{"id":22245,"date":"2014-06-28T05:00:18","date_gmt":"2014-06-28T09:00:18","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/?p=22245"},"modified":"2014-06-22T19:33:59","modified_gmt":"2014-06-22T23:33:59","slug":"ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html","title":{"rendered":"CTNAHM: Let’s Talk in Circles!"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/a>By Aletha<\/strong><\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Originally posted on Yllom Mormon<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n

Created To Need A Help Meet, 179-180<\/strong><\/p>\n

In case you were thinking that men in the Christian Patriarchial culture sure have it easy, Michael is here today to tell you that you\u2019re wrong. Being a man brings with it the great, great burden of responsibilty. Poor things, it almost makes me want to serve my husband more\u2026<\/p>\n

Not Created to Serve<\/strong><\/p>\n

My wife is telling your wives to serve their husbands. I am thankful she serves me, but we need to keep in mind that being born a man is not a license to be served. I have worked on construction sites off and on since I was ten years old. There are times when you must leave one of the regular hands in charge of the construction while you get materials or bid on another job. Some employees are so immature that they see their leadership role as a chance to tell other people what to do rather than as a responsibility to get the job done correctly. They get heady with power and act the fool to the detriment of the project, making it very\u00a0difficult\u00a0for\u00a0the other men to obey them. The job suffers and the designated foreman blames the workers.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

As usual, I am struck by how little introspection Michael has. Debi is a great servant, telling other women to be servants to their husbands (and if you think I\u2019m overexaggerating, read her book), yet Michael claims being a man isn\u2019t license to be served. \u00a0I\u2019m confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Literally 5 or 6 times so far IN THIS VERY BOOK, he talks about what a great servant Debi is. Yet the only time he discusses what he\u2019s done in his marriage to deserve being served is when he talks about \u201ccleansing his wife\u2019s spots\u201d, or encouraging her to write and publish a book. So I\u2019m trying to figure out why he thinks he deserves to be served, if it\u2019s not because he\u2019s a man. Anyone have any ideas on this?<\/p>\n

As for the construction analogy, it makes sense. I\u2019ve worked at a few places, and there are always people that think leadership=bossiness. I\u2019m currently assistant manager of an ice cream\/hamburger restaurant, and let me tell you, leadership is far more than being bossy. Effective leadership is about helping; pitching in everywhere for the good of the team. It\u2019s about noticing what needs to be done, and finding the best person for the job to do it. It\u2019s about balancing constructive criticism, praise, and professionalism.<\/p>\n

But this idealistic view of leadership isn\u2019t even covered in this book. No, Michael thinks being a leader is changing one\u2019s wife to suit his needs. Or \u201cencouraging\u201d one\u2019s wife to find a hobby that he approves of. In short, despite his pretty analogy, Michael thinks being a leader is being the boss. I\u2019ve spent more time with this book than is probably healthy for me, and not once has Michael talked about constructive criticism, or even praise. He never encourages men to build up their wives, or support them in their choices. He\u2019s all for support, as long as HE is the one choosing, but he rarely advocates giving the woman the choice.<\/p>\n

Oh, and the line \u201cthe job suffers and the designated foreman blames the workers\u201d? Read Debi\u2019s book. If a man is unsaved, mean, abusive, manipulative, or a jerk, it\u2019s because the wife wasn\u2019t submissive enough. And even in Michael\u2019s book, if the marriage is suffering, it\u2019s because the wife is spotted, blemished, or wrinkled, and the man needs to fix that. So who, really, is being blamed here? Oh, that\u2019s right. The woman (or the worker, to hold to the analogy). Way to prove your own point, Michael.<\/p>\n

Likewise the leadership role God gives a man in marriage is not a privileged position; it is a great responsibility requiring sacrifice and service. I am\u00a0embarrassed\u00a0by the attitude of actions of many preachers and laymen\u00a0alike. Some misguided men see the world as\u00a0divided\u00a0into the served and the serving-male and female.\u00a0Women are not created to serve men any more than men are created to serve women. There is nothing in the Scripture that suggest the female gender is to be subjugated by the male.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I agree that there are sacrifices that happen with leadership, but, to be honest, I don\u2019t see Michael making them. Especially in marriage, sacrifice usually means compromise, and that word has not appeared once in this book. I\u2019m not even joking here. Compromise isn\u2019t an option, according to Michael. \u00a0I\u2019m amused that he\u2019s embarrassed by the attitudes of other men, because it sounds like he shares those views. Why else would he continually call women servants and weaker vessels?<\/p>\n

Then he truly loses me. Women are not created to serve men, and yet the title of Debi\u2019s book is \u201cCreated to Be His Help Meet.\u201d Which almost literally means \u201ccreated to serve\u201d, doesn\u2019t it? And of course men aren\u2019t created to serve women; if this book is any indication, men are created to need a servant (help meet). \u00a0Here\u2019s some marriage advice, Michael. Why doesn\u2019t each party try to serve\/help\/support\/love\/accept the other? If you\u2019re going to make such a fuss about not seeing the world as male\/female, then why not hold each partner to the same standard?<\/p>\n

And shall we talk about the scriptures that Michael has named that suggest females are to be subjugated by the males? I don\u2019t think I have the stomach for it today, actually. So here\u2019s a\u00a0link<\/a>\u00a0to a few sections back where Michael makes this point.<\/p>\n

Both are created to meet the needs of the other, which means that each\u00a0voluntarily\u00a0serves\u00a0the\u00a0other, but to\u00a0reduce either\u00a0to the role of servant is a perversion of nature.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Head\/desk. Read the first two sentences of this section. In the text, those sentences are literally 2 paragraphs up, and yet he doesn\u2019t seem to recall reducing his wife to the role of a servant. I\u2019m actually getting upset at how little Michael seems to recall his own text.<\/p>\n

Your wife is not your\u00a0assistant. She assists, but not as a business assistant or domestic servant would. Her assistance\u00a0is first on the level of soul and spirit, which may then result in gracious, voluntary serving. If not, you have no right to intimidate her and certainly no power to constrain.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Alright. How can a wife assist the husband on the level of soul and spirit? Is that mentioned in Debi\u2019s book? Because from what I remember, she assists by cleaning, cooking, sexing, and obeying. \u00a0Is that how to assist the soul? Because if I could describe what my soul needs from my husband, I would say it\u2019s validation, acceptance, love, and honesty. Which, frankly, seem a lot less tangible than Debi\u2019s list. And isn\u2019t that the point? The soul, an intangible (and debatable) thing, has intangible needs. Except, I guess, chicken soup. But that might be just good marketing\u2026<\/p>\n

I think it\u2019s amusing how gracious, voluntary serving is not optional per Debi, but \u201cmay\u201d happen says Michael. \u00a0You would think that a husband and wife team writing books about marriage would\u2026I don\u2019t know\u2026agree more about marriage. I\u2019m not even going to touch on the subject of intimidation or constraint. Because it should be obvious.<\/p>\n

I hope you\u2019re ready to throw up a little in your mouth. Because what comes next is only for those with strong constitutions.<\/p>\n

Upon marriage, my wife immediately commenced serving me, but it was years before I would learn that it was a gift from someone who wanted to bless me, not a woman doing what women are supposed to do. For years I thought it was all about me. I was the head and she was\u2026well, she was there to make me happy and successful, to help me do whatever I wanted to do. It was her role to be happy serving. Somebody has to be boss, and, imperfect as I was, God\u00a0appointed\u00a0me to be the head of the home and her to \u2026 you know, cheerfully do her\u00a0duty. I knew that when a woman gets right with God she stops complaining and\u00a0nagging\u00a0and starts\u00a0serving her husband without question. But then, I acquired my\u00a0views\u00a0from my culture, not from God.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Yes, you read that right. If this isn\u2019t a humblebrag, I will eat this book. The worst part about this last paragraph is how true it is! And still, Michael never comes out and says \u201cI was wrong! That\u2019s not what women are for!\u201d Oh sure, he may call it a gift, but dollars to donuts, if Debi suddenly took that gift away, there would be (probably literal for her) hell to pay.<\/p>\n

And I swear, the \u201ccheerfully do her duty\u201d part means sex. Did anyone else get that vibe? When a woman gets right with god, she stops complaining and nagging? He truly believes this stuff? Because Debi\u2019s book pretty much says \u201cTO BE RIGHT WITH GOD, DO THIS\u201d. I am just so confused and disgusted right now. Because it seems, though Michael approved \u201cevery word\u201d of Debi\u2019s book, that he didn\u2019t read it. I\u2019m just so taken aback by how differently Michael and Debi view their marriage, and marriage in general.<\/p>\n

All I can say is, thank goodness that my marriage is nothing like this. Who\u2019s with me?<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

By Aletha.<\/i> As usual, I am struck by how little introspection Michael has. Debi is a great servant, telling other women to be servants to their husbands (and if you think I’m overexaggerating, read her book), yet Michael claims being a man isn’t license to be served. I’m confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Literally 5 or 6 times so far IN THIS VERY BOOK, he talks about what a great servant Debi is.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":845,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[354],"class_list":["post-22245","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-created-to-need-a-help-meet"],"yoast_head":"\nCTNAHM: Let's Talk in Circles!<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"By Aletha. As usual, I am struck by how little introspection Michael has. Debi is a great servant, telling other women to be servants to their husbands (and if you think I'm overexaggerating, read her book), yet Michael claims being a man isn't license to be served. I'm confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Literally 5 or 6 times so far IN THIS VERY BOOK, he talks about what a great servant Debi is.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"CTNAHM: Let's Talk in Circles!\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"By Aletha. As usual, I am struck by how little introspection Michael has. Debi is a great servant, telling other women to be servants to their husbands (and if you think I'm overexaggerating, read her book), yet Michael claims being a man isn't license to be served. I'm confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Literally 5 or 6 times so far IN THIS VERY BOOK, he talks about what a great servant Debi is.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Love, Joy, Feminism\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2014-06-28T09:00:18+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2014-06-22T23:33:59+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/files\/2014\/06\/servant-237x300.jpg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Libby Anne\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Libby Anne\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"8 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html\",\"name\":\"CTNAHM: Let's Talk in Circles!\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2014-06-28T09:00:18+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2014-06-22T23:33:59+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#\/schema\/person\/fae465c1bbb5cbdf26c9e73bfd1b73d2\"},\"description\":\"By Aletha. As usual, I am struck by how little introspection Michael has. Debi is a great servant, telling other women to be servants to their husbands (and if you think I'm overexaggerating, read her book), yet Michael claims being a man isn't license to be served. I'm confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Literally 5 or 6 times so far IN THIS VERY BOOK, he talks about what a great servant Debi is.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"CTNAHM: Let’s Talk in Circles!\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/\",\"name\":\"Love, Joy, Feminism\",\"description\":\"\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#\/schema\/person\/fae465c1bbb5cbdf26c9e73bfd1b73d2\",\"name\":\"Libby Anne\",\"description\":\"Libby Anne grew up in a large evangelical homeschool family highly involved in the Christian Right. College turned her world upside down, and she is today an atheist, a feminist, and a progressive. She blogs about leaving religion, her experience with the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements, the detrimental effects of the \\\"purity culture,\\\" the contradictions of conservative politics, and the importance of feminism.\",\"sameAs\":[\"http:\/\/patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/author\/libby\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"CTNAHM: Let's Talk in Circles!","description":"By Aletha. As usual, I am struck by how little introspection Michael has. Debi is a great servant, telling other women to be servants to their husbands (and if you think I'm overexaggerating, read her book), yet Michael claims being a man isn't license to be served. I'm confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Literally 5 or 6 times so far IN THIS VERY BOOK, he talks about what a great servant Debi is.","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"CTNAHM: Let's Talk in Circles!","og_description":"By Aletha. As usual, I am struck by how little introspection Michael has. Debi is a great servant, telling other women to be servants to their husbands (and if you think I'm overexaggerating, read her book), yet Michael claims being a man isn't license to be served. I'm confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Literally 5 or 6 times so far IN THIS VERY BOOK, he talks about what a great servant Debi is.","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html","og_site_name":"Love, Joy, Feminism","article_published_time":"2014-06-28T09:00:18+00:00","article_modified_time":"2014-06-22T23:33:59+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"http:\/\/wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/files\/2014\/06\/servant-237x300.jpg"}],"author":"Libby Anne","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Libby Anne","Est. reading time":"8 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html","name":"CTNAHM: Let's Talk in Circles!","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#website"},"datePublished":"2014-06-28T09:00:18+00:00","dateModified":"2014-06-22T23:33:59+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#\/schema\/person\/fae465c1bbb5cbdf26c9e73bfd1b73d2"},"description":"By Aletha. As usual, I am struck by how little introspection Michael has. Debi is a great servant, telling other women to be servants to their husbands (and if you think I'm overexaggerating, read her book), yet Michael claims being a man isn't license to be served. I'm confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Literally 5 or 6 times so far IN THIS VERY BOOK, he talks about what a great servant Debi is.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-lets-talk-in-circles.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"CTNAHM: Let’s Talk in Circles!"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/","name":"Love, Joy, Feminism","description":"","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#\/schema\/person\/fae465c1bbb5cbdf26c9e73bfd1b73d2","name":"Libby Anne","description":"Libby Anne grew up in a large evangelical homeschool family highly involved in the Christian Right. College turned her world upside down, and she is today an atheist, a feminist, and a progressive. She blogs about leaving religion, her experience with the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements, the detrimental effects of the \"purity culture,\" the contradictions of conservative politics, and the importance of feminism.","sameAs":["http:\/\/patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/author\/libby"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/22245","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/845"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=22245"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/22245\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=22245"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=22245"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=22245"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}