{"id":34916,"date":"2018-02-01T05:00:35","date_gmt":"2018-02-01T09:00:35","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/?p=34916"},"modified":"2018-01-29T19:56:32","modified_gmt":"2018-01-29T23:56:32","slug":"john-piper-is-against-women-teaching-in-seminary-heres-why-that-didnt-surprise-me","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2018\/02\/john-piper-is-against-women-teaching-in-seminary-heres-why-that-didnt-surprise-me.html","title":{"rendered":"John Piper Is Against Women Teaching in Seminary—Here’s Why That Didn’t Surprise Me"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

John Piper is not a fringe theologian. He is no Doug Wilson, or Michael Pearl. When I was in college, a roommate had a book by Piper on her dorm room bookshelf. He was our\u00a0gold standard. As familiar with Piper as I am, though,\u00a0I didn\u2019t find it at all surprising when he came out, last week, against women teaching in the seminary<\/a>. Piper argued first that women are not to be pastors, and second that seminary professors hold a mentoring, pastor-like role over the future pastors they teach.<\/p>\n

The thing about Piper is that he talks a lot<\/a> about the importance of female submission in marriage. He speaks about it again and again, and his website is overflowing with guest contributor posts affirming wifely submission. He talks so much about wifely submission that at one point had to clarify that he does actually think<\/a> that women who are abused should take what\u2019s happening to them\u00a0the police. Here is how he explained his position:<\/p>\n

God himself has put law enforcement officers in place for the protection of the innocent. \u2026 A wife\u2019s submission to the authority of civil law, for Christ\u2019s sake, may, therefore, overrule her submission to a husband\u2019s demand that she endure his injuries. This legitimate recourse to civil protection may be done in a spirit that does not contradict the spirit of love and submission to her husband, for a wife may take this recourse with a heavy and humble heart that longs for her husband\u2019s repentance and the restoration of his nurturing leadership.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

A wife may tell the authorities that her husband is abusing her and even testify against him in court\u2014but she should do so \u201cin a spirit that does not contradict the spirit of love and submission other husband\u201d and \u201cwith a heavy and humble heart that longs for her husband\u2019s repentance and the restoration of his nurturing leadership.\u201d And yes, you read all that right.<\/p>\n

I would have been surprised if Piper had\u00a0said women could<\/em> teach in the seminary.<\/p>\n

Have a look at this\u00a0excerpt\u00a0from Piper\u2019s talk titled\u00a0The Beautiful Faith of Fearless Submission<\/a>:<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/p>\n

Submission is the divine calling of a wife to honor and affirm her husband\u2019s leadership and help carry it through according to her gifts<\/em>. It\u2019s the disposition to follow a husband\u2019s authority and an inclination to yield to his leadership. It is an attitude that says, \u201cI delight for you to take the initiative in our family. I am glad when you take responsibility for things and lead with love. I don\u2019t flourish in the relationship when you are passive and I have to make sure the family works.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The wife is to \u201cfollow a husband\u2019s authority\u201d and \u201cyield to his leadership\u201d\u2014in fact, it\u2019s more than that. She\u2019s to have the disposition and inclination to do those things, and an attitude that delights<\/em> in her husband taking the initiative and leading. Also, what is with this dichotomy between the husband\u00a0taking the initiative and leading, and the husband\u00a0being passive? I see this a lot in evangelical circles\u2014they assume that if the husband isn\u2019t leading, the wife is. They can\u2019t wrap their brains around a truly cooperative relationship.<\/p>\n

In another piece, Piper poses a question:\u00a0Who says \u201clet\u2019s\u201d most often<\/a>?<\/p>\n

\u201cI would say that submission means an intelligent, happy, wise support for the leadership of your husband and that means a few key things from him. This simply means you love it when he leads. And by leading \u2014 here comes the qualification so you know what you are aiming at \u2014 by leading, I don\u2019t mean he makes unilateral decisions without talking to you and caring about what you think.\u00a0\u2026\u00a0[W]hat I mean by \u201chis leadership\u201d is that he takes initiative. He says, \u201cLet\u2019s\u201d most often. That is sometimes a little thing I say to a couple. I ask: Who says, \u201cLet\u2019s\u201d most often in this relationship? And if she is the one who has to constantly say: Let\u2019s do this and let\u2019s do this and let\u2019s do this. And he is just as slough off, then that is a problem.\u201d<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

If I lived by this, I\u2019d have a serious problem. My husband is an introvert who loves being at home. If I didn\u2019t say \u201cLet\u2019s\u201d and suggest having people over, or going out, our social life would look far different. And that, at core, is the biggest issue I have with Piper\u2019s \u201ccomplementarian\u201d teachings\u2014they don\u2019t allow for individual difference. Instead, they try to force everyone into one mold\u2014or rather two, one for men and one for women. And it doesn\u2019t work like that.<\/p>\n

Piper continually says that women are happier with assertive husbands who say \u201clet\u2019s\u201d and take initiative. That is what women wants,<\/em> he tells men. They want men who will lead! Really? Piper knows what all women want?<\/p>\n

Of course, Piper\u00a0continually states that submission does not mean women should not try to change their husband\u2019s minds, or influence their decisions. Husbands should listen to their wives, he\u00a0says, and discuss things with them. Decisions should be made together\u2014except, of course, when the two cannot agree. And when that happens, the husband should always have his way.<\/p>\n

[S]ubmission means that in principle, in the rare cases where the two of you, after arguing for days about what should be done, it is a draw \u2014 and you haven\u2019t persuaded him and he hasn\u2019t persuaded you \u2014 the submissive wife says to the husband: I am going to trust you to do what is right here. And she may disagree with which way he is going. And I think they are very rare. Those situations are probably very rare. But she is going to yield in principle to whatever he says.<\/p>\n

And the reason I say \u201cin principle\u201d is because a good husband at that moment might use that privilege to go her way. He may love her. He may want to be gracious to her. He may not want to take that authority here and wield it in a direction she doesn\u2019t want to go because he loves her, and so he may just say: No, we will do it your way. But she has sent the message loud and clear to him: I will not put my foot down and say that you must do it my way. We are going to go your way, and I am going to trust you to do what is right.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I have been married for going on a decade, and it boggles my mind to imagine doing it like this.<\/p>\n

When\u00a0there is a serious disagreement in a marriage, one party is often\u00a0more invested than the other. In cases of this sort, the less invested party will often say \u201cyou decide,\u201d generally after giving full voice to their own thoughts and views on the matter. In other cases one party may be more qualified to decide on a specific issue\u2014they may have more experience. And Piper is right that the one stuck with deciding may well ultimately decide to go the direction preferred by\u00a0the other partner.<\/p>\n

But none of this\u00a0is about gender.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m trying to imagine what it would be like, in my own relationship, to make this about gender. The\u00a0feeling of an issue\u00a0being completely out of my hands, not because I chose to let my partner\u00a0decide this particular issue because he is more invested or more knowledgeable in this area, but because I have ovaries instead of testicles\u2014the very idea of it makes me feel claustrophobic.<\/p>\n

With all of his talk about women letting their husbands lead and initiate, having a \u201cspirit of submission,\u201d and\u00a0acting in a supporting role to their husbands, is it any wonder that Piper is against women teaching future pastors? No. No it is not.<\/p>\n

This is not a new problem. The leadership at the church where the AWANA Bible club I attended as a child freaked out when a woman asked to lead the high school group. Women are not to teach men in the church, see\u2014and boys in high school are basically men. I\u2019d be extremely surprised if anyone there was comfortable with women teaching in seminary. It might not be a church, but it still is spiritual instruction and leadership, and in this world those things flow one way\u2014from men to women.<\/p>\n

It really is that bad.<\/p>\n

I have a <\/b>Patreon<\/b><\/a>! Please support my writing!<\/b><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This is not a new problem. The leadership at the church where the AWANA Bible club I attended as a child freaked out when a woman asked to lead the high school group. Women are not to teach men in the church, see—and boys in high school are basically men. I’d be extremely surprised if anyone there was comfortable with women teaching in seminary. It might not be a church, but it still is spiritual instruction and leadership, and in this world those things flow one way—from men to women. <\/p>\n

Click through to read more!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":845,"featured_media":34919,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[40,25],"tags":[106,62],"class_list":["post-34916","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-evangelicalism-fundamentalism","category-christian-patriarchy","tag-marriage-2","tag-submission"],"yoast_head":"\nJohn Piper Is Against Women Teaching in Seminary---Here's Why That Didn't Surprise Me<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"In the world of conservative evangelicalism, spiritual instruction and spiritual leadership flow one way---from men to women.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" 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