5 Reasons Why Reading Charisma News Might Be Toxic For Your Faith

5 Reasons Why Reading Charisma News Might Be Toxic For Your Faith March 18, 2015

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I’m sure you’ve probably seen a Charisma News article flow through your Facebook or Twitter feed. Perhaps you’ve clicked the link a few times, or even worse, maybe you’ve occasionally strolled into the comment section. If you have, you probably already know what I’m about to tell you, but I think it bears repeating out loud: reading Charisma News articles is toxic to our faith and probably should be avoided. Here’s 5 reasons why I think this is the case:

1. Charisma News Breeds a Gospel of Fear.

The moment Jesus arrives on the scene of human history we see the angels make one of the most important declarations in all of scripture: “Be not afraid!” In fact, we see some variation of this phrase a few dozen times in scripture depending on the translation. However, the Gospel message of “be not afraid” is not what you’ll find at Charisma- instead, you’ll find an entire platform that is based on fear.

Where scripture tells us “be not afraid,” the message of Charisma News is:

“Holy crap folks! The gays and Muslims are coming- this is a sure sign of the end times! Yikes… what if some of those Muslims are gay on top of being Muslim? We’re doomed if we don’t do something fast. If the Liberal Evangelicals take over, we’re going to have a country flooded with gay Muslims who will not only force you to bake wedding cakes for gay marriages, they’re going to start MAKING you attend the wedding itself. Oh, and about Millennials- what if they decide to elect an Evangelical Pope? And what if they vote in Rachel Held Evans and she makes an ex cathedra declaration that only women can be pastors from now on???? It’s time to do battle!!”

See? Sounds ridiculous but that’s not all that satyrical. Charisma News preaches a Gospel of fear, and that’s not the Gospel at all.

2. Charisma News Promotes Anti-Christ Values.

In my experience, it seems that the central question Charisma News is trying to answer is: who is our enemy and how do we defeat them? Whether it’s Muslims, gay people, Palestinians, or Liberal Evangelicals, Charisma is enemy focused. Strangely, Christ taught us to love our enemies, but that’s not the direction or position of Charisma News- which makes these teachings “anti-Christ” by definition. Just try commenting “love your enemies” on one of their articles about Islam and see how quickly you are devoured- it’s happened to me one too many times until I learned my lesson.

Because of this enemy focus that is more concerned with enemy defeat instead of enemy love, their platform has spiraled into a cesspool of anti-Christ negativity that does not produce beautiful results but instead fuels fighting among people who should be busy loving (something Prov 6:16-19 calls an abomination).

Remember: “Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.” 2 Tim 2:23

3. Charisma News Slanders People.

The inaccuracies one can find in Charisma articles are astounding, but they cross the line into slander when they do it not out of ignorance but out of a desire do discredit opponents. A sad example was an article the other day written by Chelsen Vicari (the same person who wrote a book about how Rachel Held Evans, Sarah Bessey, Shane Claiborne and myself are going to destroy the world or something- and who was caught distorting the truth previously). The article seemed to hint that Rachel was somehow pro-abortion, which is untrue. This article simply followed a pattern of twisting facts in order to smear people, which is slander pure and simple. The irony? The same passage many of them quote about homosexuality actually includes slanderers as people who won’t enter God’s Kingdom.

4. Charisma News Does Not Help One Attain The Fruits of the Spirit.

The Bible tells us that the evidence we’re on the right path will be that our lives exemplify “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.” Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be what Charisma is selling, nor is it what I (and I assume many of you) experience when reading a Charisma article. It certainly isn’t what I experience when interacting with readers at Charisma. The ultimate evidence of the toxicity of Charisma News is the fruit it produces- it’s not fruit of God’s spirit.

5. Charisma News Might Cause You To Doubt Jesus and the Future of the Church.

 Jesus told Peter that not even the gates of hell would prevail against the mission of the Church he established. Yet, if you stroll into the comment section on just about any article, you’ll severely doubt that. I honestly don’t know how to describe the comment section at Charisma as anything other than “the most depressing place I have ever visited.” I just don’t see God there- I don’t see his beauty, I don’t see love, I don’t see his goodness manifesting itself among a community of believers, and I certainly don’t see Jesus. Spending too much time in there, or even any time at all, could cause one to severely doubt the future of the church and the promise Jesus made to Peter.

There’s a time to be provocative, and there’s a time to forcefully address issues in the church head on (as I’m doing now). But there’s also a thing we call balance- and when that is off, everything is off. The balance at Charisma News is one that I find so over the top in the wrong direction, that I truly believe spending too much time there would result in one walking away as either a fearful, angry, or bitter person- I just don’t see one walking away full of the love of Christ and a love for others. So please, guard your faith- consider permanently fasting from Charisma News articles.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • I have been banned from Commenting on Charisma News. They did not like my comments concerning gay people.

  • James

    Excellent article Benjamin! The folks at Charisma News are certainly unpleasant – the thought of spending an eternity with their ilk and a deity that thinks and acts like them is repellent.

  • Terry Firma

    “Be not afraid” is just about the last thing I get from scripture. Even the New Testament. Sorry.

  • Wolf

    The Bible says “don’t be afraid” well over 100 times. Granted, not the 365 times that some have claimed, but still.

  • jjuulie

    That’s too bad, Terry. “Perfect love casts out fear” has been prinary in my life. I can’t love perfectly, since I’m human, but as I focus on absorbing God’s perfect love, I find a new confidence, peace, and freedom to move forward without fear. Freedom in the Spirit is glorious!

  • Terry Firma

    If you lurve Jesus. The rest of us, whoa boy.

  • Terry Firma

    Getting back on topic: I agree, Charisma = bad news. The constant truth-raping is especially odd. It’s as if they’ve never heard of the Commandment against bearing false witness. Lying for Jesus is OK, I guess: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/12/23/charisma-news-and-ray-comfort-falsely-imply-that-atheists-tried-to-stop-christian-singers-in-a-shopping-mall/

    and

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/11/11/bear-no-false-witness-in-his-latest-piece-for-charisma-news-recidivist-truth-twister-michael-brown-begs-to-differ/

    I have to say though, I do love Charisma writers for their unintentional humor. I had tears of laughter streaming down my face when Charisma’s Jennifer LeClaire told the world that “atheists” were “trying to stir up witches” against her.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/26/editor-at-charisma-news-thinks-atheists-are-trying-to-stir-up-witches-against-her/

    Good times!

  • William Boot

    I don’t see much better at the Christian Post. I want to like the articles but, even when I do like one, the comments are obnoxious. As a church, we have to be defined by what we stand for, not what we are against.

  • Terry Firma

    The Christian Post has some standards that I at least recognize. I actually have a kind of grudging respect for CP.

    Charisma News, by comparison, is just a ball of fury, mendaciousness, and insanity.

  • sketchesbyboze

    And let’s not forget, printing an explicit call for the murder of over a billion people.

  • Mark Lee Schnitzer

    Thank you Benjamin. I have not read anything there until the yesterday when I happened upon the article attacking Rachel Held Evens. I commented about it and quickly was questioned as to whether or not I was “saved”. When I explained my conversion experience I was basically told it wasn’t the “right” conversion experience., even though it led me into hard right religion/politics for over 21 years.

    I will not be reading/commenting there again.
    Peace.

    Mark

  • When I protested their pro-genocide article in the comment section, I was told I was a homely lesbian troll destined to cry under Sharia law because, you know, I’m a lesbian. And no, it wasn’t just one commentator who told me this.

    Apparently, misogyny, homophobia, and genocide are all Christlike virtues, but love and compassion? Nah.

    (For the record – I wasn’t offended at being called a lesbian. But since I’m actually straight, there was no basis for that remark. So I was more offended that they 1) thought lesbian was an insult, and 2) probably chose that label because I was a woman who didn’t fit their gender stereotype).

  • sketchesbyboze

    That’s how they roll over in the comments section. Anyone who disagrees with a hateful opinion, even slightly, is immediately accused of being a nonbeliever / gay / atheist troll. When they printed that post last year calling for genocide against Muslims, reading the comments was like hearing the crowds yell for the death of Jesus.

  • Maura Hart

    I did not realize that you were so powerful as to destroy the whole world. Maybe that’s why I like your blog so much

  • Perhaps that’s a badge of honor? :D

  • HappyCat

    I tend to avoid crazy-making sites. And the longer I foray into Christian online communities the more I appreciate the geek/nerd community. ‘The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they’ve found it’. – Terry Pratchett from Monstrous Regiment

  • LimeyDave

    I suppose I don’t run in the right circles as I’ve never read or heard of Charisma News, (or maybe I AM running in the right circles as I keep the heck out of their way?). Either way, thanks for the warning.
    Oh and well done for being the “Destroyer of the world” do you get a badge with that??

  • Paul Julian Gould

    There’s a whole subset of folks among the Charismatics, with quite a few adherents, based on the Peretti-esque view of “spiritual warfare.” Rather interesting study of human behavior watching such a session, complete with loud weeping, ecstatic utterances (so-called “tongues,”) and hands reaching up and yanking down as though to be pulling a tarp off a rowboat (“pulling down strongholds,” in that peculiar parlance). There’s the inevitable shadow boxing, imprecatory prayers, Bible verses ripped out of context, as, since the words exist between the leather covers somewhere, it’s all part of the stew.

    (as an aside, the ridiculousness of much of the “teachings” can be answered by the fact that “there is no God” really is present in the Psalms… of course, leaving off the “The fool has said in his heart” kinda changes the meaning a bit, but that sort of thing is part and parcel of much of the weird wing of the charismatic crew.

    I was a member of Liberty Church in Birmingham, AL for quite a few years, and… oh, yeah… being in the worship band up on the stage was an interesting vantage point.

  • M.A.N.

    I had not really paid attention to Charisma News (read an article here or there) until they posted that article calling for genocide against Muslims. I probably shouldn’t have been but I was shocked (and horrified). Even a conservative, fundamentalist relative of mine (who does not like Muslims) was shocked that a “Christian” would write that and a “Christian” website would publish that. I have been avoiding the site since that, it makes me feel sad that people who claim the name of Christ would support that.

    I had not realized that they were deliberately distorting the truth and slandering, for that’s just another reason to avoid them.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    I also have to add that it was weird to have a senior pastor given to quoting Limbaugh from the pulpit… most congregations of that sort across the country seem to have that as buried in the fine-print of the by-laws, I think.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    I, as well, Cat…Once in a great while, I wander over to the various Toontown-like places, if there’s something in an email that I have to see to believe, but usually immediately thereafter, I find saner places to be. With certain aspects of my internal wiring, that’s no doubt the safer course of action.

    One and only one other blog am I registered under another nick, though, as this one, as well as being my full legal name, has gotten me followed by some strange characters. Therefore, as the other is sort of home for me, having been there since they began more than a decade ago, I use the original account I registered with back in the day. Not that it’s a big secret, but it tends to keep the two separate…

    I’ve commented once and only once on a weird, super-rightwing site, only to remark to the commenters that their mothers must be so proud of their behavior and never went back. Crazy people (as to be differentiated from people like myself who are merely mentally ill… *chuckle*) may be entertaining in small doses, but living with circus clowns and birthday cake would get old if engaged on a daily basis, I think.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Indeed the right circles, Dave… consider yourself quite fortunate and blessed on that account… *grin*

    There are enough of us who lived through the “happy-talk” phase of the movement, and still hung in after it just got fearful, pissed off and deranged, and who have lived to tell the tale. Be happy and be blessed that there are none within your particular circle of life.

  • $136305622

    I was drawn to charisma for a while because I just thought there needed to be some positive Christian messages in the comments section there. I was promptly banned! It was amazing actually – the comments I received to my comments which were just questioning the motivation of their anti-gay and anti-muslim hatred were insanely disgusting (go to hell, i’m a horrible f***ot, etc.). Those people were not banned. That right there tells you what kind of Christianity they are advocating. Which is nothing like I had ever learned in growing up Christian.
    Excellent article here – we can do ourselves a favor by avoiding their hate.

  • $136305622

    It is inconceivable for the Charisma readers and contributors to imagine a person being nice to glbt causes without being glbt themselves. It is such a weird mindset!

  • Wow! It seems like Charisma has gotten even worse. Even though I was Pentecostal from 1970 to the 1990s, I never liked Charisma Magazine.

  • Guy Norred

    Absolutely! All of the above and BIG TIME on number 4, or 1, or 2–oh well. I resolve to stay away.

  • Noah

    Here’s a great one from Ken Ham:

    “Should You Fear an Asteroid Apocalypse?”

    He basically says no, because it’s in God’s hands. I guess I don’t need to worry about eating healthy or wearing a seatbelt then.

  • Shaun Lockett

    I was given an issue in 1992, and its tone was hysterical and condescending then, so I never read another. It sounds worse, and that’s saying something.

  • peterhamm

    They lost their right to be taken seriously a while ago.

    But I have folks still link to articles… it may as well be satire.

  • An adrenalized rush & living in reactivity is the addicts way. The strongholds can be recognized but addicts almost never change until their ‘supply’ stops working for them and/or they hit bottom. Meanwhile the rest of us are taken hostage. Will the insanity lead to the use of nukes on our ‘ enemies’ in the middle east?

  • Herm

    Okay, I’ve horribly failed the litmus test for divine perfection right there in 2 Timothy 2:23. Thanks a lot, just when I thought I was getting my façade and act together.

    Can I make amends and get back in the good graces of my siblings by sharing some Great News? This is not just the warm and fuzzy Good News (Gospel) Jesus told us to share. This is news way beyond such old fashion ideology that just couldn’t ever be applied by human beings today so well as it could then. You still have the choice to hate or love your enemy, neighbor, self or Lord God. The only responsibility you have to your choice is the result from your choice.

    Yup, you hear me, we are free to be independent from having to make any attempt to listen to the Holy Spirit in our hearts and minds as to what is the Father’s will. We are free to go out in the world as totally independent adults to earn, hoard and defend all we want wholly responsible for all we do. Isn’t this Great News because we are finally free from those pesky, get in the way, family dictated responsibilities of our youth and now we can be the god of ourselves. We are not dependent upon the knowledge of God because we have our own and it’s decidedly better in my judgment. We can go out and destroy evil right where it stands before it comes home to roost. We know what evil is by how it contrasts with what we want, right?

    Great News: God so loved the world that He gave us his only Son that we may have something to decide by and choose to believe in Him or us. We are totally free to attempt to earn our eternal life on our own by subjugation and genocide of all who insist on being feared and hated as different from us and still claim humanity the same as us. Free, free at last to hate, fear and destroy to our hearts content because we know better than God. We know that if those others just hadn’t been born we wouldn’t have all these so sad decisions to make, it is their fault. Even Greater News, we’re free to use God’s name just like it is our own. We can choose to make the best of being in God’s image and never have to become an incompetent child, again. This makes me feel so much better. Since I don’t know from whence comes the wind I don’t have to pay any attention to it speaking in my heart and mind a law that is not of my doing.

    Great News: FEAR because we have the choice without the need for parental guidance or family protection! Fear is only natural to point our senses to what we have to destroy to no longer fear. We did not fear invasion as children because we could trust our parents to keep such evil at bay. Now we can use fear to keep our enemy at bay.

    Who needs a shepherd anyway when they have us!!! Let me fear evil so in all my brilliance, wisdom and presence I can be the adult on this Earth and destroy it, once and for all surviving.

    The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures; he leads me beside still waters; he restores my soul. He leads me in right paths for his name’s sake. Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I fear no evil; for you are with me; your rod and your staff— they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD my whole life long. Psalm 23:1-6

    I do not read nor rebut Charisma News so I depend on people like you, Ben, to tell me what I’m missing. Thank you! To risk being snarky, I’ll wait until the movie comes out! Love you! Truly, PEACE!

  • Herm

    Kinda’ like a HELL to be avoided???

  • Herm

    You’re kidding me!!! :-)

  • Chris Esparza

    Love your enemies. <3 :D

  • Personally I prefer Christians like Ms. Vicari and the rest of Charisma who are open and unapologetic about their hatred of the other. They’re easier to deal with than the majority who try to swaddle that same hatred in a soft blanket of Christian Love.

  • w respect, IA, what do you mean?

  • Timothy Weston

    I spent a good portion of the past year keeping track of their content and it is nauseating. At times, I wonder if “spirit-filled” was a euphemism for “mentally ill” based on comments from their reader base. The tenor I received from reading the content was that they think they are the gatekeepers of Christianity. I have seen them and their reader base define what constitutes a Christian by exclusion.

    I look forward to their response to this article.

  • Timothy Hawk

    Thanks for this post/warning. I have never been to their website, and now I know I don’t need to waste my time!

  • Paul Julian Gould

    I know the sort of people… just not being openly and vocally averse to LGBT people, regardless of degree of sexual activity, is enough to be on their lists of suspicious people.

    Those of us who once walked among the charismaniacs, turned our backs, and supported equal rights for all even while among them have just flat-out lost our salvation, according to their lights, assuming they’re gracious enough at all to grant that we once were nice spiritual folks who were heaven-bound, also according to their lights.

    Another thing about which I’m delighted is neither their business nor their decision. There’s a list of those things I seem to have accumulated.

  • otrotierra

    The steady stream of evangelical hatred you describe is also common on the RedLetterChristians comments section. For some reason the moderators tolerate US evangelicals who enjoy damning others to eternal torment. Really happy that Benjamin doesn’t feel obligated to allow hate-filled evangelical trolls to derail his blog.

  • Jim Braman

    Herm, I have enjoyed your previous postings, and respect your talent as a Christian writer. Today, again you make some great points, but permit me, if you will, to comment about your tone (and the tone of Ben’s article).

    I don’t want to see this great page lower itself by making fun of fear while trying to teach compassion. Could it be that our own fear of groups like these becoming more numerous is causing a counter-offensive approach? Sorry to be blunt, and I could be wrong, but all these logical arguments read more like a judgment than a call for reason.

    Remember Isaiah? When God points out all the sin of the Israelite’s? He says, “Come let us reason together”.

    There is a time for judgment, and maybe God is calling for that, but it seems odd that an article about compassion for enemies would also take on a tone of judgment. This is not a private forum, and the comments will (and have begun already) to sound more like a Facebook page than Christians reasoning together ….where people of opposing views and spirit go back and forth defending their opinions with ever-increasing emotion, sarcasm, and disrespect, trying to ‘win’ the argument.

    Yes, it’s a difficult choice NOT include excluders, and absorb the fears of the fearful, but in my opinion that is the power and Spirit of Jesus, and that is the beauty of OUR freedom and OUR choice.

    God bless us, everyone…

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Apparently you’ve not read any of my other comments… I make no claim to being what a modern-day Christian would consider in the fold, and haven’t considered the Bible the “sole rule and guide of my faith” in decades.

    Now, that may make me a “hellbound sinner” in your eyes, but fortunately, neither you nor anyone else gets to make that decision. Not everyone who comments on Ben’s blog fits a label of either “Christian” or atheist… and an appeal to me as a “Bible believer” is rather lost… Not that I don’t know the Book and know it well.

  • Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid

    Some of the comments by “believers” on that site are beyond words horrible.

  • Herm

    Thank you Jim for your very considered response. I need just your kind of reflection to stay involved and remain bold. Our Lord has made me know how secure I am in our relationship and I have a tendency to be childish when I feel like yelling (to shake those I truly do love and can feel their pain), “WAKE UP we can’t earn anything but the adoration of God ’cause we already have Their love”. Hearing how you perceived my comment as coming off negatively edgy will serve to bring my efforts back to a more constructive presentation. In the body of Man we depend upon each others’ empathy and compassion for the necessary checks and balances to be supportive of each other. Your observations and sharing are in that spirit. In Spirit of the Family of God I am beginning to understand the source of God’s wrath and know I am too young to wield the whip to clear my Father’s house.

    I am only just beginning to understand Ben’s strength of character to boldly go where no man has gone before. I believe his admonition in this article, addressed clearly to his loyal audience here, reflects more courage and love for ALL than will be understood by those drawn, by the title, who will react in fighting mode from their ingrained reaction to criticism.

    Sometimes I wish Jesus didn’t give me such freedom to be the child that I am on this public playground. I find myself in a conundrum when the overpowering physical fighters, and those belittling others, abuse the intent of my Father’s, in Christ’s name, “Good News” by excluding and isolating through the spirit of fear and hate. I love the haters and those who fear more than myself, truly, but I don’t know how to break down the wall they are suffocating behind while sucking others into their ignorant plight. I am not Ben and am clearly eons away from the loving effectiveness of Jesus because I tend to childishly react in my mortally trained triage mode of rushing in to protect those I believe with the most potential of surviving first.

    The good news is that I am actively being coached to be more lovingly productive in reactive responder mode every day. I am a bit more hurried everyday as each is one less opportunity on this Earth to share the Gospel I know personally and so many clearly do not. I can absorb the the fear of the fearful but only when I am facing head on the source of that fear. I can ask my Father to forgive those who know not what they do. Without stimulating an opening to begin to reason together with those who promote fear and hate I will never serve to help them find the Good News they are ignorant of. The cross is easy on the last steps to the top of the hill but is most difficult when the ones I would die for are oblivious to the fact I am even carrying a cross for the love of them.

    I have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain in planting seeds in the hearts and minds of the calloused that an eternal relationship with God might sprout. I have lost in my effort to love my enemy when I permanently isolate myself from them by excluding them. Tickling their ire, causing them to yell at me, is one way to breakdown the soundproofed walls of exclusion. My response when yelled at needs to be in the inclusive love I trust and not the put offish sarcasm of belittling.

    You have served to help Jim, thank you, again and always! Love you!

  • Paul Julian Gould

    The writings of Sha’ul of Tarsus are, to me, exactly that… Personal and pastoral letters, but the Word of God? Elevates a 1st Century CE Hellenistic Jew more than I’d care to presume, however fine the grain of leather containing those words.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    I’ve been on the Ark so loudly advertised by Evangelical Protestant believers… I lived aboard that ship for more than a decade, and found it leaking badly, so I bailed ship and jumped overboard, only to be surprised how well I’m able to swim.

  • Herm

    … with the support of a cross made just for you and VeteranOF911 to float on when finally exhausted.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Pretty much, friend Herm… What my faith truly is, I think would pleasantly surprise many here, but I’ve eschewed focusing on terminology. That which really matters doesn’t need a book that few who venerate it actually study, nor does It need defense nor dogmatism… Rather, we’re really on the same side, if sides there be, and just hashing it out over interpretation.

    The attitude of “it just is,” or rather that cheesy bumper-sticker platitude, “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” may suffice for a 5-year old, but some folks deeply and abjectly fear nuance. As there are always 2 sides to every divorce, I understand my ex’s reason for divorcing me (she was and is an intelligent woman who nonetheless was and is as hyper-conservative, Evangelical Protestant charismatic as any on Charisma News) – I was living with undiagnosed Major Depressive Disorder as well as PDD-NOS (highest functioning on the autistic spectrum). I’m not easy to live with, although life is extremely good now… Accurate diagnosis and treatment, and a wonderful woman who’s been a best friend for 36 years, and has been my lovely wife for 3 1/2 years…. The autumn of life is truly grand.

  • Mr. G.

    The comment by the moderator who banned me from Charisma for daring to state that the Bible is not “God’s Word” as well as citing examples from the text illustrating mutually exclusive / self-contradicting statements as well as those things that are simply not possible in this universe was, “We are not going to provide a forum for that.”

  • Herm

    There’s some good news I can share with you now that you’ve got your feet wet. The wood of the ark was replaced by the tree of life. The fold now available is through baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Family of God as a little child. The church in the spirit of self imposed laws, dogmas and theology died with Jesus as the curtain was rent. The church of Jesus is alive and well as founded upon the rock of the Spirit of Truth. Seek, ask and knock directly from the reigning High Priest and Lord Jesus. Then you can fully love the Lord your God, your neighbor, yourself and your enemy. The merciful neighbor you have been enjoined to love as yourself (part of inheriting eternal life) could easily be a homosexual, Hispanic, Muslim woman. Leave the judging up to Jesus and free yourself up to love in His name!!! Love you!

  • Paul Julian Gould

    … also, getting away from the fear that somehow God won’t like me if I get some of the details wrong kinda helped… a pity that too many base their faith, whether they know it or not, on exactly that.

  • Mr. G.

    “demonic” is another favorite characterization of theirs – adj. anything that disagrees with me”

  • Herm

    The only law that really counts without end is written in each of our hearts and minds and needs no interpretation, only a relationship with the Counselor! Love you and yes the autumn of life is truly grand when allowed to be free, at peace and joyful as a little child protected and nourished by our Big Brother and Father.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Love you too, bro… I would, no doubt, use different phraseology and maybe even different names (as said in the Vedas, “Truth is One; the sages call It by many Names”), but that which is infinite can’t be comprehended by the finite, and it’s a sad fool who thinks s/he’s got it all figured out.

    The comfort, protection, joy and peace have come from that Source, I’m certain, and, if nothing else, for the reason of, at nearly 60, I kinda needed a breather… Close friends and confidants have told me I should write a book… my life, while not at Forrest Gump level, looking back, would probably have to be marketed as fiction, ’cause few who don’t know me very well would believe it. *weary smile*

  • Herm

    Well, good news, God provides all the forums we need and will direct us to them as we are ready. But, then, you already know that. Not the self anointed church nor the Bible can provide a forum for the Spirit to speak, only our open childish hearts and minds can. To exclude any sincere heart and mind from my forum is not in my control when Jesus is my Lord and remains the High Priest for His church; with the Holy Spirit as the rock His church is built on.

    Do you have any ideas how we might reach those ignorant of this good news, which we know that once in the Spirit becomes clearly chronicled and attested to in the Bible?

    Love you Mr. G., thank you! You are always welcome to share in my heart and mind!

  • Mr. G.

    Thank you, Herm. A frequent caution of mine is to beware letting mere words that you understand as agreeing with what you think you KNOW ABOUT God obscure the more precious opportunity to directly experience (KNOW) God.

  • Herm

    I keep a copies of the Vedas, the Koran and the Christian Bible for inspired reading offline. I am seventy and the weariness does set in more every month. I am called before I end to volunteer the Good news as I now know it to be personally true. The Spirit of the Source is available to everyone in the vernacular and language of meaning exactly where they are at. I could easily write a book for I have been graced more than enough material upon reflection. There are millions of books from sincere experiences of human life but I know of only one Spirit of God who can interpret the value and significance of each. Since the advent of the Internet I am satisfied to plant seeds as a lay purveyor of comments and responses. God blesses you and promises at least one more barrel laugh to replace that weary smile!

  • Paul Julian Gould

    And some in many circles take that further to focusing on the faith OF Y’shua, rather than a religion ABOUT Him.

  • Mr. G.

    Amen. Perhaps to say something like, “Know God as Jesus does”?

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Indeed… When the time comes for me to stand before my Creator and give account, I think that, whatever experiences, mistakes and events, I will be content if I’m blessed enough to have said of me that I tried my best to do good, and that I also tried my best to love as I’ve been loved. I don’t think what books I used for food and inspiration, nor what proper nouns and adjectives I used to describe my faith will even enter into the conversation. There is no fear, if one is willing to fear not… God doesn’t give us fear; rather we impose it upon ourselves, and despair that we can’t eradicate it. I find it extremely unfortunate that translators chose to use “fear” in translating proverbial wisdom. It is not being afraid of God that is the beginning of wisdom, but rather that bottomless awe, adoration and profound respect, but I suppose they used the word as shorthand.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    And, yes… I consider myself deeply and profoundly blessed that I’ve been graced with the ability of a deep belly laugh, if only at my own expense. I’ve been accused of flippancy by some, yet what I do take absolutely seriously, is neither fodder for a joke, nor can it really be put into words, however verbose and pedantic I choose to be… *chuckle*

  • Paul Julian Gould

    That works… My own personal paradigm welcomes also the God-knowledge of wise people who also didn’t live in the Negev… yet amplify or explain further a picture I’ve already been blessed with… *smile*

  • Paul Julian Gould

    See… THAT’s why I keep hanging around you old farts, half-decade to decade older than I… Makes me younger by comparison… Only problem, is the pool’s drying up, as everyone keeps going for that Rainbow Bridge…
    {*teasing, grinning and ducking*}

  • Guy Norred

    Just this last week I suddenly found myself questioning the theology behind “‘Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear”. The rest I can follow, even the wretch part if I see it as an understanding of a state of existence and not an inherent trait, but that just seems wrong.

  • Read Romans 2 and you’ll understand what Romans 1 actually means.

  • Otro, I really just don’t think there are moderators on RLC. Seriously. The only “moderation” that happens there is totally automated. And that’s a major reason why I stopped commenting over there.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Large swaths of the Church corporate have, over the millenia, seemed to have adopted what’s a valid practice in Basic Combat Training… break you down to ground level to build you up a soldier… Works for the military; for matters of the spirit, to me, maybe not so much…

    How’s about not beginning with “oh, what a wretched man I am” and getting up to ground level to begin living… How’s about starting at whatever level one’s at and building from there? Granted, in terms of eternity, it’s maybe not so much, but seems to me rather a time-saver… *smile*

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Yeah, but I see you all over the more respectable nodes of the Disqusphere, Snommelp… I’m watching you…

    {*teasing*}

  • Scott_In_OH

    A common example (albeit one becoming less common) is the Christian who claims to love a person who has come out as gay but who nonetheless talks about hoping the gay person will see the light–i.e., become un-gay or at least never have a romantic relationship. That’s not actually loving.

    (Note that I’m not pretending to speak for Irish Atheist.)

  • Jude 1:7? Jude 1:7 has absolutely nothing to do with it. And your reading of Romans 1-2 is at odds with what Paul himself says. Go back and read 2:1 again, then get back to me. And read up on what the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel say was the sin of Sodom, while you’re at it.

    EDIT: I gotta say, it always amazes me when people act like nobody else has every heard these verses before. This has been a debate for how long, and you think that Romans 1 is new information?

  • Scott_In_OH

    I don’t know what “support homosexuality” means.

  • otrotierra

    Snommelp, RedLetterChristians has only become worse since you stopped posting there. I wish folks like you and Paul Julian Gould would be welcomed there, not turned off by the hate-filled evangelical trolling.

    RedLetterChristians needs to know that their refusal to moderate the comments section is actively driving people away.

  • I’m being watched? Crapbaskets…

    :-P

  • otrotierra

    Herm, always love your posts. We could really use you over at the RedLetterChristians comment section. Feel free to drop by anytime!

  • Guy Norred

    I don’t mean I am all on board with the wretch thing either, but when the spirit is already broken….well basically I am saying I agree with your point about starting wherever you are.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    I’ve never been there, and really don’t intend to make a visit… just not my kind of thing.

    I visit a few blogs here on Patheos (which to me is the greatest thing since sliced bread, with my personal interest being to the degree that Yahoo is populated with, well… yahoos…). Among those I frequent are evangelical in viewpoint, and, while not necessarily liberal or progressive, have as owners those who are at least kind, decent people, trying to worship God with all their might and understanding. Pointless to argue specifics, as it’d really just boil down to idiotically arguing over individual facets of a diamond.

    I see enough angry, crazy fools elsewhere, for whom Disqus really is the best thing since sliced bread…. A whole universe of playgrounds to vandalize! What fun! (I, obviously, despise whatever bad things inspire people to troll, while not despising the people themselves, however vile they act.)

  • Paul Julian Gould

    We never know (probably for very good reason *gentle smile*) most of the lives we’ve touched, and won’t know this side of the bridge…

    FWIW, better me than some very strange characters that have at times somehow decided to follow me… *grin*

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Just wanted to pop back in and tell you how deeply I’ve enjoyed and appreciated our conversation this morning.

    While it may not mean much to anyone else, I woke up to one of our dear parakeets lying on the floor of her cage. She was an old lady, but the only one of the three that would at least greet me. Funerals for any of God’s creatures are difficult at best, however simple the act. A small hole in the back with other of our non-human friends who’ve gone beyond (we’re critter critters, and some lifeforms tend to have great quality of life while not being blessed with quantity), a blessing, and a wish to have her greet me when it’s my time to cross the same bridge.

    I needed an ecouraging, gentle and loving conversation to shake the blues off. That the vocabulary you use is unabashedly Christian in flavor, and that I might choose other synonyms is beside the point, altogether, I think…

    Just thank you, new friend. You’ve brightened my day.

  • And here I always that they were “Crabpaskets”. Beware…!

  • Paul Julian Gould

    We agree, friend… I was just discussing, not disputing… I get really wordy sometimes, and tend inflict my verbosity and pedantry on the unsuspecting at the oddest times… *grin* At least, I’m pretty sure it comes off that way sometimes.

  • Guy Norred

    Can be that way myself–and when I am tired, as I am realizing I am right now, I can be pretty dense

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Nope… you’re coming across just fine, Guy…

    Me? Kind of a weird day (per my comment to Herm elsewhere on the thread), and being whom and what I am, I express myself better with a computer keyboard, (aside from a sax, a guitar or other, which works well, offline) than I’m able to verbally… I get tongue-tied due to a strange obsession with being perfectly understood… stupid, I know, but it is as it is. And behind a keyboard, I can be exactly whom I am, present myself as I am, and type the way I think.

    You’re not dense, Guy… you strike me as a pretty astute, open-minded sort of person. Glad to have met you.

  • Agreed completely. I’ve stumbled onto the Charisma site a couple of times; as a gay Christian I’m considered anathema, and even though I’ve only commented a few times (<20?), a few of the readers/comments have labelled me a troll and a spammer just for expressing a thought-out opinion. What is unfortunate, though, is that they do have a lot of readers, and they function to establish a repeating cycle of fear and exclusion that traps immature believers.

  • Herm

    VeteranOF911, Paul is no better a servant of Jesus than you or I if you have the Holy Spirit working in your heart and mind as a little child of God. The Christian Bible is not the Word of God, Jesus is and is alive to prove that to you, as is attested to in the Bible.

    It is true that in the “Old Testament” homosexuality is written to be an abomination as is arrogance. The only scripture Paul, as a high and authoritative scholar, subscribed to was our Old Testament. It was by that Testament that Paul murdered Christians until struck blind by the Holy Spirit.

    You must, if a student of the Rabbi Jesus, follow Jesus’ command and not Paul’s should there be any confusion or conflict.

    Luke 14:26, 27; Luke 10:27; Matthew 7:12; Matthew 28:18-20

    Jesus said, “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned”.

    Jesus, also, clearly said, “”You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in you.”

    Why do you persist on condemning another who is merciful to you? You are clearly founding your condemnation on how other teachers of the law are teaching you. They are your rock and not the Holy Spirit who is the rock Jesus’ church is built on.

    How will you feel when you find before Jesus that man to man attraction and woman to woman attraction is a natural biological condition and not in any way a spiritual condition to be judged by Jesus? Don’t you think it is time for you to die to the flesh and live in the Spirit?

    I testify before you that once baptized into the Spirit of Truth, much different than baptism by sprinkling and immersion, you will learn the errors of your ways as Paul was in the midst of learning his, as verified by his letters to others, taught directly by the Word, the Teacher.

    Bless you for interjecting with what you feel is righteous love for others and risking yourself to be vulnerable to the judgment of others. We are only called to make students of Christ Jesus and not in any way to make students for ourselves. We can teach His commands by living them. You are not living His commands by hating merciful homosexuals nor judging what is between another and Jesus directly. We will know you by your fruits.

    Love you!

    Yours truly, a Veteran of Vietnam where over 50k of my brethren were sacrificed by my nation for our greed and arrogance.

  • Herm

    Thank you very much otrotierra. I am really, really flattered and humbled. I will ask if that is a good comment section to attend. It seems appropriate as that is the section of the Bible I quote the most. Thank you, again. Love you!

  • Paul Julian Gould

    As trite a sentiment as it’s become, truly thanks for being there from a fellow vet – Vietnam-era, 74-82, Air Defense Artillery, 32nd AADCOM, Germany.

    An old, grizzled retired E-7 it was my honor to know, was, as you, a veteran of hot combat in the jungle…

    Phil’s statement of “shitty war, good soldier” is about all that can be said.

  • Herm

    Paul, you brighten my day often, thank you.

    Grief is one of the greatest gifts I’ve been gifted. It allows me to carry relations now finalized and continue to give them value. You reminded me of a parakeet I too lost and in my heart and mind can live on with me. God raised me to where I could fully grieve the loss of my family, job and church at age 50. I had not been able to feel that deeply when as a child of Man. I had been allowed since 50 to understand how infinitely more deeply God feels as their child. It helps and it is good.

    Love you and look forward to many more conversations hopefully extending through the end of eternity. I’ll let Jesus be the judge of that while I appreciate the abundance I already have! Thank you for sharing, always!

  • R. S. Simmons

    Thank you for this article. I hope those who have ears to hear, listen.

  • Bill

    That sounds like the Church I used to attend. Now too much kookyness makes me run the other way. Fast

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Rafael Cruz, Sr. (Ted’s dad) is an enthusiastic practitioner of the stuff, as is Sarah Palin, along with the rest of her church up in Alaska… (anyone remember the exorcism and blessing event of not that many years ago?)

    Sitting in one of those meetings, I admit it’s pretty easy to get caught up in all the emotionalism, but lots of folks allow themselves to abandon everything and enter into some willing suggestibility… Not beyond imagination that the motivation behind the organizers is to wind up the bots and send ’em out… all in the joy and with the love of the Lord, of course.

  • good example! preshate it.

  • Wolf

    Jesus is God’s Word. The Bible is paper and ink.

  • Herm

    There is no marriage in Heaven. This is God breathed scripture and yet you find error!

  • Why, yes. I do.

  • Not only will I co-sign that comment, I’m going to make a MEME out of it too. Thanks for the idea!

  • Mr. G.

    While I can appreciate that the Bible may serve that purpose for you, I reject any notion assuming that as universally applicable to all. For one thing, that is not true for all. For another, I do not see any reason to limit the avenues by which God’s Word can come to us.

  • otrotierra

    Absolutely! Only Jesus is literally The Word. The bible is a collection of sentences printed on paper.

  • Mr. G.

    “is actively driving people away” – what would you expect when your 1st intention is to exclude?

  • otrotierra

    In the case of RedLetterChristians, I don’t believe Dr. Tony Campolo and his friends intend to drive Jesus-followers away. They just won’t step up to appoint a moderator to weed out frothing-at-the-mouth evangelicals who derail practically every post with their streams of hatred and condemnation. Anyway, we need more level-headed, biblically literate commenters in the comments section. Feel free to drop by anytime.

  • otrotierra

    Herm, RedLetterChristians is affiliated with Dr. Tony Campolo. He’s done some great work, and at least they try to include a range of voices and perspectives. Yesterday they ran an excerpt from Black literation theologian Dr, Cornel West. So, they’re fighting the good fight, and it would be great if you could join us from time to time!

  • Mr. G.

    I’m not immediately familiar with this RedLetterChristians that you mention, but I might not mind dropping by. The approach I most often favor goes something like, after they’ve told me that I’m going to hell and tossed a few proof texts at me is to say something like, “Although I hear you saying you believe that, it doesn’t resonate with me – do you have something more experiential to offer?” Then after they tell me how I’m not in touch with the Holy Spirit, we can perhaps engage.

  • Terri Knoll

    most of the time, they border on blasphemy.

  • Terri Knoll

    I haven’t been banned yet. I am banned from the Christians United for Israel’s page, so it prolly won’t be long before I am banned from Charisma

  • Names_Stan

    As an Episcopalian I had to click through to the Rachel Held Evans article when a friend posted it on Facebook. It was my first introduction to the place, but enough of one to know you’re exactly right in your analysis.

    However, I’m a bit cynical as to whether they care what their impact is in regard to Christian reputation. My guess is this: Much like the political media whose market share comes from stoking paranoia and an Us-vs-Them mindset, the Charisma folks are simply following a business plan.

    They realize there is a large demographic who need their daily dose of “Muslim Obama Turning America Gay”. Why not capture those same folks by stoking their paranoia in terms of religion too, and get a piece of that action?

  • I’m afraid it’s not quite that simple, Scott. Sure, there are plenty of traditional Christians who have no idea what it is they’re asking of gay people. For some, that’s because of a very real homophobia in their hearts, and they don’t very well care about the gay person they’re talking to (at). But often it’s simply an ignorance that stems from a hetero-privilege that they don’t even realize they have.

    But as Christians, we believe that Jesus told us all to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and follow him, right (assuming that you’re coming from a Christian perspective)? And if the traditional sex ethic is right, then part of taking up one’s cross, as a gay person, is not pursuing a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex.

    While the example you give is often concealed hatred, or at least concealed indifference, it isn’t inherently so.

  • Mr. G.

    According to many of their regular posters, you don’t exist – “no such thing as a gay Christian”

  • DrewTwoFish

    Um, what if one is intersexed? Who can they partner with to avoid “sinning”?

  • Hate by default?

  • Paul Julian Gould

    My very anglo, very TeaParty, very Church of God Evangelical landlords are enthusiastic supporters of that organization…

    It’s a testament to my self-control that I’ve avoided over the years, asking them to follow through the logic, “So all the Jews need to crowd into the political entity of Israel so the majority of them can be wiped out when your Lord returns?”

  • Herm

    Why would a heterosexual disciple of Christ have any reason to admonish a homosexual disciple of Christ as to exactly how to carry their gay cross when they’re already preoccupied with their straight cross and all the while Jesus is readily available to each individually to teach? Which of Jesus’ commands that we’re enjoined to teach does this lesson fall under? If there are none then why can’t we leave the rest of the teaching up to the Rabbi? Inquiring hearts and minds want to know the answers to these questions.

    Love you!

  • Hi Herm,

    We’re all supposed to be admonishing each other, aren’t we? But in the context of relationships. And in gentleness and humility, rather than the spiritual bullying that so often takes place. And it isn’t supposed to be one-sided. Sadly, that’s rarely the case when it comes to gay Christians. But It doesn’t stand to reason that a Christian can only admonish another if he has the exact same cross to bear. I suppose Paul is a good example of a (presumably) straight Christian admonishing the gay Christian to take up his cross.

    As far as Jesus’ teaching, he did in fact reinforce the understood definition of marriage as a union between one man and one woman. The fact that he didn’t mention homosexuality doesn’t help your case, because the traditional sex ethic was already understood to be right. So if Jesus was wanting to change the attitude about monogamous same-sex unions, he would actually have to mention it. That’s what he did with nonviolence, divorce, etc.

    For what it’s worth, I’m not a straight Christian, and I don’t admonish other gay Christians on *exactly* how to take up their cross. That looks different for each person. In fact, I don’t spend much time at all telling any gay person what they’re supposed be doing. (Some would consider that a fault of mine, actually.) And this is a really complex and difficult road to traverse. I certainly understand how a gay person (or a compassionate straight person) could end up on a different side of this issue than I’m on. The conservative church sure hasn’t made it any easier.

  • Hi Charles,

    Could you elaborate a bit?

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    My very gay, very evangelical friend always gets a chuckle out of that… and then reminds me that no-one gets to say who’s allowed to be a follower of Christ and who isn’t.

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    They’re gatekeepers. I’m not sure what they’re guarding is of any value whatsoever.

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    No, but there’s a small testimonial dinner and a certificate suitable for framing.

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    It’s always the polite, thoughtful, self-effacing ones. No-one ever suspects them.

  • The privilege to hate?

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    Some of my gay friends tell me it has to do with helping them co-ordinate their wardrobes. I THINK they’re kidding…

  • Paul Julian Gould

    It’s much akin to modern-day politics… Those who loudly tout themselves as “conservative” to any and all within earshot really don’t have any understanding of what it is they intend to conserve.

    Not to be confused with those who fully understand the meaning of the term, and find no need to wear the identity on their sleeves…

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    Somewhat similar experience here, though what I found was that the water wasn’t actually all that deep. *grins*

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Shhh… trying to make everyone believe I’m an Olympic gold medal swimmer… appearances are everything, and no one needs to know I could walk the distance… *grinning back atcha*

  • Lets substitute the word ‘inherant’ for the word default. like it is understood if one is fr a culture or a region, a class, an age group, is considered elite, educated/not educated etc., that by an inherant status quo applying a ridgid standard of acceptiblity/nonacceptability to ppl, places & things what is actually being served is an ice cold platter of HATE!

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Ah, but more than that, no one expects the Spanish Inqui…

    Wait… what?

  • OK. Let me make sure that I understand, as clearly as I can, where you’re coming from.

    You believe that upholding the traditional view, that same-sex romantic and sexual relationships are contrary to God’s design for humanity, is, by default, hateful. And that’s because it holds gay people to a different standard than everybody else, requiring them to deny a part of themselves that other (straight) people aren’t. Is that a fair and relatively complete assessment of your position?

  • oh god no! I meant that exclusion is hateful and a ‘default’ position inherent & upheld in institutions/traditions that assume the privilege of exclusion on the basis of belief in their righteousness, elitism, power and control. I have felt this atmosphere of being evicted where ever I go bc me and my spouce have been at times in our 38+ years together severly mentally ill. Geez! Offending you was the last thing in the world I wanted to do!

  • I wasn’t implying that you were offending me. I just want to make sure I really understand where you’re coming from before I reply further.

  • I’ve been on the victim side of this equasion all my life & am just processing my pain from it, getting free to enjoy what is left of my time here.

  • Yeah, I get that. I’ve done enough pain-processing to recognize it in your responses. And I get why my position would bring up some of that. I’ve spent a bit of time on the victim side of this too, you see.

    But I don’t think there actually has to be a victim in the equation at all. I don’t feel like a victim because I can’t pursue a relationship with a man. I do feel victimized when I’m treated like some sort of subhuman or am reduced to a handful of stereotypes. And while traditional Christians have at times treated me in a pretty reprehensible way, others have also done exactly the opposite. Not all that long ago, I spent day after day talking with some of my close friends, railing against everything they believed, all of my pain and anger spilling out all over the place. And they were all unrelenting in their kindness and patience with me. Never did they try to shut me down or try to scare me with the judgment of God, or threaten to abandon me for my own good. They were like Jesus to me.

    I’m sure that our different experiences have a lot to do with how we see this whole thing. And far too many people have only the negative experiences that I’m sure we both share. And that grieves me to no end.

  • Yeah it’s a bitch! I’m in a much better space in my head bc i’m to the place in my recovery where I don’t let other ppl define me. I’m pretty good at discerning who is safe for me to with, disclose with. I used to be inappropriate w ppl wearing my heart on my sleeve. I used to live in constant adrenalized reactivity. Not so much any more. I’m in a 12 step program for my recovery fr multiple additions & my higher power is a loving god that even helps me love my ememies! Any way it’s great to talk w you. Here in oregon it’s 1 am. What time is it where you are? You are in china amirite?

  • Mr. G.

    Which, if my experience is any indication, occasionally results in even more ridiculous claims by those who are more inclined to exclude rather than include – odd if one perceives Jesus as radically inclusive.

  • Well damn, looks like I don’t support homosexuality as much as I thought I did, then… I’m terrible with clothes. If it hadn’t been for the guidance of my sisters I’d still be wearing oversized t-shirts every day.

  • John 1:14 reads “And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.”

    The Bible testifies to the fact that Jesus is the Word, not the Bible. Therefore all who would say that the Bible is inerrant must hold on to this simple truth, that Jesus is the Word; Jesus, and none other.

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    I thought T-shirts were the Straight White Male’s default clothing choice?

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    That’s one of the things that drove me away screaming from that particular set of beliefs. I was told, ‘Yes, we welcome you – or we will once you change this list of things about yourself. Pay special attention to the notes on page five.’ I may not have paid the closest attention in confirmation class (I was brought up High Anglican) but I’m pretty sure that none of that is anywhere in the NT. Maybe towards the back?

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    Do I have to deploy the soft cushions? Do I?

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    So what you’re saying is you DON’T want to borrow my water wings?

  • Mr. G.

    I continue to tell some folks, “If the day ever comes where someone with sufficient say-so tells me that I have to act like you and believe what you believe to be a Christian, I’ll stop being a Christian,”

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    I wonder at times if being ignorant about what they’re guarding or conserving isn’t necessary for them. It’s very empowering to be scaring away the Visigoths, but perhaps less so if you know that the generals are stealing your stuff while you’re on duty… or that you’ve been sent off to guard nothing at all…

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    Doesn’t seem like something worth guarding, does it, especially because it’s not really a thing most people want in the first place.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Not so sure about that, Ron… With some folks, it seems it’s all they have, either out of some perverted sense of envy or superiority… They want to hold on to that dubious privilege like a lifeline.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Nah… but if you’ve got an air mattress with a drink holder around somewhere and you’re not using, that’d be cool…

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    It’s yours, as soon as the ice melts off the pool. Shall we say July?

  • Herm

    Thank you so much Mike! The cross you choose to carry is between you and our Lord as He is the expert, certainly not I or the apostle Paul.

    I have been in counsel with the Rabbi painfully empathizing and pleading to somehow facilitate relieving the overwhelming weight of the cross you carry. I feel drawn to only share three similar scriptures from the New Testament: Luke 20:34-38, Mark 12:24-27 and Matthew 22:29-32. I know, after enquiring of Jesus regarding the gay marriage debacle our nation is in the midst of, Jesus only used marriage at that time to relate to the contractual structure of His relationship with His church to be. At that time most brides were given without choice to strengthen the family of their birth. Jesus does not condone a church without choice but insists on an eternal covenant bound by love. Civil marriage recognized by Caesar are of no concern to God for they are of the flesh bound by the laws of Man.

    From this point on in this response to you are truths I understand to be convicted of which can be asked of God to validate. I am just a child trying to relate the best I can the big picture Jesus is showing me. I am not and will never be your inerrant Rabbi, High Priest, Counselor, Advocate or Lord but I may be your brother in the Family of God.

    I know that it took eons in planning, preparing and nurturing for us to reach this point in our relationship with Whom we as mankind are in the image of. I know that we each alone and together know so very little of the eternity of learning yet possible. I know that my Creator is one in heart and mind bound by love in the single Spirit of God. I know that Spirit joining my infant heart and mind as one with my Creator.

    As children of God yes we must admonish each other solely because we love and support each other but we are children and no child admonishes their siblings as constructively as their parents. We must always direct our siblings in God for the best counsel to our Father and Brother in Heaven and in our hearts and minds.

    Jesus redirected much of what was written in our “Old Testament” to only what pointed to validate Him in prophesy and truly ignored the rest. An example that you may not have considered is that He tells us He is the Lord of the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was made for Man and not Man for the Sabbath. That was in total contradiction to the assumed spirit of the Old Testament as was interpreted by all the scriptural scholars of His time on Earth.

    This will take too long to digest if I don’t get to the point as “I” understand. The apostle Paul, once a Bible scholar known as Saul, still highly regarded the scriptures that once had convicted him to kill Christians in the name of God. He did correctly see the scriptures differently in how they prophesied and pointed to the Son of Man as having truly come as the Christ and Lamb of God. He did not get the word that no one of Jesus’ church should be called father, which Jesus spoke, for all within are children of only one Father in Heaven. No one is to be called instructor for Jesus’ teaching because we have only one Rabbi and that is Jesus. Matthew was there to know how to transcribe the words Paul did not receive from the Holy Spirit (Matthew 23:8-12).

    My point is that I know in my heart and mind that, though it is an uphill climb to convince my fellows of Man, homosexuality is a condition and not a choice. I know that the Old Testament is full of local common sense judgments that were not of God but were clearly using God’s name in vain to justify their discomfort from a minority different than them. I, also, know you have scoured the Internet, as have I, to understand where and how in the hell so many could be so wrong as to condemn perfectly merciful and loving people to exclude, isolate and exterminate them from the body of mankind. Do you think I might feel your pain, at least somewhat?

    Jesus told us, as His disciples, to go out into the world to share the Gospel (the good news) that our Father loves us all, to teach only His commands by how we live and to make more disciples for Him directly by shining His light from our hearts and minds bound to His in love through the Holy Spirit.

    His commands are completely summed up by Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 7:12 and Matthew 5:44 which includes the Spirit of the Decalogue and raises us to enemy love.

    The entrance requirement into the school of Jesus is complete in Luke 14:26, 27 which I am sure you are aware of. Luke 14:26 tells us that we must die to the traditions, many recorded in the scriptures, of our family influences, including our own previous convictions, from mankind that are not of God. Coming to Jesus as a little empty headed and hearted naïve but adorable child, bound by all love of you by the Holy Spirit for the Lord your God, is all the preparation necessary for Jesus to teach all as you are ready to learn.

    I am attracted physically to be socially, physically and spiritually intimate with most of our mankind who are physically and socially opposite than I. I do not understand personally how it works to be any different for others but know it is. I can look around me and realize that no one person is or ever will be the same as another, physically, socially or spiritually. What happens solely between consenting adults is none of my concern ever. If any neighbor is merciful I will love them as I do myself. I will in everything make every attempt to do to and for all others as I would have all others do to and for me. I have even learned to love my enemy with empathy and compassion and have learned to actually forgive. I love the Lord my God with all that is me to choose (heart, soul, strength and mind). I have accepted without ceasing the relationship of the Holy Spirit. I do have a feminine name given to me after baptism by Jesus into the Spirit. If you have and do at least these I can understand personally and without a doubt that you are a sibling with me in the Family of God.

    Jesus knows crosses and yokes firsthand because his earthly trade was as a carpenter for at minimum 20 years. Let Jesus pick out the cross for you to carry. There is truly peace and joy outside the “conservative church”. It was the “conservative church” who crucified Jesus because they did not know Him. Let the Father direct you as He did Jesus if and when you might need to follow Jesus. Accept the dove that lit upon Jesus at His baptism by John.

    God blesses you Mike and I truly hope this admonishes to lighten your burden as intended. Love you!

    P.S.:
    The Jesus I know teaches inclusion for all the empathetic, compassionate, tolerant, and merciful and not ever exclusion. By those fruits you will know the true disciples of Christ.

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    See, that’s what confuses me. How does someone GET in that position? Where’s the short in their wiring, that makes them think that anger and hatred are better than the ‘love’ that they natter on about incessantly?

  • Herm

    “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26 (NRSV)

    Ah, I can’t just leave it at the scripture to explain as it does to me. If we cannot hate the learned protective hate from our carnal families (and communities of birth) we cannot learn as a student of Jesus to love as He commands.

  • Janice Brantner

    Well, let’s see. Disciples of Jesus are commanded to love each other, their neighbours, and their enemies. They are promised that if faithful in developing beautiful, loving characters they will as joint heirs with Jesus have the honour of blessing all the families of the earth. There are some harsh words regarding oppression of any kind as well as lying, cheating, and participating in pagan sexual practices as worship, but I think we can agree those would be unacceptable in any decent society. So I’d say “Don’t be afraid” applies to everyone with the exception that some people will have some uncomfortable apologizing to do some day.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Works for me, Ron!

  • Hi Charles,

    Sorry for this late response. I left the house soon after my last comment. I suppose it was around 4pm at the time.

    And it’s good to hear that things seem to be looking up for you. I’ve seen addiction take its toll in my family, so I think it’s admirable when someone is working through and overcoming addictions. And yeah, I personally find it more difficult to follow Jesus’ teaching to love my enemies than to follow the traditional sex ethic. That’s a lot more challenging!

  • AmyHerrmann

    Or a progressive, dare I say it -liberal- one.

  • AmyHerrmann

    I think that if you accept that a person’s sexuality is something defined in their DNA, as out of an individual’s control as the color of their eyes, it becomes ludicrous to treat one as better than another. The Bible was written thousands of years ago. Our understanding of sexuality is light years away from what it was. I do not believe that God would intend for these people to lock away their sexuality and throw away the key.

  • I think loving & forgiving cannot be done w/out help fr the holy spirit. Cannot be done by my will in the flesh. My program has a third step where willingness to turn my life and will over to my higher power (a loving god is my choice) makes the rest of the steps possible. In A.A. we have alot more freedom to make up our own mind abt such things I think bc no body realy expects much fr alkies.

  • Janice Brantner

    Romans 1 is not about sexual orientation. It’s about idolatry and sexual acts as “worship”

  • I have experience living in total fear & hatred of everything & everyone. I was strung out on my own adrenaline rush. My dad was like that too. I was living in a constantly triggered reactivity. How did I get that way? Childhood traumas mostly compounded by disabilities & school yard bullies. Alcohol became a big part of my control pattern, my love, my god. When I got sober i got into religion. I use to read scripture like it was a stiff shot of booze. I was ripping and running w hard core quakers!

  • Hi Amy,

    I don’t know if DNA has anything to do with one’s sexuality, but I do believe that it’s outside a person’s control. (I certainly would have changed mine a long time ago as a middle/high school kid in rural Georgia!) But I don’t think it necessarily follows that, because a condition is outside one’s control, that condition is not indicative of something gone wrong. I’m sure you can think of examples.

    I do believe that we live in an imperfect, fallen world, and one of the things affected by that is human sexuality. And homosexual attraction is, I think, one of the ways in which our sexuality doesn’t quite line up with its original design. I don’t say that lightly; it has huge ramifications for my life.

    I agree, our understanding of sexuality is light years away from what it was. We now have a concept for sexual orientation, for one thing. But the bible isn’t so much concerned with sexual orientation as it is sexual ethics. And I just don’t think that what we know about orientation overrides those sexual ethics.

    It’s a long conversation to be had, but I think your comment about locking away one’s sexuality is very telling of our modern loss of appreciation for, and misunderstanding of, celibacy, something that enjoys a rich history within Christianity, and that the bible holds in high esteem, right along with marriage. Does it have its unique set of challenges? Sure. But it isn’t a death sentence.

  • Hi Herm,

    Thanks for taking the time to pray for me and putting so much thought into a response. I genuinely do appreciate that.

    I want you to know that I don’t feel like I’m carrying an unbearable burden by believing in and living according to the traditional sex ethic. I won’t pretend that it’s all roses and sunshine every day, but I think it has taught me things that I otherwise never would have learned. Really the most difficult thing is being constantly caught in the middle between progressives who think I’m kowtowing to oppressive straight overlords, and conservatives who think I’m compromising the gospel because I use words like gay and sexual orientation.

    There’s a lot in your post that I agree with and can get behind. But there’s also plenty of it with which I simply don’t see eye to eye. And I’m comfortable with that.

    I definitely agree that peace and joy comes not from the conservative church, but from Jesus. That’s where I find mine. And yes, Jesus is merciful. I am gay. And I am accepted. My obedience to what I believe Jesus calls me to is a response to that acceptance, not an attempt to gain it.

    Thanks again, for engaging with me here.

  • Realist1234

    ok but Jesus himself said, in connection with the Scripture of the Old Testament, ‘Scripture cannot be broken’. I wonder if soundbites such as yours are an excuse to take everything in the Old & New Testaments with a pinch of salt?

  • SamPsalm

    Go ahead and co-sign with a fluorish Benjamin L. Corey and make a mountainous meme out of it too. It won’t change what it is: foolishness. It actually makes sense why you would consider Jesus as the Word of God and the Bible as paper and ink: you have never met the Jesus of the Bible. If you do, you would get off that wide and broad highway sign-posted with mormon meme leading to you-won’t-know-where since you need to know what the Bible is – so as to read it – and know

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Wow… although it wasn’t addressed to me, you do realize there’s a vast difference between “mormon” and Mennonite don’t you? And that Ben is certainly not the former?

  • gimpi1

    And, of course, the best thing to do if someone disagrees with you is to refuse to look at their arguments or evidence. Yeah, that’s the way to learn, grow and understand other points of view. (end sarcasm)

    Really, shutting out those who disagree just guarantees you’ll never learn a thing. Is that what you think Christianity is all about?

  • gimpi1

    Oh… Oh my… That’s funny enough to warrant popcorn and a big soda. It’s much funnier than the last comedy I saw in a theater.

  • Jeff Preuss

    And not always the same collection of sentences, either…

    [Edited because I left out ‘of.’ Oops.]

  • gimpi1

    That tells you something right there, when someone offering civil differing views is banned, but people rudely and crudely attacking them aren’t.

    Specifically, what it tells you is, “These people are not worth my time.”

  • Actually, Scripture does mention that – explicitly. Go back and re-read Romans 1:21-23. “Though they knew God, they did not honor him as God… they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.” Seems really clear to me.

    Maybe next time, you should spend less time laughing and more time reading the Scriptures.

  • $136305622

    You are so right. I thought about it more and realized – ah, someone offering reasonable differing views gets banned because it is harder to demonize them if they come across as reasonable. Better to keep the nasty comments because they can point to them and say – see! libs are nasty!!!

  • SamPsalm

    Very intellectual and ‘deep’. And do you realize that ‘Mormon’ is a word used by Jesus of the Bible with very clear and distinct meaning and context – suitable to the comment I made above? See why the Bible should be your 1st external objective standards not that ‘Jesus’ of your feelings, culture, history and constructs?

  • Forgive me, apparently I’m not as familiar with the Bible as I’d thought – when does Jesus use the word “Mormon”?

  • He did indeed – but at the same time, Jesus challenged and overturned many “common-sense” readings of the Scriptures that were popular. Those two things need to be held in tension, rather than favoring one and ignoring the other. Or in other words, it should be taken “with a pinch of salt.” :-P

  • gimpi1

    While the people calling you names and condemning you are just fine? Interesting… (cough cough) hypocrisy (cough:-)

  • SamPsalm

    Of course, you are not. That is the whole purpose of this thread: it is paradise for people who actually go to war over a contrived mispelling of ‘mammon’ as ‘mormon’ – but not over the public and execrable desecration of the Holy Scriptures and its re-designation as ink and paper. Shame

  • $136305622

    lol i know! crazy folks.

  • Wow, what a reply – I was polite and asked kindly if you could please explain what you were saying, so that I might be educated. You responded with nothing but bile. By your fruit you are known.

    And no, Mammon and Mormon are not the same. If you’re going to publicly exalt yourself in this manner, it would pay to have at least a basic understanding of Biblical Greek and Hebrew.

    Going back to your original point, then, and substituting Mammon instead of Mormon – it still makes no sense. You do know that “Mammon” is greed, material wealth, and so on, yes? In what way is Ben’s statement even loosely connected to Mammon? You are correct that Mammon (not Mormon) has a very clear and distinct meaning and context, but you are so incredibly wrong about it being suitable to the comment you made above.

  • “It actually makes sense why you would consider Jesus as the Word of God and the Bible as paper and ink”

    Yes, it does: because both Jesus and the Bible say so. Which you should know, if you’re going to argue that reading the Bible is important, as you do. It’s not even an obscure passage.

  • SamPsalm

    Okay, you said my comment had bile: I wish it also has bite. Bile and Bite. That is what you find throughout the new testament reserved for apostasy and heresy. But of course, you wouldn’t know: Bible, ink and paper. and what’s the point explaining to you how ‘Mammon meme’ is the right context? You won’t get it: seeing Bible as ink and paper transfigures mere flesh, bone and bile to the giddy depths of asserting his blindingly hot understanding of ‘basic Biblical Greek and Hebrew’ as ‘incredibly’ right visions of the ultimate truth till someone else come up with another mormon, sorry mammon meme to co-sign. Lord Jesus

  • And still, all you have to offer is wormwood and gall. I say again: by your fruit you are known.

  • SamPsalm

    Yeah, uhmm, wait a minute – how about you just replace ‘paper and ink’ with ‘scroll/paper and ink’? That’s even deeper – with say, more historical ‘integrity, yes? How did the Body of Christ get to this point. (That wasn’t another question)

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Sorry if my means of expression bugs you… sue me… I type how I think, and how I believe. What you think I ‘should’ do, really doesn’t matter much, as lots of folks are free to tell others what they think they ‘should’ do.

    The Jesus I’ve known all my life as my friend and teacher, I freely admit, bears little resemblance to his portrayal by those who style themselves “Bible-believing Christians,” with all the trappings that label brings with it.

    Good thing is, I really don’t have to do, be or believe as you think I ‘should.’ My life would be a lot less peaceful and joyful were I to be required to waste it fruitlessly chasing the approval of others. Too many years were wasted, as it was, but I’m feeling much better now., thanks.

  • SamPsalm

    “Not the self anointed church nor the Bible can provide a forum for the Spirit to speak, only our open childish hearts and minds can”. That is the ancient highway – begun at Eden -to market untruth. Mix it up a bit. First leg ‘truth’, the rest untruth and placebo transported in on the ‘truth’ that was first spoken. But of course, who knows what the truth is? Especially as the platform for knowing truth is the heart of a child open to the next truth-high: not the Bible. How did I get here? Oh, I know, I allowed my childish heart and mind to race ahead of me. Bye, ‘brothers’.

  • Wow, you’re not even bothering to try making your responses relevant at this point, are you? Oh wait, I forgot… there’s no point in explaining anything because we wouldn’t get it.

  • SamPsalm

    Did you see my up-tick too? Wormwood and gall. Not to forget bile. And you so polite? Bible: ink and paper.

  • SamPsalm

    Deep. Another collectible meme

  • SamPsalm

    Great feeling. To be called a non-Bible believing believer – with no trappings, frills, whistles and bells. I should try it. Which organic non-Bible-derivative-pushing market did you source it from? Share the feeling

  • SamPsalm

    No, he exists. As a human being. Even as a gay Christian. It is his subjectively guaranteed right to be. The only problem is that one day Jesus would say ‘I do not know you’ to some people who were sure in their feelings and online networks that they were His Christian. Not helping Ian B to really face up to himself and ask that question of himself is not love: it is intolerance and bigotry.

  • Mr. G.

    Face up to himself? In what way? Are you some sort of mind reader perceiving something he isn’t facing up to?

    Ask what question of himself?

  • Herm

    “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” John 16:12-15 (NRSV)

  • SamPsalm

    Hallelujah and placebo

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Hmmm… I’d bother to respond in detail, except that your sarcasm kinda lets me know that you think you’ve got all this stuff figured out and tied up in a neat little package anyway, so it’d be rather pointless.

    Have a great day, anyway, Sam.

  • I almost feel like he’s trying to get himself banned so that he can claim it as persecution for fighting the good fight, or something…

  • Only those with a reprobate mind, or a basic understanding of how language works. You’re demonstrating over and over again that you know where the passages are, but not what they say.

  • AmyHerrmann

    I would be more inclined to agree with you if it weren’t so obvious to me that people do not choose their sexual orientation. I have never been attracted to women. It wasn’t a choice I made, it simply was. Almost every gay person I have ever known knew from a very early age that they were different. They made no choice. Doesn’t sin require choice?

    I have a hard time accepting that God wants every person attracted to members of their own sex to be life-long celibates. You’re right, celibacy does have a long, long history within Christianity. Catholic priests and nuns are the most obvious examples. I think the difference is that God calls one to orders; its a clear choice made to suppress normal and healthy desire in the service of God. It’s actually a vow of chastity, which is also what you’re suggesting. Are you Catholic? I ask because your position is the Catholic Church’s.

  • Realist1234

    And yet Jesus didnt treat Scripture like that.

  • In that case, I’d be interested to know your take on “you have heard it said [X] but I say [Y].” Because that seems to be very much a challenge and overturning of “common-sense” readings, exactly as I said.

  • And with that brief statement, you’ve made it clear exactly why attempting to reason with you is pointless; your starting point is that “being gay is a sin, therefore the Bible says so” when your starting point should be “what does the Bible say?” I have no “pro gay” or “anti gay” arguments. All I have is what the Bible says, read faithfully in light of the context of those passages. And because all I bother with is what the Bible says, I feel no need to declare that “I will destroy” any argument that makes me uncomfortable. I let the Bible speak for itself, and when it tells me that I’m wrong, I change myself to line up with it.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Ah, “destroy.” So you’ve come here to wage a pointless battle over your steadfast interpretation of Scripture, rather than gain or share understanding of Scripture.

    As long as your intentions are clear.

  • Realist1234

    You seem to be missing my point. Taking Scripture ‘with a pinch of salt’ means casting doubt on its truth and reliability. Jesus never did that and it is not for his followers to do it either. Jesus clearly emphasised ‘grace’ instead of ‘law’, indeed He said He had fulfilled the Law. That does not change the truth or validity of scripture, at the time of the Old Testament. In the specific cases of ‘you have heard it said…” these were effectively the rules used in law courts in Israel. For example ‘an eye for an eye…’ was God imposing a limitation of retributive justice through the courts, thus limiting the punishment received by the perpertrator to that experienced by the victim. Otherwise , left to the cry for venegence from typical human beings, much more damage would have been done to the perpertrator. Even before Jesus’ day it was common for monetary recompense to be used in case of injury. Jesus was emphasizing how we should react in our personal relationships, not through courts of law.

  • You are correct, I did miss your point. I think in part because you and I appear to interpret the idiom “with a pinch of salt” differently. And I confess, after having gone to check what the idiom truly means, I was interpreting it incorrectly. I was taking it based on its origin, when way back in the Middle Ages it was believed that salt would neutralize poison, and thus a “pinch of salt” would purify your drink without you needing to pour it out – in other words, the pinch of salt cleaned up toxic additions and left only the original substance. Fascinating how far the idiom has traveled from its roots.

  • Realist1234

    Indeed, as dear old Mr Spock would have said, ‘Fascinating’!

  • Janice Brantner

    Adultery is never ok.

  • Janice Brantner

    If you read Romans 1, beginning about verse 18, you can see the extreme evil that is being described. This in no way describes good people who were born homosexual and choose to live faithfully with a same sex partner, whether they worship God or not. Just read about how evil these people are who are described at the end of the chapter. It describes anyone, gay or straight, who chooses evil over good and suffers the consequences of such a life. It certainly doesn’t describe gay people who live beautiful, loving lives.

  • Hi Amy,

    No, I’m not Catholic, though I do think they’ve done a better job at holding onto a reverence for celibacy than Protestants have.

    And in case it wasn’t clear in my last reply, I am gay, myself. I’ll add my name to the list of gay people with whom you’ve interacted who knew at a very early age. It most definitely isn’t a choice. And yes, I believe sin does require choice. I don’t believe that being gay is a sin. I believe that gay sex and gay romantic relationships are. I know that’s terribly offensive to many, and there have been times when it was terribly offensive to me. And to be honest, I don’t always really FEEL that truth as much as I simply submit to it. But I just remain unconvinced that every single Christian tradition, for most of the church’s two thousand years, simply misunderstood the biblical teaching on this, and it wasn’t until our enlightened age that we realized the hidden truth that was there all along. We’re Christians, after all, not Gnostics.

    I do believe that the default vocation for a gay Christian is celibacy, although some of us have found ourselves in somewhat unique circumstances and are in mixed-orientation marriages (we’re married to someone of the opposite sex). There are quite a number of us (gay Christians living according to the traditional sex ethic) out there, believe it or not. And we often catch it from the left and the right. But I believe that we are living out Christian teaching as best we know how.

  • JTT

    Susan and Rob are completely lying about the gay-bashing story. Look it up on any gay blog and you’ll see he was beaten because the two were in a relationship and he was threatening to blackmail the younger guy.

  • Wolf

    You’re seriously following people to other blogs because they banned you from trolling on their own? Get lost. Reported you.

  • JTT

    Following everybody all over, yes. They need to be exposed for lying.

  • Wolf

    I’ve reported you to this blog’s mods and to Disqus itself – I have nothing further to say to you.

  • JTT

    Good. Just as long as I let enough people know before I get banned.

  • JTT

    “Non-affirming Christians: Does THIS Look Like Love??” Everybody read this article by Susan Cottrell, then read the REAL story on any gay blog (LGBTQ nation is a good one). You’ll see what liars she and her husband are. Time to expose them like Jimmy Swaggart. Don’t take my word for it, go read for yourself.

  • If you disagree with a blog post on a completely different blog, please feel free to write your own blog rebutting it, and get as many people to read it as you want- that’s how the market of ideas works. But this is my blog now, and I don’t see a place for carry over conversations that have nothing to do with what my readers are talking about. Please don’t bring that here.

  • Marnie

    I read Charisma from time to time. I often find things I’m glad I read, but nevertheless also find things that make me cringe – in their negativity, in the way they choose to speak of others, and especially in the way they speak of fellow Christians who don’t share their positions. After all, Jesus said the world would know we are his disciples by the way we love one another. While I read your blog occasionally, too, and find wonderful truths here, I have to say I had the same cringing feeling today in my reading that I’ve often had while reading Charisma. You are right that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Kingdom, but all this back and forth slandering doesn’t exactly further that truth. Thank you for your faithfulness to write, but I’d love to read something less demeaning toward fellow Christians, regardless of which “side” is right or wrong.

  • Sam Medina

    For it to be slander, it has to be false. Please buy a dictionary.

  • Sam Medina

    There is no such thing as a gay christian. The ONLY response to the gospel that results in salvation is to REPENT. To not only continue in abomination, but also to assert it as a valid identity, is NOT repentance.

    Otherwise, we could have Rapist Christians, Serial Killer Christians, Cannibal Christians, Zoophiliac Christians, and so on.

    Those who truly believe will REPENT and forsake the old life of sin, not embrace it as an inherent, unchangeable identity.

    Jesus never said, ‘Go, and do as you please.’

  • Sam Medina

    Actually, no homosexual is a true follower.

    Whosoever does not OBEY the Son shall not have life. (John 3:36). The Son said he didn’t come to destroy the Law, and he ONLY described marriage as the union of male and female.

    Homosexuality is still an abomination, and anyone who continues in that lifestyle while believing they are a Christian is delusional.

  • Sam Medina

    You already aren’t. :)

  • Mr. G.

    Pardon me for doubting your authority to make that statement.

  • Mr. G.

    But Jesus did praise the faith of a man in a loving same-sex relationship and healed his lover without the slightest indication that there was anything amiss with their love.

  • L. Ron, hereby a Pony

    Y’know what gives me hope? (Besides ponies, I mean.) That sad, blinkered haters like you are a dying breed, while the rest of us move on. Srsly, dude, nobody buys the argument any more, and as I said, you don’t get to make the rules. But thanks for playing!

  • Sarah Arkin

    I just stumbled upon this article. I have never read Patheos. I have only read one article on Charisma via a friend’s FB post. After reading Benjamin’s post, I won’t read Patheos. For a site that claims Christianity as it’s foundation, I find it grossly disappointing that you are perpetuating hatred towards another Christian website. Whether y’all agree or disagree, is besides the point. You, Benjamin, are called to love, not fling hatred! If you truly believe in God, it is He who says, “vengeance is mine”. If you find that Charisma lies/slanders, that’s between them and God. Three gatekeepers of the mouth: Is it true? Is it kind? and Is it necessary?

  • Herm

    ““Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. …” Matthew 10:34-39

    “Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:25-27

    Bless you Sara! You are loved!

  • Paul Julian Gould

    And yet, somehow it was necessary to comment how you’re not going to read this blog any longer…

    When I’ve arrived on a blog, whereon I find I disagree with the majority of the content, I leave… I don’t announce my displeasure, nor do I find it necessary to judge the intentions of the bloggers nor the commenters… If the blog as a whole is not to my taste, I leave without fanfare…

    Then again, I usually read more than one blog posting before deciding if the blogger’s full of crap, so there’s that…

  • Herm

    Well Sara, if I were you I would hang around and participate. I, myself, see your reaction as demanding warm and fuzzy for Christians and those evil homosexuals, who apparently in your mind couldn’t possibly be Christians, be damned. What happened to love your merciful neighbor as yourself and your enemy regardless of religious faith?

    I don’t know what brought you here but it must have been the word “charisma” tied to “toxic”, especially since you haven’t read on Patheos before which is huge and varied enough to include avid readers of Charisma News.

    Would you sit quiet when you knew your sister was being lied to by your brother? Would you honestly say, “If you find that my brother lies/slanders, that’s between him and our Father”?

    Stay around, read some more and continue to comment as your heart and mind lead you. It does you or I no good to go and read only what we find warm and fuzzy for we do not grow or learn from 100% agreement. Ease and comfort all the time will cause our hearts and minds to wither away from lack of use. Strength comes only from stretching and tearing the muscles which without will die of atrophy.

    You are welcome here anytime and Ben is the most excellent of hosts.

    Love you!

  • cncsh

    Untrue.

  • cncsh

    There is “logos”, and “rhema”. The Bible is God’s word, and Jesus is the Word made flesh.

  • Mr. G.

    So you claim – other opinions differ. {shrug}

  • cncsh

    Okay… so you are admitting it’s just your opinion. Fine. Yep. Opinions do differ.

  • Mr. G.

    There is considerable scholarship done by people without an man-made ideological ax to grind supporting my opinion. I’ll take the unbiased opinion whenever possible. I’m more afraid of answering, “Why did you treat my children that way?” than I am of answering, “So you think same-sex love is OK?”.

  • cncsh

    It’s worth noting, that in your claim which I responded to with “untrue”, you don’t site the scriptural passage you are speaking of. … and I’m not sure you can say you have landed on “unbiased opinion”. If Jesus died in order to offer a way of repentance for sin, and you tell anyone there’s no need to repent (no matter what sin)… you’d be right in being afraid of answering “Why did you treat them that way?” as well.

  • Mr. G.

    The story about the Roman Centurion in both Luke and Matthew. To understand the context, you have to go to historical sources outside the Bible to tell us about the culture in place at the time.

    That depends on what you mean by “If Jesus died in order to offer a way of repentance for sin”. I don’t think Substitutionary Atonement is operative. A culture that was completely sold on the notion that God can be manipulated / controlled via sacrifices might frame it that way, but that doesn’t make it so. I don’t see Jesus’ death as having one iota of effect on God’s willingness to forgive. His death was a message that forgiveness is available via repentance. Turning the belief that Jesus’ death somehow influences God into a “Get Out Of Hell Free” card requires no repentance. i.e. under that plan, a person can be a total jerk to everyone for every day of their lives and still “go to heaven” if they believe the right stuff about Jesus.

  • Secular Liberation

    “No wild beasts are so dangerous to man as one Christian to another”-Julian

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Meh… there y’go all historyish and all… Next thing, you’ll be citing the Philokalia, and you’ll have to bear the responsibility for the wackiness bound to ensue…

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Update on the family referenced above, 7 months later…

    Sekulow’s garbage is still front and center, as is the persecution pimping and Likud-loving (without it ever crossing their textbook-Tea Party, very anglo fundie minds that the guy they rent their house to is (as of my adoption, complete at 6 months of age, and which I claim, as my beloved late Pop claimed me… Blessings of ha-Shem on his soul), descended from a long line of Red-Sea Pedestrians, and I despise pretty much everything that family claims and stands for, it being a terrified corruption of what their chosen Rabbi taught 2,000 years ago… as do a quite sizable number of citizens of Israel, and Jews in the US and elsewhere… Israel is not Likud, nor is Likud specifically Israel…

    There was a time during the first Duggar scandal that there were quite a few supportive “shares” with little murmurs of “didn’t we all make mistakes when we were 14-16?” I commented, as it deeply hurt me, owing to personal life history. Only time I ever have commented on anything, but her son told me a week later that his mom never reads anyone’s comments… Just marathon Facebook spamming sessions every night from 9 pm to sometimes 3 am, with reflexive approving one-liners on every one. Then gets up in the morning, hits the globe to mark everything as read, and driving on. Funny, though, that the Duggar stuff seems to have been been scrubbed and flushed as though it never happened, once the schmuck had “relations” as an adult with another adult not his wife… Interesting, and apropos of the original post that some “sins” are less forgivable than others.

    I realize Ben’s astute blog post was 7 months ago, but I have had quite a few gentle conversations with folks here, and consequently, been introduced to other fine people across the Patheos spectrum, and believe I’ve had some wise counsel, not always addressed to me, but which I took to heart, nonetheless. Just seemed to be an appropriate place for an update on the people that I intend to bless with a long letter on our way out of town. Maybe if their son reads it to them (and not to unnecessarily shame peoples’ looks, in every single way, they fit the common stereotypes of old, bitter, obese, gun- and Jesus-obsessed Tea Partiers… Actually, the entire family (and it’s a damned big family, no pun intended), fits the vibe in just about every way, including a middle-aged, never smiling, self-hating gay woman, who, I guess, figures Jesus will welcome her for living her entire life in sorrow and lying to herself and everyone else… Disturbing…)… Maybe… just maybe something will crack the shell, just a little… Not a realistic thought, but a hope…

    And, no… that letter will not have one word of profanity, nor purposeful insult. Such would say volumes more about me than it would about them… I use them often as examples, but would never disrespect them by identifying information.

    I apologize for the lateness of this entry, and don’t know if at this late date it will be read, but there it is.

  • Dlueva

    Charisma nor any other publication can control what others think or comment without censoring them, and surely you as an author are not suggesting they should. I see no real difference in a comment, (albeit misguided or wrong) which expresses the views of one person and someone who writes an entire blog expressing his. It is the choice of the reader to embrace what is being said, or to move on, or in my own case to simply read the article. I don’t see the garbage you purport to see. Is what you are doing right in the eyes of God? I sense a lot of anger in your post. You don’t like the comments who disagree with you, so you simply write one looong comment of your own? What is the difference?

  • Dlueva

    Funny, I didn’t see that in her post at all, but I guess one sees and hears what one is looking for… Very sad. As to how she or I for that matter came to be here, FB lists other articles to read when you read Charisma or any other publication. The only reason… I’m not here to argue, and won’t, but just thought you wanted an answer to the statement you posed to her. Have a blessed day.

  • Herm

    “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:15-20

    If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26-27

    Sara wrote:

    Three gatekeepers of the mouth: Is it true? Is it kind? and Is it necessary?”

    All that was written in the above article is and has been verified as “true” and supported by examples.

    Benjamin wrote:

    4. Charisma News Does Not Help One Attain The Fruits of the Spirit.

    The Bible tells us that the evidence we’re on the right path will be that our lives exemplify “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

    It is uncomfortable but not un”kind” to call out another for what you believe is misleading others to fear their enemies rather than to love their enemies. That is what Benjamin felt compelled to share in the article, what Sara felt compelled to share in her comment, what I feel compelled to share in my response to her and you, and what you feel compelled to share with me.

    Just for us all to take our valuable earthly resources to originate and/or respond to anything says it is concerning so if we love each other it certainly is “necessary” to put on the table for all to make their own judgment.

    Dialog is necessary by all students but especially so for students of Christ. Sharing in love of others is not always warm and fuzzy but that does not make it in any way “vengeance” as Sara related to the article. I do not take your response here as vengeful but concerned defense of Sara and Charisma News. Are you AKA Sara?

    Thank you for your concern! Love you!

  • Falken

    The key difference, which you missed, is also the fact Charisma stokes these fires of hatred and fear, even feed off of them. A publication loses further credibility keeping a proven liar in staff as well.

  • LynnW

    Although I agree that “Charisma” has its share of problems, I would suggest that we all have our blind spots and a need for “come-to-Jesus” moments. A willingness for anyone to twist Scripture to make it say what he wants it to say (with much scholarly evidence to the contrary) or to lead an entire generation from orthodoxy calls for the same accountability as does slander or any other sin. No one is immune, and I imagine God is shaking his head at all of us.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    And greed… let’s not forget greed… errrmmmm… “prosperity.”

  • Rusty Writer

    Charisma editor Jennifer LeClaire says in her bio she has a criminal record and is an ex-con with a history of drug abuse who divorced her “Godly” husband while he was on a church missions trip. She claims she is innocent of attacking a policewoman, but she did not plead guilty in court. And a policeman saw the attack and verified the victim’s account of Jennifer’s violence. But it’s all good. God used her lie about being sick in jail to introduce her to a preacher and since her jailhouse conversion she gets to write from her ocean front condo about all the people “out there’ who are immoral.

  • Rusty Writer

    Charisma is home to admitted heroin addict and drug dealer Michael Brown, who now makes his living spreading lies about non-Christians, especially Jews and gays.

  • Rusty Writer

    What is ironic is that she criticizes Christians who criticize Christians while she herself is criticizing Christians.

  • Rusty Writer

    The Gospels never show Jesus teaching a single word against homosexuals. and “sexual orientation is not something you can repent of any more than eye color,” admitted John Smid, long-time leader of the oldest ex-gay ministry, Love in Action, before his organization faded into history and he wed a nice man.
    Exodus International, the only worldwide network of ex-gay ministries had all their leaders admit they were not heterosexual and nobody who came to them in their 40 years of ex-gay ministry changed from homosexual to heterosexual. They also joined every major ex-gay group from the US to Australia with decades of “change” claims in the dustbin of history.

  • Rusty Writer

    If you say “No homosexual” you even include those who live celibate lives. But Jesus never spoke a word against homosexuals, per the Gospels.In the OT there were 114 abominations, but nobody including you knows any of them except that one you misuse to address “homosexuality” which in reality is a modern medical concept derived from scientific study not known in the Bronze Age when the list of abominations was created.
    Sam, you have no clue what sexual orientation is, and you use your ignorance to harm total strangers. You are a modern day Pharisee, not a follower of Christ. You never share a loving thought in your many posts, you just condemn, condemn, condemn. You are the accuser of the brethren.

  • Wolf

    Mmkay. If digging up year-old comments to get a rise out of strangers on the Internet is what makes you happy in life, you go right ahead sweetie :)

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Pleased and a little amused that such a thread, more than 1 year old, still garners interest… Saw some recent comments on another of Dr. Ben’s estimable blog postings of 2 years ago…

    Shows, to me, that the dear minister still is able to hit some hot-buttons, and BTW, DF, I do agree with your comment.

  • steghorn21

    Mr G, if you are a practicing homosexual, then you can’t be a Christian as this behavior is strongly condemned in the bible. That’s not Charisma being “hateful”, but comes from the bible itself.

  • steghorn21

    Rusty, Jesus never condemned wife beating or bestiality either. Guess they’re okay, right? Homosexuality is roundly condemned in both the Testaments and there is no way that Jesus, who said that all a man had to do to commit adultery was to LOOK at a women, would have condoned acts like sodomy. He also said that he came to fulfil the law (ie. the moral law of the OT) and next to destroy it. There are also many, many homosexuals who have rejected this lifestyle and become happy heterosexuals. What Jesus was against was unrepentant sin – whether homosexual sin, heterosexual sin, robbery, murder gluttony. Finally, please be careful who you consign to the dustbin of history: that remark came from a certain Leon Trotsky, a devoted follower of communism – an ideology that itself ended up in history’s rubbish dump. Blessings.

  • steghorn21

    What bible have you been reading? Please check your translation!

  • steghorn21

    Our “opinions” don’t matter. It’s what God thinks and wants that counts. Sorry.

  • Mr. G.

    The original language texts.

  • Mr. G.

    To borrow a phrase: “What bible have you been reading? Please check your translation!” The Bible condemns homosexual rape, pederasty, and engaging with pagan temple prostitutes. If you researched the original texts instead of poor English translations, you’d know this. It does NOT condemn non-adulterous loving relationships of any gender mix.

  • steghorn21

    Wrong.You can decide to follow Jesus but you don’t get to make up the rules of membership. If you claim to be a follower of Jesus then you follow his teachings too and those of the Old Testament that he came to fulfill. It’s not about us or what we want but about being true to Him. We’re all sinners but we have to repent of our sins to be a true follower. If I am a practicing homosexual, an adulterer, a liar or cheat, then I need to repent and turn away from those sins before I can honestly claim I am a true follower of Jesus. Those are the rules of membership follower of Jesus must abide to. If not, we might be in for a bad time at that very un-PC Christian event: judgement. Blank Ron, I say this in love, believe me: ask your friend to examine his conscience, just as I do mine. Blessings.

  • steghorn21

    Correct. It is as clear as day in the Bible.

  • Mr. G.

    OK. And how do we know what God thinks? Please don’t say “The Bible”. That’s just your opinion – and you claim our opinions don’t matter ;-)

  • steghorn21

    Sorry, Rusty. The bible is crystal clear about homosexuality and no amount of theological wriggling will change it. As for attacking Sam’s stance on love, well love also means telling the truth no matter how painful it is. What would be very unloving would be NOT to warn people of what awaits them if they don’t turn from sin. I say this as someone who fights against his own bunch of sins daily and not as a “hater”.

  • steghorn21

    Fortunately, BR, truth is truth. It is not a numbers game. At one point, I’m sure the number of people who refused to believe that the earth was flat was dying out too. So what? The Truth prevailed. Whether 3 or 3bn people believe what the bible says about homosexuality is irrelevant. It is the truth and can never be changed. Regards

  • steghorn21

    Mr G, you don’t have to act like anyone; you just have to follow Jesus and have faith in him. If you do that, you will recognise sin and be able to turn away from it more easily.

  • steghorn21

    Mr G, I’ll pray for you more than Sam M.

  • Mr. G.

    As a follower of Jesus, I have no difficulty recognizing sin and turning away from it.

  • Mr. G.

    What are you going to pray for? That God will change my opinion to comply with yours?

  • Mr. G.

    What’s referred to as “an abomination” in the Bible is consorting with pagan temple prostitutes and engaging in the religious rites of idol worshipers. If you check the original language texts and understand the cultural context, you’ll see that.

  • L. Ron, Liddle’ Pony

    ‘Truth.’
    Thanks, sunshine, I needed a good laugh today!

  • Rusty Writer

    Sorry, John. The bible never did address ‘homosexuality’ because that is a modern medical term and concept derived from scientific evidence which did not exist during ancient times. YOU HATERS ARE LIKE THE ORLANDO SHOOTER, FILLED WITH RAGE AND CONDEMNATION, BUT UNABLE TO CHANGE A SINGLE PERSON ON THE PLANET FROM HOMOSEXUAL TO HETEROSEXUAL, INCLUDING YOURSELF. THE SICKNESS IS HOMOPHOBIA.

  • Rusty Writer

    John, you hold the same views as ISIS and the KKK, as well as the Orlando shooter. PS there is no place called “Hell” except in Michigan.

  • L. Ron, Liddle’ Pony

    See, thing is, you don’t get to make up the rules either. I’m sure you think you’re right, but I see no reason to accept your arguments over his. Rather the opposite, in fact. When in doubt, I always go with the one who likes to hug.

  • Rusty Writer

    John, you chose to write in the aftermath of the Orlando shootings, placing yourself on the side of the mass murderer, of ISIS and the KKK. You are a hater, just as surely as those people are haters.

  • Rusty Writer

    Here is every word Jesus said against homosexuals (____________________________________________).
    Sam, you yourself do NOT live under Old Testament Law. Stop falsely claiming it applies to LGBT people today. That is pure nonsense.
    And Jesus never spoke about whether same-sex marriage should be allowed; the verse you reference is Jesus answering questions on divorce and remarriage, teachings so widely ignored by anti-gay evangelicals that they have the worst divorce rates in society, per shocked researchers at evangelical Baylor Christian University.

  • Rusty Writer

    The bible never addressed sexual orientation. The ancient collection of myths was gathered thousands of years ago, many decades before the scientific evidence was gathered to create the modern medical term and concept of “homosexuality” which we have today.

  • Rusty Writer

    Jesus never spoke a word against homosexuals during his life, per the Gospel stories. John you are a modern day Pharisee.

  • Rusty Writer

    The truth is the bible is a flat earth document which was proven to have gotten the entire solar system wrong when Galileo’s telescope showed everyone the bible’s claims that the earth rises and sets over the earth was wrong. The telescope also showed the bible was wrong when it claimed the earth had four corners and was held up above the underworld (Hades or Hell) by four pillars. The truth is the bible was wrong on slavery, genocide, requiring rape victims to wed their rapist, stoning to death non-virgin brides on their wedding night and executing children for speaking disrespectfully to their parents (found in both old and new testaments).

  • Rusty Writer

    Tons of details on the bible as flat earth document…

    https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

  • Rusty Writer

    LOL, what rich irony. You are publicly attacking a Christian organization for attacking a Christian organization while saying anyone who does so is a wrongdoer, pointing the finger back at yourself totally unaware. Your comment does not meet your own criteria: is it kind? is it necessary? NOPE

  • Rusty Writer

    John, using the dirty rhetorical tricks of conflating the minority group you hate with harmful but totally unrelated things only shows us you are blinded by prejudice and hate. FACT: THERE ARE ZERO HOMOSEXUALS WHO TURNED INTO HETEROSEXUALS VIA CHRIST, ADMITTED THE LEADERS OF LOVE IN ACTION, THE OLDEST EX-GAY MINISTRY AND EXODUS INTERNATIONAL, THE LARGEST AND ONLY WORLDWIDE ONE.
    Their admissions confirmed what every medical association said: sexual orientation is not a choice.
    Stop equating homosexuality with communism. The original church was communistic, holding all things in common and giving to each one as he had need.

  • Rusty Writer
  • Rusty Writer

    Per the gospels, Jesus never spoke a single word against homosexuals. Per the evangelical ex-gay leaders after 40 years of ‘change’ claims via Jesus: “Nobody we knew of experienced a change of orientation from homosexual to heterosexual” explained John Smid and Alan Chambers, long-time leaders of the oldest and largest 2 ex-gay ministries. So many ex-gay leaders concurred that EVERY MAJOR, DECADES-OLD EX-GAY MINISTRY FROM THE US TO AUSTRALIA FADED INTO HISTORY.

  • Rusty Writer

    Sam, stop that lying. John 3:36 is not Jesus denouncing homosexuality. He never did. Not one word. And abominations were merely examples of ritual uncleanness, no Christian today worries about abominations or lives by the Old Testament law, including you. Repent of your bigotry and hate, for Christ’s sake. PS sexual orientation is not a chosen lifestyle, it’s a trait a person is born with, as brain scan studies of adults and fetuses show.

  • Handsome Jack

    I got banned from their comment section for believing in the theory of evolution and stating the earth revolved around the sun in an elliptical orbit. I should have known these people were whack jobs after seeing an article titled “Is Hillary Clinton the anti-Christ or an Illuminati witch?” These people are CRAAAAZY! Not to mention, charisma news can single handily lower one’s IQ.

  • Handsome Jack

    I can’t imagine that Charisma has published anything anyone would be glad to read. These people are insane and generally dim witted.

  • Handsome Jack

    I got banned instantly when I corrected an article containing false scientific information. Apparently, science is a conspiracy from the devil.

  • Handsome Jack

    Same here. There was an article claiming that God put the earth the perfect distance from the sun and that if the planet were an inch closer/further from the sun we would all die. So, I corrected them by saying the earth orbited the sun in an elliptical orbit with the distance varying 3.1 million miles each year. My comment was deleted and my account was banned.

  • Handsome Jack

    Same here, I was banned for correcting false scientific claims on one of their articles.

  • Handsome Jack

    Charisma news is more of a cult than mainstream Christian

  • Handsome Jack

    Their authors are either dim witted and/or truly disturbed.

  • Handsome Jack

    They’ll ban you if you even show a hint of logic in your rebuttal. They only ban the people they are afraid of.

  • Handsome Jack

    I just heard of them today and I am already banned from their comment section, lol.

  • Handsome Jack

    They banned me for stating that the Earth revolved around the sun in an elliptical orbit.

  • Handsome Jack

    I find it hard to take a comment seriously when its author over-uses caps.

  • I don’t kid about things like that! hahahaha

  • Suzie112

    And: mean spirited, judgmental, cruel, spiteful, divisive, slandering, hypocritical, purveyors of lies and conspiracies, and lacking in love and charisma.

  • Man from Modesto

    I just read an article about Sunday Adeleja on their site. It said he was defrocked… but the crimes the article alleged never happened. There is no board over Sunday, either. It is all false witness. So, glad to see someone warning others.

  • Dee

    Wrong…it certainly does.

  • Mr. G.

    If you’re going to claim that the Bible condemns non-adulterous loving relationships, I expect you to cite at least 1 example. Please grace us with the citation that supports your claim.

  • Dee

    New Testament:
    Romans 1:
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

  • Mr. G.

    Well, you failed with that one. Romans 1 condemns hooking up with pagan temple prostitutes in the course of idol worship – NOT non-adulterous loving relationships. Would you like to try again?