{"id":18299,"date":"2011-07-14T00:13:42","date_gmt":"2011-07-14T05:13:42","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/community\/jesuscreed\/?p=18299"},"modified":"2011-07-14T06:16:49","modified_gmt":"2011-07-14T11:16:49","slug":"how-to-talk-about-the-afterlife-if-you-must-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2011\/07\/14\/how-to-talk-about-the-afterlife-if-you-must-2\/","title":{"rendered":"How to Talk about the Afterlife (if you must) 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p><strong>Ten Theses to Guide Debate on the Afterlife<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><em>This post is by D. C. Cramer, who is a PhD student in religion  with an emphasis in theological ethics at Baylor University, a pastor in  the Missionary Church denomination, and a regular participant in the  Jesus Creed community. Part one can be read <a href=\"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/community\/jesuscreed\/2011\/07\/12\/how-to-talk-about-the-afterlife-if-you-must-1\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>here<\/strong><\/a>.<br>\n<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Where do you agree or disagree? <\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The following are some theses\u2014in no particular order\u2014that I believe  should help guide discussions of the afterlife, especially those debates  currently raging over universalism and hell. These thoughts are purely  my own (and even I\u2019m not sure what I think of all of them). By stating  these theses, I am <em>not<\/em> advocating or endorsing any of the views of the afterlife discussed.<\/p>\n<p>(6) <em>The practical differences between these views shouldn\u2019t be overestimated.<\/em> Whether an unbeliever suffers forever, is completely destroyed, or  suffers for a really long time, it is not a state of affairs that one  would desire. So if our evangelism is going to be predicated on the fate  of those who don\u2019t accept Christ (which I\u2019m not sure should be our  primary motivation, but that\u2019s another discussion), then there shouldn\u2019t  be a practical difference between the major evangelical views of the  afterlife. Even if one believes\u2014as universalists do\u2014that ultimately all  will be saved, one would still want to save people from all the  unnecessary suffering they would face in the penultimate afterlife. And  as Christians, we would hopefully want all to experience the fullness of  Kingdom living now, which should be motivation enough for evangelism  regardless of our views of the afterlife.<!--more--><\/p>\n<p>(7) <em>The theological differences between these views shouldn\u2019t be underestimated<\/em>.<em> <\/em>Most  of us believe that God loves everyone and that God is perfectly just.  But clearly, what one who believes in eternal conscious torment and one  who believes in ultimate universal reconciliation mean by terms like  \u201clove\u201d and \u201cjustice\u201d are going to radically differ. On the eternal  conscious torment view, one has to reconcile one\u2019s definition of love  and justice with the notion that God torments (or allows to be  tormented) unbelievers eternally (that is, after all, the very  definition of the term \u201ceternal conscious torment\u201d). Other views of God  necessarily follow from eternal conscious torment, for example, that God  doesn\u2019t ultimately get everything he desires: minimally, that all  should be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). Of course, one might say that  God desires some things more than he desires all to be saved, but then  that too is saying something about God and his character. On the  annihilationist view, one has to reconcile one\u2019s view of love and  justice with the notion that God destroys (or allows to cease existing)  unbelievers after death. One also has to deal with some of the same  theological ramifications as the eternal conscious torment view  discussed above. On the universalist view, one has to reconcile one\u2019s  definition of love and justice with the notion that God will give second  (and possibly third, fourth, fifth . . .) chances to those who die in  utter defiance toward God and utter hatred toward fellow human beings.  Even if these postmortem chances include much suffering (see (6) above),  this view is clearly working with a different notion of love and  justice than the other views. The question then becomes: Which notion of  love and justice is most consistent with the whole scope and tenor of  Scripture (as well as those nitty-gritty details of Scripture that the  exegetes deal with)?<\/p>\n<p>(8) <em>Each of these positions has both  subtle, scholarly articulations and shallow, popular descriptions; care  should be taken to distinguish the two.<\/em> It is always best to take on  the best form of an argument and try to refute it than to merely refute  popular forms of an argument. However, since popular forms are so,  well, <em>popular<\/em>, it is okay to discuss and refute those too, as  long as one specifies that in so doing one isn\u2019t taking on the best  version of the argument. So, if popular formulations of eternal  conscious torment suggest a sadistic view of God, it is okay to point  out the flaws in that view of God. And if popular formulations of  universalism suggest a lax view of God, it is okay to point out the  flaws in that view of God too. But the most subtle forms of eternal  conscious torment try to avoid divine sadism, and the most subtle forms  of universalism try to avoid divine laxity; and in debating these issues  eventually one will have to deal with these more sophisticated views  head on.<\/p>\n<p>(9) <em>We all have motivations for holding the views we  hold, but unless someone explicitly states his or her motivation for  holding a view, it is best to leave discussion of motivations out of it<\/em>.  Sure, some universalists probably grew up in oppressive fundamentalist  churches from which they are trying desperately to break away. Sure,  some who hold to eternal conscious torment can\u2019t stand the idea of  someday worshiping next to Osama bin Laden in heaven. But not everyone  who holds to these views does so for the same reasons or with the same  motivations. Speculating on one\u2019s motivations, then, is just another  form of the old <em>ad hominem<\/em> fallacy, and fallacies are generally best to avoid.<\/p>\n<p>(10) <em>None of these positions are clearly unorthodox or unevangelical<\/em>.  This may be the most controversial of these theses, but here me out:  This isn\u2019t to say that there hasn\u2019t been a dominate view in the  Christian tradition generally or the evangelical tradition more  specifically. But it is to say that (perhaps because one view has been  most often assumed) none of these views has been univocally ruled out by  the tradition. There have always coexisted minority views, and while  some particular denominations have settled on one view or another, the  major stream of Christianity has always allowed for some variance. And  even within evangelicalism, the story of historically competing views  may have been suppressed, but it is still there to be read. In short,  personal eschatology just hasn\u2019t been the focus or core of Christian  teaching and doctrine, and that\u2019s probably how it should be.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ten Theses to Guide Debate on the Afterlife This post is by D. C. Cramer, who is a PhD student in religion with an emphasis in theological ethics at Baylor University, a pastor in the Missionary Church denomination, and a regular participant in the Jesus Creed community. Part one can be read here. Where do [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":197,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-18299","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>How to Talk about the Afterlife (if you must) 2<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Ten Theses to Guide Debate on the Afterlife This post is by D. C. 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