{"id":8697,"date":"2010-09-29T05:00:51","date_gmt":"2010-09-29T10:00:51","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/community\/jesuscreed\/?p=8697"},"modified":"2010-09-29T06:03:47","modified_gmt":"2010-09-29T11:03:47","slug":"beyond-the-abyss-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/09\/29\/beyond-the-abyss-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Beyond the Abyss 2"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

Sharon Baker is attempting to construct a Christian belief in the afterlife, particularly hell, that squares somehow with the unconditional love of God and the fundamental verse she continually mentions:<\/p>\n

2:3\u00a0Such prayer for all is good and welcomed before God our Savior,<\/em> 2:4\u00a0since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth<\/em> (1 Timothy).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

In some ways her study puts onto the table the necessity of explaining hell once one admits that God genuinely wants all to be saved. How does one explain it? Is God not powerful enough? Or is God not good enough? How can God be both altogether good and altogether powerful and create a hell that lasts forever. So, she\u2019s asking where the goodness of God is in all this.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>In Sharon Baker\u2019s Razing Hell: Rethinking Everything You\u2019ve Been Taught About God\u2019s Wrath and Judgment<\/a>\"\",<\/em><\/strong> we get a sketch of seven major problems for the traditional view of hell. (I\u2019m not convinced these are actually seven different points but variants on a few points, but still, here are the points.)<\/p>\n

In your own study and thinking what are the biggest issues for belief in a traditional view of hell \u2014 that God will punish sinners or non-Christians, with no hope of redemption, endlessly for the sin of not believing in Christ? Or, which of the seven below are the most challenging for you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

1. Theodicy: how does God deal with evil if it, in effect, exists for ever in a hell-state? Does evil not continue to exist, even in spite of the statement in Revelation 21:1-4 that death and suffering will be no more? So, the issue here is squaring God\u2019s goodness with eternal evil.<\/p>\n

2. Eternal hopelessness: a traditional hell does not permit any hope after death for anyone, including those who have never heard. Is there a law that says God\u2019s grace can only be active in the temporal sphere \u2014 that is, during our physical lifetime?
\n
\n3. Eternal evil: does not the traditional view entail the view that God never really does purge his world of evil?<\/p>\n

4. Justice vs. Love: the issue here is an old one. If God is love, how does justice fit in with that love. Is God ambivalent or split? An image of God that emerges for many is a cruel father who guides people to think of eternal punishment as an act of love.<\/p>\n

5. Eternal divine violence: assumptions are that punishment is an act of violence and eternal punishment would mean God is eternally violent. She connects this view of God with acts of violence in history. She thinks God\u2019s violence contradicts God\u2019s love.<\/p>\n

6. Retributive justice: again, a major issue is that God\u2019s justice in the Bible \u2014 in Christ \u2014 is restorative but hell is a belief in a retributive justice that never becomes restorative.<\/p>\n

7. Eternal punishment for temporal sin: how can it be just to punish a human being, who sinned temporally \u2014 that is over a life time (and no more), for an eternity for that temporal sin?<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Sharon Baker is attempting to construct a Christian belief in the afterlife, particularly hell, that squares somehow with the unconditional love of God and the fundamental verse she continually mentions: 2:3\u00a0Such prayer for all is good and welcomed before God our Savior, 2:4\u00a0since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":197,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[337],"tags":[17087,2125],"class_list":["post-8697","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-theology","tag-hell","tag-sharon-baker"],"yoast_head":"\nBeyond the Abyss 2<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Sharon Baker is attempting to construct a Christian belief in the afterlife, particularly hell, that squares somehow with the unconditional love of God\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/09\/29\/beyond-the-abyss-2\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Beyond the Abyss 2\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Sharon Baker is attempting to construct a Christian belief in the afterlife, particularly hell, that squares somehow with the unconditional love of God\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/09\/29\/beyond-the-abyss-2\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Jesus Creed\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2010-09-29T10:00:51+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2010-09-29T11:03:47+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/wp.patheos.com\/community\/jesuscreed\/files\/2010\/09\/LastJudg.jpg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Scot McKnight\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Scot McKnight\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"3 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/09\/29\/beyond-the-abyss-2\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/09\/29\/beyond-the-abyss-2\/\",\"name\":\"Beyond the Abyss 2\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2010-09-29T10:00:51+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2010-09-29T11:03:47+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252\"},\"description\":\"Sharon Baker is attempting to construct a Christian belief in the afterlife, particularly hell, that squares somehow with the unconditional love of God\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/09\/29\/beyond-the-abyss-2\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/09\/29\/beyond-the-abyss-2\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/09\/29\/beyond-the-abyss-2\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Beyond the Abyss 2\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/\",\"name\":\"Jesus Creed\",\"description\":\"Scot McKnight on Jesus and orthodox faith in the 21st century\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252\",\"name\":\"Scot McKnight\",\"description\":\"Scot McKnight is a recognized authority on the New Testament, early Christianity, and the historical Jesus. 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