{"id":22372,"date":"2014-07-04T05:02:20","date_gmt":"2014-07-04T09:02:20","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/?p=22372"},"modified":"2014-06-29T01:17:30","modified_gmt":"2014-06-29T05:17:30","slug":"ctnahm-obey-vs-submit","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/07\/ctnahm-obey-vs-submit.html","title":{"rendered":"CTNAHM: Obey vs. Submit"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p><span style=\"color: #800080;\"><em><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/166\/2014\/06\/kneel.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft  wp-image-22375\" title=\"kneel\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/166\/2014\/06\/kneel.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"280\" height=\"199\"><\/a>By Aletha<\/strong><\/em><\/span><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/yllommormon.blogspot.com\/2014\/06\/ctnahm-obey-indeed-part-6-obey-vs-submit.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>Originally posted on Yllom Mormon<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n<p><strong>Created To Need a Help Meet, pp. 180-182<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>This chapter is called Obey, Indeed?, and there\u2019s been some confusion-mostly due to Michael\u2019s writing-about the difference between obeying and submitting. However, say what you will about Michael, he is decent at solving problems that he creates. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the stirring difference between obeying and submitting.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Your Helper, Not Your Slave<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The people at No Greater Joy work for me. I am their boss. Many of my employees are smarter than I, and most of them have talents and abilities I do not\u00a0posses. I trust them to fill their respective jobs, and I seek their\u00a0advice in their area of expertise, often deferring to their\u00a0judgement\u00a0in a matter. Sometimes they even question a\u00a0decision I make. I counter-challenge them and expect them to argue their point. I would be\u00a0foolish\u00a0to\u00a0treat their opinions lightly. I would be cutting off my own success if I didn\u2019t treat them with respect.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>I\u2019m wondering how many of these respected employees are women. Because I really can\u2019t see him allowing questioning from a woman-regardless of her \u201cexpertise\u201d. Although I don\u2019t disagree with what he\u2019s saying. I\u2019m a manager at a fast food place, and sometimes I trust the expertise of my employees. I know, for example, when somebody orders 15 burgers to go, it is best to get out of the way and let the grill people handle it-because anything I do will throw off their groove.<\/p>\n<p>This sort of sounds like what Michael is advocating, but I really don\u2019t\u2019 like the comparison that\u2019s about to happen. One\u2019s spouse should be an equal partner, not an employee. And as delightful as it is that Michael claims to have such a great relationship with some of his trusted colleagues, I just don\u2019t see there being much respect for Debi, or her having much opportunity to question Michael\u2019s decisions.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>You are not her master; you are her partner in sanctification. As head of the family, you are responsible to be an example and to patiently encourage your wife to grow as a person and to help her understand and perform her duties as your chief helper. Your role in marriage is not that of enforcer; it is that of encourager.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>What worries me is how often Michael has had to tell men in this book that they aren\u2019t their wive\u2019s master. Isn\u2019t that telling of where the actual problem is? Unfortunately, Michael undoes all of this \u201cyou\u2019re not their master\u201d by reminding them that women are their employees, helpers, and servants.<\/p>\n<p>Another thing I\u2019m curious about is how the man is supposed to grow as a person. I mean, if the only way wives grow and change is at their husband\u2019s insistence, are we to assume that men are just such natural leaders that they will lead themselves in the right direction? And if women aren\u2019t supposed to question, how is a man to know that he\u2019s in the wrong? Especially if his wife is \u201cproperly submitting\u201d-which I interpret to mean \u201cYes dear\u201d-ing. Or is that the part where God steps in and helps the man with his \u201chead of the household\u201d part?<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Submit, not Obey<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Several passages in the Bible instruct wives to submit to their own husbands, but obedience is only mentioned twice, and each has its own unique context. Following is one of the many commands that a wife should be in subjection, but it provides an example of Sarah going even further in an act of obedience.<br>\n<strong><\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>1 Peter 3:1, 5-6<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Likewise, ye wives, be in\u00a0<strong>subjection<\/strong>\u00a0to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the world, they also may without the word be won by the conversion of the wives; For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in\u00a0<strong>subjection<\/strong>\u00a0unto their own husbands: Even as\u00a0<strong>Sara obeyed Abraham,<\/strong>\u00a0calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. (emphasis his)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>OK. So women are supposed to be in subjection to their husbands, but their husbands aren\u2019t their masters? Does this make sense to anyone else? Because no matter how much Michael talks, I\u2019m really getting the feeling that the difference is all in semantics. \u201cNo, she\u2019s not supposed to OBEY you, she\u2019s supposed to joyfully submit to serving you. See the difference?\u201d Um\u2026no, not really. Thanks for trying, though.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>The Bible records just two\u00a0occasions\u00a0in which Sarah obeyed Abraham, so one of them will of necessity be the even to\u00a0which Peter is referring. The second\u00a0episode\u00a0is not significant; he commanded her to prepare a meal and\u00a0she did. Of course, if your wife doesn\u2019t prepare meals that verse will be more relevant to you.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>I imagine him chuckling at that last line. \u00a0\u201cHeh heh heh\u2026glad I got me a woman who will cook for me!\u201d<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>The first event recorded in Genesis 12 is no doubt the experience in question. When visiting Egypt, Abraham feared that\u00a0Pharaoh\u00a0would see his beautiful wife Sarah and have him killed so as to make of her an eligible widow, so\u00a0Abraham commanded her to lie, saying she was only his sister. Sarah obeyed Abraham, lying as he commanded, calling him \u201clord\u201d. And though she was in jeopardy of being taken to\u00a0Pharaoh\u2019s\u00a0bed, she was not\u00a0\u201cafraid with any amazement\u201d at the position her lying husband had put her in. Her faith was justified when God intervened and struck the Egyptians with diseases.\u00a0Pharaoh\u00a0divined that it was God\u2019s judgment on his nation and\u00a0discovered the ploy. He so feared God that he released Abraham and Sarah and after a stern rebuke sent them away unharmed with their goods.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>This story has always irritated me. When we would go over this in Sunday School, my Mormon teachers would hold this up as an example how sometimes following the prophet doesn\u2019t make sense, but look how well it worked out for them! I, personally, have always thought this is why you shouldn\u2019t trust authority-I mean look at how much work God had to do to fix Abraham\u2019s mess! Instead of coming up with an elaborate ruse, why didn\u2019t Abraham just cover her with blankets or something and say that she has a pestillence or something? Or have her stick blankets under her robe and say she\u2019s pregnant? Surely there were a thousand or so other options Abraham had than forcing his wife to lie. Heck, they could have just avoided the city Pharaoh was at. Problem solved!<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Why make an issue between the very similar words \u201cobey\u201d and \u201csubmit\u201d? Because though they can be used interchangeably in many contexts, they are different in connotation, not only in English but also in Hebrew and Greek. (I make reference to Hebrew and Greek for those of you who are foolish enamored with two of the original languages.)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Ooooh, oooh, ooh, pick me! I know someone who is enamored with Greek and Hebrew. Want to guess who? Nah. Just watch this\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/nogreaterjoy.org\/video\/bible-questions-with-michael-pearl-episode-027-why-king-james-bible-only\/\" target=\"_blank\" class=\" decorated-link\" rel=\"nofollow\">video<\/a>.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>A quick review of every use of these two words readily reveals a wonderful distinction. We get\u00a0the\u00a0same results\u00a0in any language. Webster\u2019s accurately represents the differences, as does Strong in his Greek word definitions, not that we can fully trust either of them. Get a concordance or look them up in a Bible program and read every use, noting the differences. That way you won\u2019t have to take my word for it or A. W. Strong\u2019s or Webster\u2019s, or any one of your favorite mothballed Greek scholars.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>So we shouldn\u2019t take his word about translations of various words, but we should read his book and apply EVERYTHING he says because he\u2019s right? That is some magical thinking, there, Mike. Heh. Magic Mike.<\/p>\n<p>Or not. Ewww.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>I won\u2019t go through all the proofs. It would be too long. You can research it as you will.\u00a0<strong>Obey<\/strong>\u00a0has a much lower threshold than does\u00a0<strong>submit<\/strong>. It can be impersonal and devoid of heart motive. In Scripture, the winds and the sea obey him. Devils obey him. A slave obeys his master. A child, through constraint, obeys his parents. The church is to obey them that have the spiritual rule over them. We put bits in horse\u2019s mouths and they obey us. Sarah obeyed Abraham in a very difficult situation. You could call that blind obedience, much like a slave renders to his master, or a child renders to his parents. No questions asked, no answers given.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>I see. So the real difference between submission and obedience is the heart motive. Apparently Michael has no idea that people can put on a fake face and pretend to be submissive when they are really just being obedient. But what I find most interesting is in Debi\u2019s\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/05\/ctbhhm-obey-your-husband-so-he-will-have-nothing-to-beat-down.html\" target=\"_blank\" class=\" decorated-link\">book<\/a>. She freely uses the term \u201cobey\u201d as something wives should routinely do for their husbands. She doesn\u2019t talk much about submission, funnily enough.<\/p>\n<p>The discord between the two books is staggering. Debi\u2019s book says to obey the husband. Michael\u2019s book says that obedience isn\u2019t as good as submission. Does anyone else see how this could be a problem? And, once again, there is no oversight in these relationships. Unless one takes the Sarah\/Abraham story at face value, and I\u2019m sure many do, that God will step up and patch things up when the man gets them wrong.<\/p>\n<p>Holy cow. I just turned the page and realised that this section goes on for another 2 pages. I think this is enough bananas for one day. So, until the next post, ladies, think of how you can turn your obedience into joyful submission. And men, think of ways to \u201cencourage\u201d your wife into being a more submissive helper.<\/p>\n<p>Nah, just kidding. Everyone should just think of ways to show and give respect to their partner, regardless of gender. (And you didn\u2019t even have to buy a $12 book for that advice; you\u2019re welcome).<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p><i>By Aletha.<\/i> This chapter is called Obey, Indeed?, and there&#8217;s been some confusion-mostly due to Michael&#8217;s writing-about the difference between obeying and submitting. However, say what you will about Michael, he is decent at solving problems that he creates. 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