Unlike John Beckett, I think I have used the word \u201cliteral\u201d in reference to the Gods<\/a>, but I am not sure I have used \u201cdistinct\u201d before.<\/p>\nHalsteads post is a bit of a mixed bag for a polytheist like me, and certainly many others, to read.\u00a0 On the one hand he makes some rather fascinating points about various things, and I can\u2019t deny that I enjoy apples being brought into the discussion again.\u00a0 On the other hand, he makes leaps and assumptions that are not only disappointing but are also a touch insulting on certain levels.<\/p>\n
The main point of his post was regarding our use of the word \u201cindependent\u201d in reference to our Gods, and how, in his view, this actually equals being disconnected.<\/p>\npublic domain via Pixabay<\/figcaption><\/figure>\nYou Keep Using That Word<\/h2>\n\u201cThe assumption of some\u00a0polytheists seems to be that for a thing to be \u201creal\u201d it must exist in some reified form disconnected from every other thing.\u201d<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n
Perhaps the biggest problem with Johns post, is his conflation of independence with disconnectedness.\u00a0 It rests on some assumptions and leaps about what exactly we might mean when we use the word \u201cindependent\u201d.\u00a0 He seems to be inferring that we believe our Gods are completely and utterly separate \u2013 to the point that They have no connection to us or the world in which we reside and They rule over.<\/p>\n
But this is a rather extremist view of the idea of independence.\u00a0 Independence, in so many cases \u2013 Pagan or not \u2013 often refers not to being disconnected, but instead to not being reliant on another thing for your very existence, survival or, in human terms, happiness.\u00a0 To say the Gods are independent is to say They do not rely on our existence for Their existence.\u00a0 They are sovereign beings, They are not ruled by us, They are not dependent on us.\u00a0 If we humans destroy ourselves \u2013 the Gods will still be here.<\/p>\n
This is opposed to the views some people hold \u2013 that the Gods do not exist independently of us and without our existence They would cease to exist.\u00a0 This can mean many things.\u00a0 Some people believe that the Gods are created by us through the vast power of mass belief \u2013 They are basically tulpas I suppose \u2013 if we cease to believe, They cease to exist.\u00a0 As an extension or alternative some believe that the Gods (however They came to exist at first) rely on us for Their very survival, feeding off our belief in Them, our worship of Them and what we offer Them*.\u00a0 Still others believe that the Gods only exist in our minds \u2013 which doesn\u2019t necessarily imply They are not real \u2013 and if we cease to think about Them, then of course They cease to exist.<\/p>\n
For many of us who use the word \u201cindependent\u201d to describe our Gods, we are not using it as synonymous with disconnected, rather it is antonymous with dependent.\u00a0 Our Gods are not dependent on us, nor anything about us.\u00a0 They exist outside of us, without us, independently.\u00a0 Even if you follow the belief that we did create Them through some kind of massive thoughtform \u2013 Their creation was accomplished long ago and we have moved far past that stage. They have or have gained Their own Will and we haven\u2019t the power to uncreate Them, no matter what we might do or not do.<\/p>\n
Connection and Dependence Don\u2019t Equal UnRealness<\/h2>\n\u201cThe point is that these relationships, this interconnectedness, don\u2019t make the apple unreal.\u00a0 In fact, these connections are the very things that make the apple real.\u201d\u00a0<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n
Here John is right, but he is wrong as well.\u00a0 It is true that just because something is connected and dependent that doesn\u2019t mean it is not real.\u00a0 But he is wrong that we polytheists believe otherwise.\u00a0 This is actually quite the strawman \u2013 we believe the Gods are independent, he decides independent means disconnected, and also decides we believe that a thing that is dependent on other things and is connected to other things is a thing that is not real and literal.<\/p>\n
This is such an interesting leap that he has made.\u00a0 One can merely look at belief in Gaia Herself to see that independence is not the same as disconnectedness and that connection doesn\u2019t equal being not real.\u00a0 She is the earth upon which we reside, She is connected to us in ways that are beyond a single blog posts ability to describe.\u00a0 Gaia is connected to everything we touch, smell, hear, taste, see and know.\u00a0 We are so deeply connected to Her that we don\u2019t even realise we are connected to Her.<\/p>\n
But She is still real, literal, distinct and independent.\u00a0 She exists without us, She does not depend on us \u2013 indeed She would likely be better off without us!<\/p>\n
I\u2019m Not Trying to Re-Enchant the World<\/h2>\n\u201cIf we are to reenchant the world, it won\u2019t be (re-)populating it with individual gods and spirits in nature.\u00a0 The disenchantment of the world happened, not when we stopped seeing gods and spirits in nature, but when we stopped seeing our essential connection to nature.\u00a0 Personifying rivers and trees with dryads is not going to accomplish this.\u201d<\/i><\/p><\/blockquote>\n
In this John is making the same mistake so many Pagans make, assuming that polytheism in its various forms is one of those earth-centric nature religions that seemingly make up the bulk of modern Paganism.\u00a0 But, for many of us, that is not what we are about.\u00a0 We who are deemed Hard Polytheists are mostly not nature and earth-centric, instead we are deity-centric.<\/p>\n
I am not trying to re-enchant the world, whatever that means.\u00a0 I am trying to enchant myself, and perhaps help others enchant themselves.\u00a0 I am trying to connect to my Gods.\u00a0 By extension this helps me connect to the earth and world around, but also the people around me, the animals, the ideas and ideals, and so much more.\u00a0 Even in worship of Gaia, Her surface is merely one part of Her and it is not necessarily the most important part of Her.<\/p>\n
This Isn\u2019t Theist vs Atheist Semantics<\/h2>\n When we describe the Gods as \u201creal independent beings\u201d we aren\u2019t necessarily always doing this in response to atheistic or non-theistic beliefs and assertions.\u00a0 On the contrary, there are many theistic beliefs wherein the Gods are not independent, even though They are real.\u00a0 So called soft-Polytheism for example would have, depending on the system, all Gods being mere aspects of a single deity \u2013 thus not independent of each other at all.\u00a0 But I also described three systems above that have the Gods dependent on humans for Their existence, and they are all three of them theistic beliefs.\u00a0 One of them is also a non-theistic belief.<\/p>\n
Unfortunately it seems like John has maybe become stuck inside the kerfuffels of the past few years, seeing the \u201creal independent beings\u201d phrase as being a direct attack on non-theistic Pagan beliefs.\u00a0 But it\u2019s not, sure sometimes it is said in that way but the truth is it has a much deeper reason for being said.\u00a0 Because we mean it, because it is true.<\/p>\n
Our Gods are real.\u00a0 They are also independent.\u00a0 They are also literal, distinct, ancient, self-aware, powerful and so much more.<\/p>\n
What They aren\u2019t is a weapon in a petty little war on the internet.\u00a0 When we say They are real and independent, we say it because we mean it \u2013 not so we can win a war of words.<\/p>\n
\u00a0<\/p>\n
*If you\u2019re interested in reading fictional explorations of such deities, I suggest Raymond E Feists Midkemia books and David Eddings Tamuli trilogy, both of which have brief encounters with \u201cdead\u201d Gods, and in the Tamuli actually includes a Goddess getting weaker and sicker as Her worshippers are slaughtered.\u00a0 It\u2019s a fascinating concept, but even in these books, a dead God isn\u2019t exactly fully dead.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" To say the Gods are independent is to say They do not rely on our existence for Their existence. They are sovereign beings, They are not ruled by us, They are not dependent on us. If we humans destroy ourselves – the Gods will still be here.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2764,"featured_media":1222,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[12,11],"tags":[17,18,22,31,40,20,32,29,25],"class_list":["post-1220","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pagan-blogosphere","category-pagan-community","tag-blogosphere","tag-debates","tag-deities","tag-misconceptions","tag-nature-of-the-gods","tag-opinion","tag-paganism","tag-polytheism","tag-religion"],"yoast_head":"\n
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