{"id":9850,"date":"2010-10-28T00:05:46","date_gmt":"2010-10-28T05:05:46","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/community\/jesuscreed\/?p=9850"},"modified":"2010-10-26T20:13:54","modified_gmt":"2010-10-27T01:13:54","slug":"beyond-the-abyss-10","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/10\/28\/beyond-the-abyss-10\/","title":{"rendered":"Beyond the Abyss 10"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

I feel a need to complete Sharon Baker\u2019s challenging book, though I think we\u2019ve talked through her topics (Razing Hell: Rethinking Everything You\u2019ve Been Taught About God\u2019s Wrath and Judgment<\/a>\"\"<\/em><\/strong>). In the end, Sharon Baker is a universalist as I read her book.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a>Humans hear in the now the grace of God in Jesus Christ, and only those in Christ will be eternally saved. But, she\u2019s got a few major points to make:<\/p>\n

First, we will be judged \u2014 through the loving fire of God that purges \u2014 after this life. So, she believes this life matters; she believes we will all face a judgment; she sees redemption only in Christ.<\/p>\n

But, second, that judgment of God will purge us of sins and evil \u2014 and we will face God yet again in that judgment. So, she believes in a form of \u201csecond chance.\u201d\u00a0 I find this to be a major, major dividing line for many theologians today. How long does the grace of God extend? Into the afterlife or not? This second chance theory is a bit of a twist for many evangelicals.<\/p>\n

Third, she believes one option would be that some will reject God after the judgment and be annihilated \u2014 their sins having been destroyed, they will also be destroyed. But another option is that the door of grace remains open because once a person is purged from sin and evil that person will choose God and life \u2014 and her view of a gracious, just, and reconciling God who is intent on reconciliation \u201cdoesn\u2019t close the door on grace after closing the door on time\u201d (145). In this discussion it appears to me that Baker is a kind of universalist. \u201cGod\u2019s goodness desires all to be saved, and God\u2019s power works to make it happen\u201d (146).<\/p>\n

Fourth, she believes the word \u201ceternal\u201d in the Bible \u2014 olam<\/em> in Hebrew and aion<\/em> in Greek \u2014 refers, other than when it is connected with God, to be \u201cof an age.\u201d Thus, \u201ceternal punishment\u201d in Matthew 25:46 refers to the purging punishment of God\u2019s fire at the final judgment, but no longer.<\/p>\n

Here\u2019s my question: Do you think annihilation is retributive justice?<\/strong> (Even if annihilation occurs after the purging judgment, the annihilation occurs as a result of final rejection, and it is has eternal\/endless consequences.)<\/p>\n

I see it as retributive, and the only difference I see here between the traditional view and an annihilationist view is that the retribution is only quasi-eternal. In fact, annihilation is eternal \u2014 eternal consequences but not eternal consciousness \u2014 but it is not endless punishment in an active, conscious sense.<\/p>\n

Another one: Is universalism consistent with the Bible?<\/strong><\/p>\n

On unbelievers after the judgment, she makes statements that I can\u2019t read in any other way than a universalist way:<\/p>\n

Unlike believers, they will stand in the fire alone and bear the hell of facing their sin light of the incomprehensible extravagance of divine love. For them, the judgment of love burns, heals, and finally redeems so that, cleansed and purified, these persons can finally receive the forgiveness that was always there for them through Jesus and be reconciled to God if they so choose. So when all is said and done, we will all dwell in the eternal fiery presence of God and be consumed by God\u2019s love. At one, at last.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

I feel a need to complete Sharon Baker\u2019s challenging book, though I think we\u2019ve talked through her topics (Razing Hell: Rethinking Everything You\u2019ve Been Taught About God\u2019s Wrath and Judgment). In the end, Sharon Baker is a universalist as I read her book. Humans hear in the now the grace of God in Jesus Christ, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":197,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1039],"tags":[17087,2125],"class_list":["post-9850","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-hell","tag-hell","tag-sharon-baker"],"yoast_head":"\nBeyond the Abyss 10<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I feel a need to complete Sharon Baker's challenging book, though I think we've talked through her topics (Razing Hell: Rethinking Everything You've Been\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/10\/28\/beyond-the-abyss-10\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Beyond the Abyss 10\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"I feel a need to complete Sharon Baker's challenging book, though I think we've talked through her topics (Razing Hell: Rethinking Everything You've Been\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/10\/28\/beyond-the-abyss-10\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Jesus Creed\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2010-10-28T05:05:46+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2010-10-27T01:13:54+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/www.assoc-amazon.com\/e\/ir?t=jescre-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0664236545\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Scot McKnight\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Scot McKnight\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"3 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/10\/28\/beyond-the-abyss-10\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/10\/28\/beyond-the-abyss-10\/\",\"name\":\"Beyond the Abyss 10\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2010-10-28T05:05:46+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2010-10-27T01:13:54+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252\"},\"description\":\"I feel a need to complete Sharon Baker's challenging book, though I think we've talked through her topics (Razing Hell: Rethinking Everything You've Been\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/10\/28\/beyond-the-abyss-10\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/10\/28\/beyond-the-abyss-10\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/2010\/10\/28\/beyond-the-abyss-10\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Beyond the Abyss 10\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/\",\"name\":\"Jesus Creed\",\"description\":\"Scot McKnight on Jesus and orthodox faith in the 21st century\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/5919e847c58ffe6efb5899fb61797252\",\"name\":\"Scot McKnight\",\"description\":\"Scot McKnight is a recognized authority on the New Testament, early Christianity, and the historical Jesus. 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