{"id":5534,"date":"2009-04-29T14:49:09","date_gmt":"2009-04-29T19:49:09","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/community\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/"},"modified":"2009-04-29T14:49:09","modified_gmt":"2009-04-29T19:49:09","slug":"coming-conversations","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/","title":{"rendered":"Coming Conversations"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>We will begin this Friday and then next week two new conversations. One will be about Andrew Marin\u2019s new book about homosexuality and the Church, called <em><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0830836268?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=jescre-20&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0830836268\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Love Is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation With the Gay Community<\/a><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/www.assoc-amazon.com\/e\/ir?t=jescre-20&amp;l=as2&amp;o=1&amp;a=0830836268\" alt=\"\" style=\"border: medium none  ! important;margin: 0px ! important\" border=\"0\" height=\"1\" width=\"1\"><br>\n<\/strong><\/em>. <\/p>\n<p>And the second will be about Tom Wright\u2019s new book, <em><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0830838635?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=jescre-20&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0830838635\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Justification: God\u2019s Plan and Paul\u2019s Vision<\/a><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/www.assoc-amazon.com\/e\/ir?t=jescre-20&amp;l=as2&amp;o=1&amp;a=0830838635\" alt=\"\" style=\"border: medium none  ! important;margin: 0px ! important\" border=\"0\" height=\"1\" width=\"1\"><br>\n<\/strong><\/em>. Last week\u2019s post about the <a href=\"http:\/\/blog.beliefnet.com\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/the-new-perspective-and-resurr.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">New Perspective<\/a> sets some of the context of Tom Wright\u2019s debate with John Piper, <a href=\"http:\/\/www.desiringgod.org\/ResourceLibrary\/Interviews\/2446_Interview_with_John_Piper_About_The_Future_of_Justification_A_Response_to_N_T_Wright\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">who has been interviewed about it here<\/a>. Here is how John Piper defines justification in that interview: \u201cIn the New Testament, justification is the moment or the event when you<br>\nput your faith in Jesus Christ and at that moment God is no longer<br>\nagainst you\u2013he\u2019s for you, and he counts you as acceptable, forgiven,<br>\nrighteous, obedient because of your union with Christ. You are<br>\nperfectly acceptable to God and he is totally on your side.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><\/p>\n<p><!--more--><br>\nPiper goes on: \u201cJustification, I believe, is the way the Bible describes that moment..<br>\nJustification is the act by which God says, \u201cI no longer count you<br>\nguilty. I count you as righteous with the righteousness of my son.\u201d<br>\nThat\u2019s a saving moment, clustered with the call. Wright sees our call<br>\nas the only decisive saving moment. And I want to put with the call the<br>\nwork of God in justifying me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And: \u201cI think the New Perspective on Paul and other kinds of theologies<br>\nflowing from it are giving God only part of the glory he deserves. They<br>\nare missing the glory of Christ as our substitute obedience and our<br>\nsubstitute sacrifice and punishment, and the glory that on the basis of<br>\nthose two things, we have God totally on our side.\u201d [I quibble here<br>\nwith the tacit implication that NT Wright\u2019s version of the New<br>\nPerspective is \u201cthe\u201d New Perspective, but double imputation is central<br>\nto how Piper understands the gospel and justification. Tom doesn\u2019t<br>\nthink the NT teaches either gospel or justification in those terms.]<\/p>\n<p>And one more concluding comment by Piper: \u201cI want to prevent the reality of justification from moving off of<br>\nthe point where I become a Christian. I want to keep it right there,<br>\nbecause that\u2019s where I believe the Bible locates it. I become a<br>\nChristian by what happens in the event of justification. That\u2019s the<br>\nfirst thing. I want to keep justification from moving off of the basis of Christ\u2019s<br>\ndeath and obedience. And I want to keep the doctrine of justification<br>\nfrom moving off of the imputation of that obedience to me by faith<br>\nalone in union with Jesus Christ, so that my confidence in God being<br>\ntotally for me is resting not in what I do, but in what Christ did.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>For Piper, justification refers to the moment of conversion\/becoming a Christian. It comes by way of double imputation. Wright does not see things that way. Join us next Monday as we dip into this conversation.<br>\n<!-- Begin TwitThis (http:\/\/twitthis.com\/) --><\/p>\n<p>&lt;!\u2013<br>\ndocument.write('<a href=\";\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/s3.chuug.com\/chuug.twitthis.resources\/twitthis_grey_72x22.gif\" alt=\"TwitThis\" style=\"border:none\"><\/a>\u2018);<br>\n\/\/\u2013&gt;<\/p>\n<p><!-- \/End --><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>We will begin this Friday and then next week two new conversations. One will be about Andrew Marin\u2019s new book about homosexuality and the Church, called Love Is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation With the Gay Community . And the second will be about Tom Wright\u2019s new book, Justification: God\u2019s Plan and Paul\u2019s Vision . [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":197,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1568],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-5534","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-biblical-studies"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Coming Conversations<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"We will begin this Friday and then next week two new conversations. One will be about Andrew Marin&#039;s new book about homosexuality and the Church, called\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Coming Conversations\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"We will begin this Friday and then next week two new conversations. One will be about Andrew Marin&#039;s new book about homosexuality and the Church, called\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Jesus Creed\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2009-04-29T19:49:09+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/www.assoc-amazon.com\/e\/ir?t=jescre-20&amp;l=as2&amp;o=1&amp;a=0830836268\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Scot McKnight\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Scot McKnight\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"2 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/\",\"name\":\"Coming Conversations\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2009-04-29T19:49:09+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2009-04-29T19:49:09+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252\"},\"description\":\"We will begin this Friday and then next week two new conversations. One will be about Andrew Marin's new book about homosexuality and the Church, called\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Coming Conversations\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/\",\"name\":\"Jesus Creed\",\"description\":\"Scot McKnight on Jesus and orthodox faith in the 21st century\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252\",\"name\":\"Scot McKnight\",\"description\":\"Scot McKnight is a recognized authority on the New Testament, early Christianity, and the historical Jesus. McKnight, author of more than fifty books, is the Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Lombard, IL.\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/author\/scotmcknight\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Coming Conversations","description":"We will begin this Friday and then next week two new conversations. One will be about Andrew Marin's new book about homosexuality and the Church, called","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Coming Conversations","og_description":"We will begin this Friday and then next week two new conversations. One will be about Andrew Marin's new book about homosexuality and the Church, called","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/","og_site_name":"Jesus Creed","article_published_time":"2009-04-29T19:49:09+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"http:\/\/www.assoc-amazon.com\/e\/ir?t=jescre-20&amp;l=as2&amp;o=1&amp;a=0830836268"}],"author":"Scot McKnight","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Scot McKnight","Est. reading time":"2 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/","name":"Coming Conversations","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website"},"datePublished":"2009-04-29T19:49:09+00:00","dateModified":"2009-04-29T19:49:09+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252"},"description":"We will begin this Friday and then next week two new conversations. One will be about Andrew Marin's new book about homosexuality and the Church, called","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2009\/04\/29\/coming-conversations\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Coming Conversations"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/","name":"Jesus Creed","description":"Scot McKnight on Jesus and orthodox faith in the 21st century","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252","name":"Scot McKnight","description":"Scot McKnight is a recognized authority on the New Testament, early Christianity, and the historical Jesus. McKnight, author of more than fifty books, is the Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Lombard, IL.","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/author\/scotmcknight\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5534","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/197"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=5534"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5534\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=5534"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=5534"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=5534"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}