/p>\n