{"id":1426,"date":"2006-06-16T04:55:02","date_gmt":"2006-06-16T09:55:02","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/community\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/"},"modified":"2006-06-16T04:55:02","modified_gmt":"2006-06-16T09:55:02","slug":"this-has-been-a-stimulating","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/","title":{"rendered":"This has been a stimulating"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>This has been a stimulating week for me in looking at this age-old question: Was Mary perpetually virginal? Today I want to look at three pieces of biblical evidence on this question, sorting out what can be known from what can\u2019t be known, and then drawing a conclusion.<!--more|inline--><br>\nAs I mentioned Monday, even the magisterial Reformers seemed to believe that Mary was perpetually virgin. Calvin and Luther both called Helvidius a fool, and they learned their polemical barbs from a cast of characters like Jerome, and many, many of their followers continued this line of thinking. Francis Pieper, in his <em>Christian Dogmatics<\/em>(HT: John Glover), the standard Lutheran theology, offers what I\u2019ll take to be a warning for each one of us \u2014 Helvidians, Epiphanians, and Hieronymians. Here it is: \u201cBut we must emphatically object when those who assume that Jesus had natural brothers pride themselves on their more delicate \u2018exegetical conscience\u2019 and disparage those who hold the opposite view. They certainly cannot prove their view from Scripture\u2026 . Decisive proof cannot be supplied even from the passages that mention \u2018brothers\u2019 and \u2018sisters\u2019 of Christ.\u201d (308-309).<br>\nSo, where do we go?<br>\nFirst, I suggest we go to the most significant piece of evidence: that the NT says <em>Jesus had brothers and sisters<\/em>. Now this language is used at:<br>\n1. Mark 3:31-35: \u201cHis mother and his brothers.\u201d<br>\n2. Mark 6:1-6: \u201cIs this not the \u2018son of Mary\u2019 and his brothers Yakov, Yosef, Yehudah, and Shimeon? Are not his sisters here with us?\u201d<br>\n3. John 2:12: \u201che went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples\u201d. (Sisters stay back in Nazareth?)<br>\n4. John 7:3: \u201cHis brothers said to him\u2026\u201d 7:5: \u201cFor even his own brothers did not believe in him.\u201d<br>\n5. Galatians 1:19: \u201csave only James, the Lord\u2019s brother.\u201d<br>\n6. Acts 1:14: Mary \u201cand with his brothers.\u201d<br>\nOn balance, if one is dealing with probabilities, the terms \u201cbrother\u201d and \u201csister\u201d would mean \u201cblood-brother\u201d or \u201cblood-sister\u201d unless there is evidence to the contrary. But, and this is frequently unnoticed by some interpreters of words, when dealing with individual words we can\u2019t take the sweep of evidence (probability) and apply it to an individual case. What probability statistics would tell us that is that, if we had 100 pieces of evidence, the vast majority would mean \u201cbrother.\u201d It does not mean that a singular case will mean \u201cblood-brother\u201d because most of the instances mean \u201cblood-brother.\u201d I hope you see this and know this fundamental principle of interpretation, and one that is regularly (oh-so regularly) violated.<br>\nNow yet one more consideration: others proceed in a manner that says \u201csince brother does not have to mean blood-brother, then it may not in this case, and so must not in this case.\u201d In other words, some demand certainty or necessity for \u201cblood-brother\u201d but do not demand certainty or necessity for \u201cstep-brother\u201d or \u201crelative.\u201d Not fair. We do not do exegesis by demanding necessity. We have to weigh the evidence, sort out the problems, and render judgment as best as possible \u2014 indeed, in full conversation with the Church with (here I speak as a Protestant) emphasis on what the Bible says.<br>\nSo, here\u2019s my conclusion on \u201cbrothers and sisters\u201d: I would say this term probably means blood-brother or blood-sister, but I can\u2019t say for sure in these particular instances. There is, however, not a shred of evidence that it means \u201crelatives\u201d, unless one believes that one of the Marys of John 19 is Joseph\u2019s sister who has kids named Yakov and Yosef, and those kids are the same as Mark 6:3\u2019s Yakov and Yosef. I, for one, do not think this view impossible;  but I think it very difficult to demonstrate that these two sets of names are the same kids and that we\u2019ve got one Mary in 6:3 and that the mother of those two boys is a different Mary. I don\u2019t say \u201cimpossible,\u201d I say it is stretching it for me.<br>\nGeneral procedural question: we can\u2019t judge any piece of evidence, like \u201cbrothers and sisters,\u201d until we\u2019ve looked at all the considerations, and then we can combine our observations and suggestions into a more workable solution.<br>\nSecond, I do think \u201c<em>firstborn<\/em>\u201d in Luke 2:7 is a little more serious than some have given it. It is true that \u201cfirstborn,\u201d as Jerome spewed forth, need not require more siblings to make \u201cfirstborn\u201d really mean \u201cfirstborn\u201d. But, and I think we need to think about this fairly, is the \u201cfirstborn\u201d of Luke 2:7 \u201cJoseph\u2019s\u201d firstborn? If not, and some would say this because Luke 2:7 says \u201cher firstborn,\u201d making it possible that it was her firstborn but not Joseph\u2019s firstborn (Epiphanius) \u2026\u2026. if Jesus is not Joseph\u2019s firstborn, then we have a major problem in the geneaology of Matthew\u2019s Gospel for there Joseph is the descendant of David and his Davidic connection renders Jesus a Davidic ancestor. If Joseph already had a firstborn from a previous marriage (Epiphanius), then that first son would have to be given the throne of David. Now, Jerome gets out of this one: in his view, brothers are cousins and Jesus is both Mary\u2019s and Joseph\u2019s firstborn. I\u2019ve not heard many speak about this \u201cfirstborn\u201d element, so I put this out for consideration, too.<br>\nSo, where are we here: we have eliminated Epiphanius. So it seems to me. Helvidius and Jerome are possible, with the latter less probable than the former (as I see the evidence).<br>\nThird, what about \u201che had no union with her <em>until<\/em> she gave birth\u201d in Matthew 1:25. This expression in Greek, <em>heos hou<\/em>, often implies a changed condition when the condition is met. (That is, \u201che did not know before birth but did after the birth.\u201d) There are times when that condition is changed, but there are some instances when the condition does not change (thus, he would not have then known her). It is possible, then, from grammar, to argue that Joseph did not know her before the birth but did after the birth, and it is possible from grammar to argue that Joseph did not know her before birth and neither did he after the birth. It is not air-tight; Roman Catholics and Protestants simply need to admit this.<br>\nSome observations:<br>\nThe OL and OS (Latin and Syriac manuscripts) omit this line. Why? Did they find it difficult for their theology and therefore omit it (harder reading)? Or did they not know it? Fr. R.E. Brown sees these two mss traditions as intentionally dropping it because it did not support perpetual virginity which those traditon believed in. In which case, we have early evidence of how this text was understood: as supporting sexual relations after Jesus\u2019 birth. We should not give too much weight to these textual variants.<br>\nSome scholars contend that this expression (\u201cuntil\u201d), in a Jewish world, would not necessarily imply a changed condition after the conditions were met (in other words, it could support perpetual virginity). But, the text is in Greek and we should be looking to Greek precedent.<br>\nBefore leaving this, I will add that I do think some early theologians, in their zeal for sexual celibacy and finding precedent and anchors, no doubt were led to exaggerate and pontificate. I see some of this in Jerome; I\u2019ve seen it in others. I do not mean by this to suggest that celibacy was always a weird thing; it is clearly a vocation for some according to Jesus in Matthew 19:10-12. But, the zeal for celibacy and the theology that celibacy was more pure than marriage, which Jerome believed, influenced some of the exegesis and some of the theology. (HT: RJS for regularly putting this on the table this week; but HT: Dennis Martin for his warning that we need to be careful what we say about sexuality)<br>\nSo, where are we? <em>The NT evidence is not air-tight; anyone who thinks it is overstates the evidence. <\/em>I think \u201cbrother\u201d and \u201cfirstborn,\u201d when combined, lean in the direction of marital relations of Mary and Joseph. I don\u2019t think \u201cuntil,\u201d on its own, helps much. If combined with \u201cbrother\u201d meaning \u201cblood-brothers\u201d and \u201cfirstborn\u201d of Joseph being an issue, then \u201cuntil\u201d certainly would mean what Helvidius said it meant.<br>\nThe only reason this debate arose is because this evidence is not air-tight.<br>\nHowever, Tertullian and Victorinus, whom I\u2019ve not seen in this regard (and Jerome denies Helvidius\u2019 claim to use Victorinus), and Helvidius each show that there were those in the early churches who did think Mary and Joseph had relations and that the \u201cbrothers and sisters\u201d of Jesus were indeed blood-brothers and blood-sisters. It did not become the view of the Church, and I have respect for that and it influences my reading of the NT (but is not determinative, else I\u2019d not be a Protestant).<br>\nProtestants should not be bothered if Mary and Joseph chose to remain virginal. Their decision would not be an attack on marriage or on sexuality. It would be a sacred vow of celibacy on their part, not because of their sainthood but because (and here we are guessing) they sensed an overwhelming awe at the majesty of what God chose Mary to do. Her body, in other words, became a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit for both of them. That\u2019s how I\u2019d see it from that perspective. I don\u2019t think that view, however, is what we find in the NT.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>This has been a stimulating week for me in looking at this age-old question: Was Mary perpetually virginal? Today I want to look at three pieces of biblical evidence on this question, sorting out what can be known from what can\u2019t be known, and then drawing a conclusion.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":197,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1708],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1426","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-mary"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>This has been a stimulating<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"This has been a stimulating week for me in looking at this age-old question: Was Mary perpetually virginal? Today I want to look at three pieces of\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"This has been a stimulating\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"This has been a stimulating week for me in looking at this age-old question: Was Mary perpetually virginal? Today I want to look at three pieces of\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Jesus Creed\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2006-06-16T09:55:02+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Scot McKnight\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Scot McKnight\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"8 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/\",\"name\":\"This has been a stimulating\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2006-06-16T09:55:02+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2006-06-16T09:55:02+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252\"},\"description\":\"This has been a stimulating week for me in looking at this age-old question: Was Mary perpetually virginal? Today I want to look at three pieces of\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"This has been a stimulating\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/\",\"name\":\"Jesus Creed\",\"description\":\"Scot McKnight on Jesus and orthodox faith in the 21st century\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252\",\"name\":\"Scot McKnight\",\"description\":\"Scot McKnight is a recognized authority on the New Testament, early Christianity, and the historical Jesus. McKnight, author of more than fifty books, is the Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Lombard, IL.\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/author\/scotmcknight\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"This has been a stimulating","description":"This has been a stimulating week for me in looking at this age-old question: Was Mary perpetually virginal? Today I want to look at three pieces of","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"This has been a stimulating","og_description":"This has been a stimulating week for me in looking at this age-old question: Was Mary perpetually virginal? Today I want to look at three pieces of","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/","og_site_name":"Jesus Creed","article_published_time":"2006-06-16T09:55:02+00:00","author":"Scot McKnight","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Scot McKnight","Est. reading time":"8 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/","name":"This has been a stimulating","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website"},"datePublished":"2006-06-16T09:55:02+00:00","dateModified":"2006-06-16T09:55:02+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252"},"description":"This has been a stimulating week for me in looking at this age-old question: Was Mary perpetually virginal? Today I want to look at three pieces of","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2006\/06\/16\/this-has-been-a-stimulating\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"This has been a stimulating"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/","name":"Jesus Creed","description":"Scot McKnight on Jesus and orthodox faith in the 21st century","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252","name":"Scot McKnight","description":"Scot McKnight is a recognized authority on the New Testament, early Christianity, and the historical Jesus. McKnight, author of more than fifty books, is the Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Lombard, IL.","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/author\/scotmcknight\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1426","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/197"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1426"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1426\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1426"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1426"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1426"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}