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<\/a><\/p>\nToday, I interview David Orton on his book, Snakes in the Temple: Unmasking Idolatry in Today\u2019s Church<\/a>.<\/p>\n Enjoy!<\/p>\n Instead of asking, \u201cwhat is your book about,\u201d I\u2019m going to ask the question that\u2019s behind<\/em> that question. And that unspoken question is, \u201chow are readers going to benefit from reading your book?\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n David Orton: The reader will benefit from a \u201croot and branch\u201d expos\u00e9 of the contemporary church\u2019s hidden idolatry.<\/p>\n The book shows that the enemy of our souls \u2013 Satan \u2013 finds footholds in the corporate life of the church through the inner life of both people and leaders\u2014this is the root<\/em>. These idolatrous attitudes, values, and mindsets then play out in how the church does ministry and leadership, how she structures herself\u2014this is the branch<\/em>.<\/p>\n Through this the reader will not only discover the root causes of the western church\u2019s spiritual malaise, but also find solutions that are not merely cosmetic or exclusively structural\u2014it\u2019s not just a matter of re-jigging how we do<\/em> church. These solutions are within the grasp of every believer through their own heart response to God. This will then play out with some spiritual authenticity in a complete re-formation of the people of God from the inside out, effecting mindsets and then structures, ultimately leading to the regeneration and renewal of whole cultures and nations.<\/p>\n What does \u201cSnakes in the Temple\u201d mean, exactly?<\/strong><\/p>\n David Orton: \u201cSnakes in the Temple\u201d is referenced from Ezekiel 8 where the elders of Israel \u2013 the leaders of God\u2019s people \u2013 had created a completely concealed room within the temple dedicated to the secret worship of snakes and reptiles\u2014and this, while the temple\u2019s ritual continued as normal.<\/p>\n It provides a potent picture of the pseudo-spirituality of the contemporary church. While our programs, services, gatherings, and conferences continue unabated, internally we \u2013 as leaders \u2013 have bowed to the dominance of created things\u2014of reputation, success, and growth. Like the generation of Christ and the apostles, we have unwittingly established the house of God as the \u201csynagogue of Satan\u201d.<\/p>\n Tell us about the experiences that shaped the insights in the book.<\/strong><\/p>\n David Orton: After 30 years of ministry and church leadership I was well versed in church life and much of it very positive.<\/p>\n I was converted at the height of the Charismatic Renewal and Jesus Revolution. I was launched in my spiritual journey through a powerful conversion, coming out of the counter-culture of the late 1960s\u2014we were looking for authenticity and social revolution. We were immediately immersed in an experimental movement that sort to reform the church through the restoration of personal shepherding and fathering apostles.<\/p>\n Also integral to the DNA of this movement was an emphasis on God\u2019s will being done on earth. We had a vision of the kingdom of God renovating all spheres of life\u2014of cultural transformation. Strategic to this was a redeemed community demonstrating the wisdom and love of God to the world. For this to happen the church needed to be radically reformed. She needed to be set free from man-made systems that divided her and restored to first century apostolic unity across whole cities. This would demonstrate God\u2019s power and the integrity of the gospel in transforming man, not only individually but also corporately.<\/p>\n So, that was the vision. But as the saying goes, \u201cThe devil is in the detail!\u201d<\/p>\n That particular movement \u2013 as with so many \u2013 contained the seeds of its own destruction. What we saw was that no matter what the structures and systems of church life \u2013 whether organizational or organic \u2013 the human factor is the same. The apostolic leader we related to was exposed for serial immorality and subtle abuse of power over many years. He was a highly gifted person exercising leadership throughout the Pacific Rim, including Australia and North America. Despite an emphasis on relationship, personal shepherding, and character there was still a subliminal emphasis on hierarchical authority and leadership. This and human weakness played into the movement\u2019s demise.<\/p>\n With this and subsequent pastoral experience in a denominational setting and in pioneering a national citywide pastors prayer movement, focusing on relational unity we had ample first-hand proof that something was radically wrong. Both our pastoral situation and the national movement of pastoral unity hit a wall. Values and leadership conflicts plagued both. I resigned all my leadership roles and involvements. And what we thought might be a 6-month sabbatical became 5 years of cave-time. With the help of \u201cbrothers\u201d my reputation was shot both locally in our city and nationally. I was without a job and without friends. Every attempt to extract ourselves from the cave failed.<\/p>\n And so, Jenny \u2013 my wife \u2013 and I learned to sit before the Lord and to wait. In that time I began to ask, \u201cGod, what was that all about?\u201d<\/p>\n And he began to answer, \u201cDavid, have I changed?\u201d \u2013 \u201cNo Lord, you haven\u2019t changed\u201d \u2013 \u201cDavid, has human nature changed?\u201d \u2013 \u201cNo Lord, human nature hasn\u2019t changed\u201d \u2013 \u201cWell then, neither has my controversy with my people changed\u201d.<\/p>\n That was the key that unlocked the book.<\/p>\n I began to see that the perennial controversy God had with his Old Testament church was their worship of idols\u2014and so too with his New Testament church, with us!<\/p>\n This was why the pastors\u2019 prayer and unity movement that was making great strides across our nation and many cities of the world hit the wall in the late 1990s. It was why the Shepherding Movement had failed and the Charismatic Renewal and the Prophetic Movement and Apostolic Movement after 40 years had all gone to seed.<\/p>\n God\u2019s people are beholden to institutionalized and thus legitimized idolatries that ultimately resist the move of God. These are false value systems that undergird our traditional denominational divisions, including our congregational and pastoral structures. The book seeks to penetrate these issues and provide a way out.<\/p>\n How is your book different from the many other books on the same subject of critiquing contemporary church practices?<\/strong><\/p>\n David Orton: While it addresses church practices and structures it shows how these are merely the institutionalized expressions of a private and personal idolatry, particularly in the hearts of its leaders. To tackle \u201cchurch practices\u201d without first tackling the \u201cinner motivations and values\u201d that created them is self-defeating.<\/p>\n And so, the book is not so much focused on the technology of new church paradigms as it is on the technology of the heart.<\/p>\n Give us two or three insights from the book that would be helpful to Christians.<\/strong><\/p>\n David Orton:<\/p>\n # 1. Our Working Definition of Idolatry.<\/strong><\/p>\n For our purpose, we use this working definition of idolatry: Idolatry is the feeling of well-being gained from my relationship to a created thing, either material or non-material.<\/em><\/p>\n There is one sure test that exposes our own idolatry. It is this question: \u201cFrom where do I draw my sense of well-being?\u201d\u00a0 This means anything has the potential to be an idol \u2013 a person, possession, position, or even a perception \u2013 our own self-image, or even a thought-process through which we rationalize or justify ourselves. Anything that gives me a sense of identity \u2013 a feeling of significance in my world, and therefore, a feeling of power.<\/p>\n # 2. Confusing the Goal<\/em> with the Prize.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n As a spiritual Olympian the apostle declares,<\/p>\n \u201c\u2026one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal<\/em><\/strong> to win the prize<\/em><\/strong>\u2026.\u201d\u00a0 (Phil.3: 12-14)<\/p>\n A stirring analogy.\u00a0 It inspires us to press through our pain to achieve great things for God.<\/p>\n But there is a difference between reaching the goal<\/em>, and receiving the prize<\/em>.\u00a0 Whoever reaches the goal, crossing the finish line as a winner, automatically receives the prize.\u00a0 As Paul said, \u201cI press on toward the goal<\/em> to win the prize<\/em>\u201d. On seeing the prizewinner\u2019s dais it is not a smart athlete who cuts out of the race, thinking, \u201cWow \u2013 the prize, all I have to is cut across the field \u2013 and go get it!\u201d And yet, tragically, this is exactly what the church has done.<\/p>\n Let me explain.\u00a0 Because the Western church has lost sight of the goal, taking short cuts to get the prize, she has been disqualified. Paul warned,\u00a0 \u201cRun in such a way as to get the prize<\/em>\u2026so that\u2026you will not be disqualified\u2026\u201d (1 Cor 9:24-27).\u00a0 In fact, the Western church\u2019s goal<\/em> has become the prize<\/em>.<\/p>\n We have replaced Christ as the goal with the prize of missional effectiveness.<\/p>\n # 3. New Paradigms \u2013 Old Problems: Pouring Old Wine into New Wineskins.<\/strong><\/p>\n Jesus said, \u201cYou don\u2019t put new wine into old wineskins\u201d. But what we are doing is putting old wine into new wineskins! Let me explain. The issue is one of spirit<\/em> and structure<\/em>. The wineskin exists for the wine \u2013 not the other way around! Therefore, new wineskins should only be created for new wine \u2013 new paradigms, therefore, should come out of a new spirit.\u00a0 So very simple!\u00a0 But, we get it all wrong.\u00a0 We put all our energy into producing new wineskins, new models and new structures. We import the latest church growth and leadership formulas, thinking they will produce the new wine of life and growth when all-the-while, according to Jesus, new structures come out of a new spirit.<\/p>\n We know that new wine is a symbol of the Holy Spirit.\u00a0 But, what about old wine? Surely it is the opposite \u2013 symbolizing the world spirit.<\/p>\n Paul says that, \u201cWe have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us\u201d (1 Cor 2:12 NIV, emphasis mine).<\/p>\n If drinking the new wine of the Spirit enables us to \u201cunderstand what God has freely given\u201d, the old wine of the world spirit does the opposite. It numbs our spiritual understanding and highlights only what the world can give. It is an anti-Christ spirit, setting up value systems that displace God, putting confidence only in human ability.<\/p>\n What do you say to people who charge you with hating the church?<\/strong><\/p>\n David Orton: My love for God and his people is the very thing that constrains me to speak out.<\/p>\n And so, I don\u2019t hate the church, I just hate what we have done to it, in light of her destiny.<\/p>\n My calling and gift to the body is \u2013 to the best of my ability \u2013 to be true to God, to his nature and character. This demands a measure of prophetic probity. While none of us can claim the stature of a biblical prophet, the fact remains that as a prophet Jeremiah, for example, was to function as an \u201cassayer\u201d of metals, testing the hearts and ways of God\u2019s people. However, the measure is never the arbitrary dictates of any individual \u2013 for \u201cno prophecy is of private interpretation\u201d \u2013 the touchstone, rather, is God\u2019s own nature revealed in his own word. And so, his word is the prophetic touchstone to which we must return and this demands an interpretative community. I would be worried if I were the lone voice down this line. Nonetheless, the track record of the church\u2019s handling of prophetic voices is not positive. We still have much to learn in this regard.<\/p>\n My burden \u2013 and I believe of the Lord \u2013 in any prophetic confrontation is unto destiny. I am consumed with a vision of God\u2019s high call upon his people\u2014that they may be a demonstration to the nations of God\u2019s wisdom and ways.<\/p>\n See also Why I Love the Church: In Praise of God\u2019s Eternal Purpose<\/a><\/p>\n
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