{"id":12505,"date":"2019-01-19T14:39:35","date_gmt":"2019-01-19T20:39:35","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/?p=12505"},"modified":"2019-01-19T14:39:35","modified_gmt":"2019-01-19T20:39:35","slug":"once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html","title":{"rendered":"Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-4416\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/533\/2016\/04\/Warsaw_Negotiation_Round_Senate_of_Poland_2014_01.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\"><\/p>\n<p>Reports are swirling that Trump is planning on proposing a DACA\/TPS extension in exchange for a wall.\u00a0 Mostly this is twitter chatter, but here\u2019s what the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.axios.com\/trump-expected-immigration-compromise-speech-border-wall-a8713395-d085-4921-a0c8-699872dcd534.html?stream=top-stories&amp;utm_source=twitter&amp;utm_medium=social&amp;utm_campaign=limstream\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">political news site Axios has to say:<\/a><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"StoryBody__paragraph--2-Doz\">President Trump plans to use remarks from the Diplomatic Reception Room on Saturday afternoon to propose a notable immigration compromise, according to sources familiar with the speech.<\/p>\n<p class=\"StoryBody__paragraph--2-Doz\"><strong>Details:\u00a0<\/strong>The offer is expected to include Trump\u2019s $5.7 billion demand for wall money in exchange for the BRIDGE Act \u2014 which would extend protections for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) \u2014 and also legislation to extend the legal status of Temporary Protected Status (TPS) holders, according to a source with direct knowledge.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p>Twitter-Democrats say this is a nonstarter.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s Jake Tapper quoting nonspecified someones:<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">3\/\u201c\u2026 The President must agree to re-open government and join Democrats to negotiate on border security measures that work and not an expensive and ineffective wall that the President promised Mexico would pay for.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u2014 Jake Tapper <\/p>\n<p>And here\u2019s a random twitter reply to a separate tweet, which is representative\u00a0of much of what I\u2019m seeing:<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"500\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"ca\" dir=\"ltr\">Temporary protection, permanent wall.<\/p>\n<p>\u2014 Janene (@MTJanene) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/MTJanene\/status\/1086669506531885056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">January 19, 2019<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>which is ironic because it\u2019s the same complaints as the pro-wall-ites have, only reversed.<\/p>\n<p>A wall is a more-or-less permanent (or at least long-term) hinderance to border-crossing.\u00a0 Yes, it is not perfect.\u00a0 Walls can be tunnelled under or climbed-over or broken-through.\u00a0 And I\u2019d prefer that our immigration-enforcement strategy be centered around workplace enforcement (E-Verify to catch falsified IDs, Social Security no-match letters to catch stolen Social Security numbers, and pursuit of employers paying under-the-table), since this would catch visa-overstayers as well.<\/p>\n<p>But the drone-based border enforcement that Democrats are yammering about as more modern than an outdated wall?\u00a0 All it takes is for a Democratic president to take office and decide that, as a matter of spending priorities, he\/she will shut this down and take it offline, and it\u2019s done.\u00a0 The \u201cborder security measures that work\u201d that the Democrats are promising us they full support are also \u201cborder security measures that can be shut down at any time.\u201d\u00a0 Can Democrats \u2014 and especially an unknown future Democratic president \u2014 be trusted to carry out enforcement measures they have only agreed to as a carrot to get Republican agreement of the amnesty they want?\u00a0 (Besides which, their \u201cmodern border security measures\u201d are all about identifying people after they have already crossed the border.\u00a0 If we don\u2019t have effective mechanisms to actually remove them back to the other side of the border, but instead give them court dates and removable ankle bracelets, then they accomplish nothing.\u00a0 Oh, and, yes, the studies claiming effectiveness of those bracelets are only during the period while people are awaiting hearings and think they have a good shot; once the individual has been issued a deportation order or has reason to believe the case will fail, the effectiveness drops considerably.)<\/p>\n<p>After all, responses like this certainly indicate they understand the issue of trust, just in reverse.\u00a0 They don\u2019t trust that the GOP, during the three-year period that the BRIDGE Act, as previously constituted, includes, will negotiate in good faith on further measures.\u00a0 But, understanding that trust matters, can they not see that the other party cares about trust as well?<\/p>\n<p>Which is, again, why <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/what-if-trump-doesnt-care.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">in a prior post<\/a> I wrote about the need for confidence-building measures, because <strong>neither side trusts each other<\/strong>.\u00a0 Without establishing trust, you simply can\u2019t have these ambitious \u201ccomprehensive reform\u201d packages that we\u2019re being told are the solution to the immigration issue, because they have so many contingent elements that require that the parties be trusted by each other and be worthy of that trust.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s another way of looking at this:\u00a0 you know how in places like Japan business is done as a series of drinking nights, where the prospective vendor goes out with the prospective client?\u00a0 (Here\u2019s a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.independent.co.uk\/news\/business\/news\/japan-drinking-business-culture-why-getting-drunk-is-so-important-a7736946.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">sample article describing the practice<\/a>.\u00a0 You can find the same on google.)\u00a0 Terrible way of doing business, from a U.S. perspective.\u00a0 But it\u2019s because their way of doing business is to build bonds, to establish trust between the parties.\u00a0 Then, when it comes time to actually signing the contract, unlike an American business deal, they do not nail down every single possible contingency and identify courses of action and assign blame for any deviation from what\u2019s expected.\u00a0 Due to the evolution of US culture (not just business culture, but more broadly, including our ever-celebrated multiculturalism and immigration), that doesn\u2019t exist in the United States.\u00a0 During the last \u201cGang of\u201d proposed immigration deal, the sites I read on immigration spent a lot of time looking through the law to find all of the loopholes included \u2014 everything from a 10-year clock on E-Verify that asserted that if it hadn\u2019t been implemented or was stuck in the courts,\u00a0amnestees get citizenship regardless; to minimalist requirements such as enrollment in some sort of English class, attendance or actual English-learning not required; criminal records waivable; application fees waivable, etc.\u00a0 Presumably pro-immigration-expansion sites did the same thing in reverse; I couldn\u2019t say.<\/p>\n<p><strong>I simply don\u2019t believe a Grand Bargain is a workable solution.<\/strong>\u00a0 I think it has to take the form of incremental measures, especially items that each party believes is the right thing to do, even if they\u2019d rather hold on to it as a bargaining chip.\u00a0 It seems to me that immigration enforcement-ists generally believe that in principle, amnesty is fine and even appropriate for long-time residents, but don\u2019t want to go about it in a way that means that amnesty is just something that happens every couple decades, nor do they want to sacrifice their bargaining chip.\u00a0 Same with amnesty-supporters who might believe we should cut down on illegal immigration in the future, but don\u2019t want to lose their own bargaining chip.\u00a0 But I don\u2019t believe a Grand Bargain would work to build trust, but is likely to worsen trust further, as each side sees ways that it\u2019s gone wrong in their view.<\/p>\n<p>And now I will miss the actual goings-on as I leave to do grocery-shopping instead.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Image:\u00a0\u00a0https:\/\/commons.wikimedia.org\/wiki\/File%3AWarsaw_Negotiation_Round_Senate_of_Poland_2014_01.JPG; By Micha\u0142 J\u00f3zefaciuk (Senat Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej) [CC BY-SA 3.0 pl (http:\/\/creativecommons.org\/licenses\/by-sa\/3.0\/pl\/deed.en)], via Wikimedia Commons<\/p>\n<\/blockquote><\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Reports are swirling that Trump is planning on proposing a DACA\/TPS extension in exchange for a wall.\u00a0 Mostly this is twitter chatter, but here\u2019s what the political news site Axios has to say: President Trump plans to use remarks from the Diplomatic Reception Room on Saturday afternoon to propose a notable immigration compromise, according to [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2209,"featured_media":4416,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[742,463,325],"class_list":["post-12505","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-daca","tag-illegal-immigration","tag-trump"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Reports are swirling that Trump is planning on proposing a DACA\/TPS extension in exchange for a wall.\u00a0 Mostly this is twitter chatter, but here&#039;s what the\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Reports are swirling that Trump is planning on proposing a DACA\/TPS extension in exchange for a wall.\u00a0 Mostly this is twitter chatter, but here&#039;s what the\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Jane the Actuary\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2019-01-19T20:39:35+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/533\/2016\/04\/Warsaw_Negotiation_Round_Senate_of_Poland_2014_01.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"768\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"512\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Jane the Actuary\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Jane the Actuary\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"5 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html\",\"name\":\"Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2019-01-19T20:39:35+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2019-01-19T20:39:35+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#\/schema\/person\/ed9b99e0bd58c5eeeebae6b82fa5a77a\"},\"description\":\"Reports are swirling that Trump is planning on proposing a DACA\/TPS extension in exchange for a wall.\u00a0 Mostly this is twitter chatter, but here's what the\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/\",\"name\":\"Jane the Actuary\",\"description\":\"\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#\/schema\/person\/ed9b99e0bd58c5eeeebae6b82fa5a77a\",\"name\":\"Jane the Actuary\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/8d6a493d380e87d49599d5487691c9fc?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/8d6a493d380e87d49599d5487691c9fc?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Jane the Actuary\"},\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/author\/actuaryjane\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust","description":"Reports are swirling that Trump is planning on proposing a DACA\/TPS extension in exchange for a wall.\u00a0 Mostly this is twitter chatter, but here's what the","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust","og_description":"Reports are swirling that Trump is planning on proposing a DACA\/TPS extension in exchange for a wall.\u00a0 Mostly this is twitter chatter, but here's what the","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html","og_site_name":"Jane the Actuary","article_published_time":"2019-01-19T20:39:35+00:00","og_image":[{"width":768,"height":512,"url":"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/533\/2016\/04\/Warsaw_Negotiation_Round_Senate_of_Poland_2014_01.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Jane the Actuary","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Jane the Actuary","Est. reading time":"5 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html","name":"Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#website"},"datePublished":"2019-01-19T20:39:35+00:00","dateModified":"2019-01-19T20:39:35+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#\/schema\/person\/ed9b99e0bd58c5eeeebae6b82fa5a77a"},"description":"Reports are swirling that Trump is planning on proposing a DACA\/TPS extension in exchange for a wall.\u00a0 Mostly this is twitter chatter, but here's what the","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/2019\/01\/once-more-from-the-top-walls-negotiations-and-trust.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Once more from the top: walls, negotiations, and trust"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/","name":"Jane the Actuary","description":"","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#\/schema\/person\/ed9b99e0bd58c5eeeebae6b82fa5a77a","name":"Jane the Actuary","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/8d6a493d380e87d49599d5487691c9fc?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/8d6a493d380e87d49599d5487691c9fc?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Jane the Actuary"},"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/author\/actuaryjane"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12505","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2209"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=12505"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12505\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4416"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=12505"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=12505"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/janetheactuary\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=12505"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}