{"id":1205,"date":"2017-05-22T06:57:56","date_gmt":"2017-05-21T20:57:56","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/hearthwitchdownunder\/?p=1205"},"modified":"2018-01-24T13:30:53","modified_gmt":"2018-01-24T03:30:53","slug":"do-you-have-a-source-for-that","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/hearthwitchdownunder\/2017\/05\/do-you-have-a-source-for-that.html","title":{"rendered":"Do You Have a Source for That?"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>One of the things that seems to create the most problems when discussing and debating things in the Pagan, especially online, communities is the modern vs ancient butting of heads that often occurs.\u00a0 Someone will post something that is ostensibly ancient and others will comment either that it is not historical or they will ask for proof that it is actually historical.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s when all the sparks fly and the feathers get ruffled.\u00a0 On both (or all) sides of the debate \u2013 or what most often turns into a full blown argument, complete with insults, assumptions, and base generalisations.<\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_1206\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-1206\" style=\"width: 600px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-1206\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/690\/2017\/05\/old-books-436498_960_720.jpg\" alt=\"Better hit the books before you make any statements about history!\" width=\"600\" height=\"316\"><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-1206\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Public domain via Pixabay.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<h2>Why the Sparks and Feathers?<\/h2>\n<p>It\u2019s an interesting phenomena, the way the discussion almost immediately descends into a chaotic deathfight, as soon as someone asks about the veracity of the original assertion.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve never encountered such a thing before, you are like to watch the whole thing with a significant amount of shock and confusion.<\/p>\n<p>Because often, there doesn\u2019t seem to be any reason for things to go so bad.\u00a0 A comment is made, a person asks a question or makes a statement and things explode.\u00a0 No reason, why does it happen?<\/p>\n<p>It comes down to previous experience. There are elements of the Pagan and related communities who have puritanical opinions regarding history \u2013 if it isn\u2019t historical (and cannot be proven such via archaeology or ancient literature) then it doesn\u2019t count.\u00a0 Modern beliefs, modern practices, modern adaptations, modern festivals.\u00a0 Basically anything modern doesn\u2019t belong in the religion or tradition.\u00a0 And it doesn\u2019t matter that we often all have individualised religions and traditions, because in their view it is my way or the highway.<\/p>\n<p>And so, if you experience this sort of fundamentalism within our communities, as soon as someone else pops up and asks anything about the veracity of somethings history, or makes comments to refute the historical accuracy of something \u2013 the assumption is made.\u00a0 This person is also one of those traditionalist fundamentalists.<\/p>\n<h2>Fundamentalism Creates Problems, So Do Assumptions<\/h2>\n<p>That\u2019s the whole problem right there. Encounters with Trad Fundies can be pretty horrible, they can get very nasty and when they attack someone who is relatively new to a religion it can drive those newbies away.<\/p>\n<p>The problem though is that the assumption that everyone who mentions history or asks for a source is also a Trad Fundy, and thus deserving of insults and attack creates just as much drama and problems as a real Trad Fundy can.<\/p>\n<p>I might be a bit biased though, having been the recipient of one of these attacks based on assumption of my intent.\u00a0 I came across a thread on Facebook about one of Hekates festivals, someone asked if it is ancient and I said it wasn\u2019t.\u00a0 I made no judgement on the festival, no judgement on those who celebrate it, no judgement on anything or anyone.\u00a0 In fact I even said that modern festivals can be great \u2013 but it wasn\u2019t good enough.<\/p>\n<p>It was an interesting and somewhat confusing experience, to be accused of hating all modern things, to be told how horrible and awful I was for hating modern festivals.\u00a0 When I happen to actually celebrate several modern festivals \u2013 including ones I have created for my own self, specifically for my region here in Australia.\u00a0 Totally modern, completely unique.\u00a0 But, I hate modern festivals.\u00a0 Interesting.<\/p>\n<h2>Why Do We Care About History?<\/h2>\n<p>There are several levels in which we might care about history when it comes to our religions.\u00a0 Obviously, there are some who care about it so deeply they can barely accept the existence of the modern world around them.\u00a0 Their focus is on living the history they love so much. Most Pagans are not like that, no not even the Recons and Traditionalists! But for people like me, the concern is about truth and facts.<\/p>\n<p>I am sure I have mentioned my derision for the spread of various misconceptions and outright lies within the Pagan and related communities.\u00a0 And therein lies my little problem, my own little bubble of fundamentalism.\u00a0 I hate those misconceptions so much that I might, occasionally, be a little abrupt when it comes to refuting them.\u00a0 But generally speaking (and certainly in the example above) I merely make a statement and point out that other than the lie about history, the fact that it isn\u2019t ancient is actually irrelevant.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s it right there.\u00a0 It\u2019s all about the lie, the spread of misinformation.\u00a0 Of course there are certain things in history that mean more than that, to me, personally \u2013 but that has nothing to do with such things.\u00a0 When I make statements about something being historically inaccurate, I am only doing so to get rid of the lie \u2013 I am not making a judgement on the thing being discussed.\u00a0 And if I ask for a source, I am often asking so I can look for it and research it and learn about it.\u00a0 Not because I don\u2019t trust the persons information \u2013 but because if I choose to write about it elsewhere, those reading my words may not trust me!<\/p>\n<h2>Conclusions<\/h2>\n<p>I guess there are several conclusions that can be made from this brief post.\u00a0 First, if you are going to make assertions about the history of something you should probably have some sources to back you up \u2013 and no, random blog post that doesn\u2019t share its sources doesn\u2019t count.\u00a0 Sorry.<\/p>\n<p>Second, don\u2019t make assumptions about a persons intent \u2013 especially assumptions based upon the behaviour of someone else in the past.<\/p>\n<p>Third, when commenting about history, especially when refuting someone else, be sure to clarify your intent as much as you can.\u00a0 It won\u2019t always work, but it can head off most of the arguments, most of the time.<\/p>\n<p>Fourth, sometimes no one wants to know the truth.\u00a0 They are happy thinking that what they know is true, and while it can be hard to let misinformation just sit there all happy like that \u2013 sometimes we really need to just keep our damn mouths shut (or fingers off the keyboard).<\/p>\n<p>Lastly, it\u2019s really easy to turn a simple discussion into an argument \u2013 especially if you let your emotions into it.\u00a0 Many times, when we think someone is being obtuse and perhaps fundamentalist in their arguments, it is actually our emotions clouding the issue and they aren\u2019t doing anything \u201cwrong\u201d at all.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Someone will post something that is ostensibly ancient and others will comment either that it is not historical or they will ask for proof that it is actually historical.  And that&#8217;s when all the sparks fly and the feathers get ruffled.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2764,"featured_media":1206,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[42,11],"tags":[18,34,31,20,32,25],"class_list":["post-1205","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-general","category-pagan-community","tag-debates","tag-history","tag-misconceptions","tag-opinion","tag-paganism","tag-religion"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Do You Have a Source for That?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Someone will post something that is ostensibly ancient and others will comment either that it is not historical or they will ask for proof that it is actually historical. 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