{"id":18501,"date":"2016-11-07T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2016-11-07T00:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/leithart.level2d.com\/?p=243"},"modified":"2016-11-07T00:00:00","modified_gmt":"2016-11-07T00:00:00","slug":"end-of-protestantism-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/","title":{"rendered":"End of Protestantism"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

M<\/span>y End of Protestantism<\/i><\/a> (the book) deals with a number of the questions Doug Wilson raises in his brief review<\/a>. Here I correct several of Doug\u2019s misrepresentations and clarify some points, but mainly point to fuller discussions in the book. <\/p>\n

First, on John 17: Doug says that I\u2019m \u201cadamant\u201d that the the church isn\u2019t unified, and so I must<\/em> be saying the Father refused the Son\u2019s request. For his part, Doug says \u201cthe Father must be saying \u2018not yet\u2019 instead of giving a flat no<\/em>. But as soon as we do that, we find ourselves seeing the Lord\u2019s request here as eschatological, yearning for the completion<\/em> of His church. He is not praying about the mess of the construction phase, but rather what it will be like when we are setting the great ecumenical capstone.\u201d<\/p>\n

It would be a serious mistake, and a little dim-witted, for me to say that the Father refuses the Son. Fortunately, I didn\u2019t. The entire premise of my book (as Fred Sanders discerned in his Christianity Today review<\/a>) is that Jesus gets what He asks for, so the church will be<\/em> unified. I don\u2019t know how to make the point more clearly than I did on page 7: \u201dThe Father loves the Son and will give him what he asks. He does not give a stone when Jesus asks for bread. . . . The Father will give the Son a unified church, and the Son will unify the church by his Spirit.\u201d I agree entirely that unity is a gift of God, which is why I said so in the book (e.g., p. 19: \u201cThe reunion of humanity is salvation, and as such it is as much a gift as is our individual deliverance from sin\u201d; also p. 165), and why I repeatedly emphasized the central importance of prayer for unity (e.g., p. 188).<\/p>\n

But, second: I remain puzzled that Doug takes his claim that Jesus\u2019 prayer is \u201ceschatological, yearning for the completion<\/em> of His church\u201d as a discussion-ender. It\u2019s a discussion-starter. It raises the very question my book addresses: Given that we\u2019re heading toward unity, what should we be doing now<\/em>? For Abram, the promise of land was a distant hope, beyond his life, yet he oriented his entire life around that promised future. Aren\u2019t we sons of Abraham, imitating the faith of Abraham, the faith that is the substance of things not yet seen? (This is also an emphasis of the book, summed up in the formula I repeat, nearly ad naseum<\/em>: \u201cwe are called to be now<\/em> what we will be<\/em>.\u201d)<\/p>\n

Third: Doug says that neither unity nor division is good per se<\/em>. I agree. Which is why I wrote (p. 12), \u201cThe sin of the sons of God (Gen 6:1-4) was a sin of false union\u201d and go on to describe Babel as \u201cthe great biblical story of false unification and final dispersal.\u201d It\u2019s why I emphasized on the following page that Jesus \u201ccame with a sword. His teaching and actions provoked opposition and forced people in Israel to choose sides. He divided fathers from sons, mothers from daughters, brothers from brothers.\u201d It\u2019s why I talked about the separations inherent in God\u2019s creative action in Genesis 1 and in His government of history since (pp. 101-3).<\/p>\n

Fourth: Doug criticizes my claim that our disunity is not the result of non-churches splitting off from churches. He lists some non-churches that have split off from churches, but that misses my point. Yes, heretical sects have split off from the church; that is not a wound in the church. Orthodox believers have separated from churches that have become synagogues of Satan; that is not a wound in the church either. But the separation of East and West in 1054 did not leave a Latin church and an Eastern non<\/em>-church (or vice versa). It left behind a divided church. It left a wound within<\/em> the church. Dittos with the Reformation, and with many (not all) of the separations that have occurred since. As I wrote in the book, \u201cwe cannot exonerate the church by treating division as extra<\/em>-ecclesial,\u201d and we must reject \u201cecclesiologies that imply that \u2018the Church as such is never divided\u2019\u201d (p. 22, quoting Ephraim Radner). <\/p>\n

Finally, for now: Doug disputes my claim that \u201conce there were no denominations.\u201d But he disputes it by un-historically conflating diversity within the church with \u201cdenominationalism.\u201d Benedictines and Dominicans didn\u2019t form denominations; there have been dissenting churches under European state-church systems, but that doesn\u2019t make a state-church system equivalent to denominationalism. The church has never been entirely uniform, but denominationalism is a specific, fairly recent, historical form of the church, which I describe on pages 56-59 in a subsection helpfully titled \u201cWhat Is Denominationalism?\u201d<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

My End of Protestantism (the book) deals with a number of the questions Doug Wilson raises in his brief review. Here I correct several of Doug\u2019s misrepresentations and clarify some points, but mainly point to fuller discussions in the book. First, on John 17: Doug says that I\u2019m \u201cadamant\u201d that the the church isn\u2019t unified, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3021,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[699],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-18501","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-reformational-catholicism"],"yoast_head":"\nEnd of Protestantism<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"My End of Protestantism (the book) deals with a number of the questions Doug Wilson raises in his brief review. Here I correct several of Doug\u2019s\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"End of Protestantism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"My End of Protestantism (the book) deals with a number of the questions Doug Wilson raises in his brief review. Here I correct several of Doug\u2019s\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Leithart\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/Leithart\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2016-11-07T00:00:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Peter Leithart\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@PLeithart\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Peter Leithart\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"4 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/\",\"name\":\"End of Protestantism\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2016-11-07T00:00:00+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2016-11-07T00:00:00+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#\/schema\/person\/6bb7113e4dd45fe26045622aa56f891d\"},\"description\":\"My End of Protestantism (the book) deals with a number of the questions Doug Wilson raises in his brief review. Here I correct several of Doug\u2019s\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"End of Protestantism\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/\",\"name\":\"Leithart\",\"description\":\"My blog is a public notebook, featuring essays, notes, and explorations on Scripture, theology, literature, politics, culture.\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#\/schema\/person\/6bb7113e4dd45fe26045622aa56f891d\",\"name\":\"Peter Leithart\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f1033df9cd7263d2e0408cf9ee92ee4d?s=96&d=identicon&r=pg\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f1033df9cd7263d2e0408cf9ee92ee4d?s=96&d=identicon&r=pg\",\"caption\":\"Peter Leithart\"},\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/Leithart\/\",\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/PLeithart\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/author\/pleithart\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"End of Protestantism","description":"My End of Protestantism (the book) deals with a number of the questions Doug Wilson raises in his brief review. Here I correct several of Doug\u2019s","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"End of Protestantism","og_description":"My End of Protestantism (the book) deals with a number of the questions Doug Wilson raises in his brief review. Here I correct several of Doug\u2019s","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/","og_site_name":"Leithart","article_author":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/Leithart\/","article_published_time":"2016-11-07T00:00:00+00:00","author":"Peter Leithart","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@PLeithart","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Peter Leithart","Est. reading time":"4 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/","name":"End of Protestantism","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#website"},"datePublished":"2016-11-07T00:00:00+00:00","dateModified":"2016-11-07T00:00:00+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#\/schema\/person\/6bb7113e4dd45fe26045622aa56f891d"},"description":"My End of Protestantism (the book) deals with a number of the questions Doug Wilson raises in his brief review. Here I correct several of Doug\u2019s","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/2016\/11\/end-of-protestantism-2\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"End of Protestantism"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/","name":"Leithart","description":"My blog is a public notebook, featuring essays, notes, and explorations on Scripture, theology, literature, politics, culture.","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#\/schema\/person\/6bb7113e4dd45fe26045622aa56f891d","name":"Peter Leithart","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f1033df9cd7263d2e0408cf9ee92ee4d?s=96&d=identicon&r=pg","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f1033df9cd7263d2e0408cf9ee92ee4d?s=96&d=identicon&r=pg","caption":"Peter Leithart"},"sameAs":["https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/Leithart\/","https:\/\/twitter.com\/PLeithart"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/author\/pleithart\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/18501","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3021"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=18501"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/18501\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=18501"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=18501"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/leithart\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=18501"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}