{"id":25693,"date":"2015-05-28T00:06:25","date_gmt":"2015-05-28T04:06:25","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/?p=25693"},"modified":"2015-05-28T00:06:25","modified_gmt":"2015-05-28T04:06:25","slug":"it-took-this-for-people-to-listen","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/it-took-this-for-people-to-listen.html","title":{"rendered":"It Took <i>This<\/i> for People to Listen?"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>Last fall\u00a0a petition was created calling on\u00a0TLC to cancel 19 Kids and Counting after the Duggars\u00a0deleted\u00a0photos of gay and lesbian couples from their facebook page (they had called for happily married couples to post pictures of themselves, but apparently only meant\u00a0<em>heterosexual<\/em>\u00a0couples).\u00a0At the time, I wrote a post I titled\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/11\/on-the-duggars-and-the-locus-of-outrage.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">On the Duggars and the Locus of Outrage<\/a>.\u00a0My words then are\u00a0still relevant today, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-josh-duggar-police-report.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">in the wake of revelations<\/a> that Josh Duggar sexually abused five girls in two families as a teen:<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p style=\"color: #000000;\">So let\u2019s get this straight. The Duggars support an extreme version of patriarchy that holds that wives must be constantly\u00a0sexually available for their husbands, and no one bats an eye. The Duggars promote child rearing practices that involve spanking infants and punishing children for frowning, and no one cares. The Duggars don\u2019t allow their adult children to be unchaperoned or to text their beaus without daddy reading over their shoulders, and everyone smiles and calls it quaint. The Duggars support a sexual predator [Bill Gothard] and continue supporting his ministry [ATI] even after his actions are made public, and everyone yawns. Michelle Duggar records a transphobic robocall and most people just shrug. But the Duggars delete pictures of gay and lesbian couples kissing from their personal facebook page, and\u00a0<em>that<\/em>\u00a0is enough to bring a hundred thousand people out of the woodwork to demand TLC to pull the\u00a0show.<\/p>\n<p style=\"color: #000000;\">Now for the million dollar question: Do I think the petition is a good idea? Would I like to see TLC pull 19 Kids and Counting?<\/p>\n<p style=\"color: #000000;\">Here is what I would like to see: I would like to see TLC be honest in its portrayal of the Duggars. I would like them to be clear about the fact that their star family supports the ministry of a serial sexual predator. I would like them to be clear that the girls are not given any semblance of true choice when it comes to leaving home or going out with a boy. I would like to see them be honest about the child rearing practices the Duggars support, rather than allowing the Duggars to smile and hedge\u00a0every time someone asks them about spanking. \u00a0I would like to see them be brutally and painfully honest about what Michelle and Jim Bob are teaching their daughters about their role in life, as women. I would also like to see more attention paid to the quality of education the children are receiving, and why none of them have attended college.<\/p>\n<p style=\"color: #000000;\">The problem I have with\u00a0TLC is not so much the fact that they run the Duggar\u2019s show as it is the fact that they portray the family as all cutesy and happy and sweet, covering over the horrible things the parents believe and support and the impact these things have on their children.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p>Before I come back to this idea\u2014and I will\u2014I want to highlight the words of several of my fellow bloggers. I have really appreciated, this week, being surrounded by other bloggers who write with such power and honesty.<\/p>\n<p>First is\u00a0Micah J. Murray\u2019s excellent post, which put into words much of what I\u2019ve been feeling this week:\u00a0\u201c<a href=\"http:\/\/micahjmurray.com\/bill-gothard-and-duggars\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">I\u2019m Tired of Talking about Bill Gothard &amp; the Duggars.<\/a>\u201d<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p style=\"color: #444444;\"><strong style=\"font-style: inherit;\">What the gawkers and headline-makers can\u2019t comprehend is that for every scandal splashed across their glossy tabloids, there are a thousand broken lives that will never make the news.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p style=\"color: #444444;\">Sick as it is, sexual abuse sells page views. So they fire up the ol\u2019 outrage\u00a0machines and crank out a few thousand dollars worth of shock\u00a0over the latest\u00a0discovery.<\/p>\n<p style=\"color: #444444;\">But there will never be headlines for broken marriages and broken hearts, for eating disorders and suicidal depression. For innocent\u00a0faith destroyed beyond repair. You won\u2019t read in the news about years and years of therapy, about brainwashing and codependency and deprogramming. There won\u2019t be stories about the way some songs still make us get up and walk out of church services, about the thirty- and forty- and fifty-year-olds still trying to believe that their childhood hearts were loved.<\/p>\n<p style=\"color: #444444;\">This is our normal.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p style=\"color: #444444;\"><a href=\"http:\/\/micahjmurray.com\/bill-gothard-and-duggars\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Please, read the whole thing<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>Next\u00a0there\u2019s\u00a0\u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/permissiontolive\/2015\/05\/finally-heard-the-duggar-aftermath.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Finally Heard? The Duggar Aftermath<\/a>,\u201d\u00a0by Melissa.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p style=\"color: #000000;\"><a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/www.elizabethesther.com\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">We\u2019ve called out abuse<\/a>.\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/\" rel=\"external nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">We\u2019ve talked about this<\/a>. For years survivors of the fundamentalist christian homeschool movement have\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/nolongerquivering\/\" rel=\"external nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">told our stories<\/a>.\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"https:\/\/homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">We asked people to listen<\/a>, we asked people to help, we asked for some sort of\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/www.responsiblehomeschooling.org\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">protections to get put into place\u00a0<\/a>for isolated homeschooled children.\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/hsinvisiblechildren.org\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">We\u2019ve pointed out the dysfunction<\/a>\u00a0as one by one, the leaders of the movement\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/kathrynbrightbill.com\/post\/77149977952\/are-women-safe-at-patrick-henry-college\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">covered up<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/religiondispatches.org\/a-church-group-a-lawsuit-and-a-culture-of-abuse\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">scandals<\/a>\u00a0or\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/04\/doug-phillips-the-rest-of-the-story.html\" rel=\"external nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">were toppled<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"https:\/\/homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com\/2014\/02\/07\/bill-gothard-sexual-predator\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">by them<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p style=\"color: #000000;\">We were called bitter. We were told that we were the only ones, that we were alone in our experience. We were admonished that while one or two homeschooling extremists might have issues, we were sensationalizing to suggest that it was more than that. We pointed out the teachings that were considered mainstream and normal within the movement, and were told that our parents just went about it wrong, that those teachings weren\u2019t inherently problematic, just enacted badly.<\/p>\n<p style=\"color: #000000;\">Then, another outspoken member of the movement got found out as a child molester, but this time\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-josh-duggar-police-report.html\" rel=\"external nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">he also happened to be a reality TV star<\/a>. And for the first time,\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/time.com\/3897540\/19-kids-advertisers-josh-duggar\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">people seemed to hear<\/a>. Articles on\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/www.nydailynews.com\/entertainment\/gossip\/josh-duggar-sued-agency-molestation-probe-report-article-1.2237112\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">actual news sites<\/a>\u00a0finally started asking the questions, wondering if perhaps the fundamentalist quiverfull homeschool movement wasn\u2019t the wholesome cute alternative lifestyle they thought it was.\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/commentisfree\/2015\/may\/26\/josh-duggar-allegations-famous-men-benefit-of-doubt\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">Finally<\/a>, writers are\u00a0<a class=\"ext-link decorated-link\" style=\"color: #0066cc;\" title=\"\" href=\"http:\/\/www.addictinginfo.org\/2015\/05\/25\/hobby-lobby-founder-behind-counseling-child-molester-josh-duggar-received-images\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" data-wpel-target=\"_blank\" target=\"_blank\">shocked by the teachings\u00a0<\/a>we\u2019ve been trying to explain the dangers of, for years. Finally. FINALLY.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p><span style=\"color: #000000;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/permissiontolive\/2015\/05\/finally-heard-the-duggar-aftermath.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Read the rest<\/a>. It\u2019s powerful\u2014and so, so true.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Finally, blogger Elizabeth Esther reminds us that \u201c<a href=\"http:\/\/www.elizabethesther.com\/journal\/2015\/5\/27\/its-not-just-about-josh-duggar-its-about-an-entire-system-of-abuse\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">It\u2019s Not Just about Josh Duggar, It\u2019s Also about an Entire SYSTEM of Abuse.<\/a>\u201d<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p style=\"font-weight: 300; color: #211702;\">The greatest mistake we can make right now is believing that this latest exposure\u00a0of sexual assault is an isolated incident. I am here to tell you that the Christian church\u2014as a whole\u2014has a major,\u00a0<em>MAJOR<\/em>\u00a0problem with the physical and sexual abuse of children. It\u2019s time we examined not only\u00a0WHAT is happening but WHY this is happening.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.elizabethesther.com\/journal\/2015\/5\/27\/its-not-just-about-josh-duggar-its-about-an-entire-system-of-abuse\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Read on<\/a>\u2014Elizabeth Esther breaks down many of the harmful religious dynamics and abuse apologetics I\u2019ve written about here over\u00a0the\u00a0past several years, and does so with clarity and righteous anger.<\/p>\n<p>Micah J. Murray, Melissa of Permission to Live, Elizabeth Esther\u2014for\u00a0<em>years<\/em>\u00a0now\u00a0I\u2019ve been standing\u00a0beside\u00a0these bloggers, and so many others, writing and speaking out and trying to make\u00a0my voice heard. We\u00a0<em>all<\/em>\u00a0have. We are children of the movement, we have\u00a0thoughts\u00a0and experiences and concerns.\u00a0<em>And yet we\u2019ve been ignored<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re\u00a0<em>tired<\/em>\u00a0of seeing the Duggars uplifted as \u201cwholesome\u201d and \u201cgodly\u201d by people who don\u2019t know anything about ATI, who have never heard of Michael Pearl, who don\u2019t know that Vision Forum\u00a0wasn\u2019t about eyeglasses. We know the dynamics!\u00a0We lived it!\u00a0And yet, over and over, we have been dismissed. Our parents did it\u00a0<em>wrong<\/em>, the Duggars smile so they\u00a0<em>must<\/em>\u00a0be happy, and besides, how\u00a0would\u00a0we know what goes on in their house when we don\u2019t live there?<\/p>\n<p>More than anything, I\u2019m angry that the way women and children are treated within the ATI\/patriarchal homeschool subculture has been ignored and overlooked and outright dismissed for so long.<\/p>\n<p>Duggar fans find courtship\u00a0<em>quaint,<\/em> kind of weird, yes, but also\u00a0<em>refreshing<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0<em>sweet<\/em>. Do they not\u00a0realize\u00a0that the father has absolute control over the courtship process, with the ability to call it off on a whim, and that it is common for courting couples to marry without really knowing each other, because how would you, when you never have a moment of privacy? Do they not realize that the\u00a0Jill and Jessa are now expected to\u00a0<em>submit to<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0<em>obey<\/em>\u00a0their young husbands? This is not \u201crefreshing\u201d or \u201csweet\u201d or \u201cwholesome.\u201d It\u2019s\u00a0<em>oppressive<\/em>\u00a0and\u00a0<em>toxic<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>And then there\u2019s discipline! If I see one more article shocked\u2014shocked, I tell you!\u2014that the police report revealed that Duggars spank their children with a rod, I\u2019m going to\u00a0<em>scream<\/em>. In what sort of world must you live to think that the Duggars can speak at ATI conferences and promote To Train Up a Child on their website\u00a0<em>and not\u00a0use corporal punishment?!<\/em>\u00a0Of\u00a0<em>course<\/em>\u00a0they spank their children with a rod! That\u2019s completely mandatory in this subculture! Where did you think those smiles came from?! When\u00a0a \u201cbad attitude\u201d is grounds for a spanking (as per child rearing manuals the Duggars promote to this day), you learn pretty quickly to keep the corners of your mouth pointed up!<\/p>\n<p>And if the\u00a0Duggars\u00a0follow the teachings they ascribe to, they have their older children spanking the younger ones, too. Think about that for a moment.<\/p>\n<p>None of this is anything I haven\u2019t <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2012\/02\/carefully-scripted-lives-my-concerns-about-the-duggars.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">said<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/08\/an-open-letter-to-duggar-defenders.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">before<\/a>!\u00a0And it\u2019s not just me\u2014dozens of us have been talking about these things for <em>years<\/em> now. And yet <em>this<\/em> is what it took. It took Josh Duggar being outed for sexual abuse a dozen years ago. <em>This<\/em> is what it took to start the conversation.<\/p>\n<p><em>It shouldn\u2019t have taken this.\u00a0<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>For Further Reading:\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2012\/02\/carefully-scripted-lives-my-concerns-about-the-duggars.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Carefully Scripted Lives: My Concerns about the Duggars<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2014\/08\/an-open-letter-to-duggar-defenders.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">An Open Letter to Duggar Defenders<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-josh-duggar-police-report.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">What You Need to\u00a0Know about the Josh Duggar Police Report<\/a><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>None of this is anything I haven&#8217;t said before! And it&#8217;s not just me&#8212;dozens of us have been talking about these things for years now. And yet this is what it took. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":845,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[40,25],"tags":[520,181],"class_list":["post-25693","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-evangelicalism-fundamentalism","category-christian-patriarchy","tag-josh-duggar","tag-sexual-abuse"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>It Took This for People to Listen?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"None of this is anything I haven&#039;t said before! And it&#039;s not just me---dozens of us have been talking about these things for years now. And yet this is what it took.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/it-took-this-for-people-to-listen.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"It Took This for People to Listen?\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"None of this is anything I haven&#039;t said before! And it&#039;s not just me---dozens of us have been talking about these things for years now. 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College turned her world upside down, and she is today an atheist, a feminist, and a progressive. She blogs about leaving religion, her experience with the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements, the detrimental effects of the \\\"purity culture,\\\" the contradictions of conservative politics, and the importance of feminism.\",\"sameAs\":[\"http:\/\/patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/author\/libby\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"It Took This for People to Listen?","description":"None of this is anything I haven't said before! And it's not just me---dozens of us have been talking about these things for years now. 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And yet this is what it took.","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/it-took-this-for-people-to-listen.html","og_site_name":"Love, Joy, Feminism","article_published_time":"2015-05-28T04:06:25+00:00","author":"Libby Anne","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Libby Anne","Est. reading time":"8 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/it-took-this-for-people-to-listen.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/it-took-this-for-people-to-listen.html","name":"It Took This for People to Listen?","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#website"},"datePublished":"2015-05-28T04:06:25+00:00","dateModified":"2015-05-28T04:06:25+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#\/schema\/person\/fae465c1bbb5cbdf26c9e73bfd1b73d2"},"description":"None of this is anything I haven't said before! 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And yet this is what it took.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/it-took-this-for-people-to-listen.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/it-took-this-for-people-to-listen.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2015\/05\/it-took-this-for-people-to-listen.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"It Took This for People to Listen?"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/","name":"Love, Joy, Feminism","description":"","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/#\/schema\/person\/fae465c1bbb5cbdf26c9e73bfd1b73d2","name":"Libby Anne","description":"Libby Anne grew up in a large evangelical homeschool family highly involved in the Christian Right. College turned her world upside down, and she is today an atheist, a feminist, and a progressive. 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