{"id":38571,"date":"2018-09-05T08:37:19","date_gmt":"2018-09-05T12:37:19","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/?p=38571"},"modified":"2018-09-05T08:37:19","modified_gmt":"2018-09-05T12:37:19","slug":"when-are-young-earth-creationists-like-star-wars-fans","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/lovejoyfeminism\/2018\/09\/when-are-young-earth-creationists-like-star-wars-fans.html","title":{"rendered":"When Are Young Earth Creationists Like Star Wars Fans?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

In an article first published two years ago, Answers in Genesis founder Ken Ham asked whether creationists change<\/a>. \u201cIf creationists are unwilling to change their basic beliefs, does that mean they\u2019re not true scientists?\u201d Ham begins. Ham, of course, disagrees, but his meandering explanations and justifications reveal something about the way he views the world\u2014and science. It\u2019s all about presuppositions.<\/p>\n

Ham begins as follows:<\/p>\n

\n

When I quote secular articles claiming some new evidence that \u201crewrites\u201d certain parts of the evolutionary story, evolutionists claim this is a good thing because change is part of the self-correcting mechanism of science. In contrast, such evolutionists usually claim that creationists aren\u2019t prepared to change, and because they don\u2019t allow for any such \u201cself-correction,\u201d they aren\u2019t scientific.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This summary seems fairly accurate.<\/p>\n

Ham goes on:<\/p>\n

At the same time, I\u2019ve had to deal with creationists who don\u2019t want to change some long-held, cherished idea from outside the Bible. Even though new evidence points in a different direction, they cling to old ideas because they have used them to answer some difficult questions in the past.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

It is true that creationists sometimes disagree among themselves, and it is also true that creationists sometimes change specific teachings in order to make their beliefs fit better with findings in modern science. After it was understood that the continents were once one giant land mass, for example, creationists began to argue that an obscure verse in Genesis (\u201cTwo sons were born to Eber:\u00a0<\/span>One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided) referred to this phenomenon. \u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n

Ham goes on as follows:<\/p>\n

Both views overlook an important distinction between models and presuppositions. The best way to explain this is a real-life situation I experienced that sums up the confusion.<\/p>\n

When the Creation Museum opened in 2007, I was interviewed by a well-known evolutionist whom the BBC had contracted for a radio program. As we sat together, the conversation, as I recall it to the best of my ability, went something like this:<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n

\n

Evolutionist:<\/b> So you admit that your views about creation are based on the Bible and are set, so you are not prepared to change.<\/p>\n

Ken Ham:<\/b> I\u2019m not prepared to change anything the Bible clearly states.<\/p>\n

Evolutionist:<\/b> Your views about six literal days of creation and a global Flood are set\u2014you are not prepared to change those?<\/p>\n

Ken Ham:<\/b> I\u2019m not prepared to change anything that is stated in the Bible.<\/p>\n

Evolutionist:<\/b> See, that\u2019s religion. Your views are set. Evolutionists are real scientists because we are prepared to change our views. As we discover more evidence, our views will change\u2014that\u2019s what science does. But your views are set, because you are not about science but religion. Real scientists are prepared to change their ideas.<\/p>\n

Ken Ham:<\/b> Now, you don\u2019t believe the Bible\u2019s account of creation. You won\u2019t even consider the possibility of creation in six days, that death came after sin, that God created man from dust and woman from his side, or that there was a worldwide Flood, will you?<\/p>\n

Evolutionist:<\/b> No, of course not.<\/p>\n

Ken Ham:<\/b> Are you prepared to change that?<\/p>\n

Evolutionist:<\/b> You<\/i> are not prepared to change.<\/p>\n

Ken Ham:<\/b> I\u2019m not prepared to change what the Bible states, but creationists are<\/i> prepared to change their models built upon the Bible. On the other hand, you are not prepared to change your belief in evolution <\/span>by natural processes.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

\n

I went on to explain to this evolutionist that she, like me, had certain basic views she was not prepared to change. The same is true of every famous evolutionist, such as Bill Nye \u201cthe Science Guy.\u201d All evolutionists believe the universe and all life came about by natural processes. That\u2019s a foundational belief they are not prepared to change, no matter what the evidence.<\/p>\n

I find that many people (whether creationists or evolutionists) don\u2019t seem to understand the difference between presuppositions (foundational beliefs on which we build our worldview) and the models built on those presuppositions.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n

How nice that Ham gets to have his name but the \u201cwell-known evolutionist\u201d he debated with does not. I can only imagine that this is because Ham does not want us looking up the episode to see what the exchange actually looked like.<\/p>\n

Regardless, there is something missing from the picture Ham paints.<\/p>\n

Ham argues that both creationists and \u201cevolutionists\u201d base their models on presuppositions that they are not willing to question. The trouble is that creationists\u2019 \u201cpresuppositions,\u201d to use Ham\u2019s term, are substantively different from those used by scientists in a way Ham does not acknowledge. Creationists \u201cpresuppose\u201d that a divine being told a human thousands of years ago the story of how the world came into being. \u201cEvolutionists\u201d presuppose that we can trust our senses.<\/p>\n

These two presuppositions are very, very different. That we can trust our senses is an assumption that virtually everyone makes. It is in some sense the most basic human presupposition. If we can\u2019t<\/em> trust our senses, well, we are all<\/em> in a boatload of trouble. (The Matrix, anyone?) But presupposing that a creation story written down thousands of years ago as part of a specific culture\u2019s mythology is a true scientific description of the origins of the world\u2014that is something else entirely.<\/p>\n

Ham goes on:<\/p>\n

Now for Christians who build their thinking on the Bible, the presupposition that the Bible is the infallible Word of God and the foundation for our worldview is not subject to change. (This should be the stance of all Christians.) However, models<\/i> built on God\u2019s Word are man-made, so they\u2019re subject to change.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

In other words, Ham says, creationists presuppose that the cosmological narrative laid out in Genesis is fact. The smaller details creationists fit in around that narrative as they seek to make their beliefs look scientific, in contrast, constitute a \u201cmodel\u201d and are therefore subject to change.<\/p>\n

As Ham explains:<\/p>\n

For instance, when the famous book that started the modern creation movement\u2014The Genesis Flood<\/i>\u2014was published in 1961, it promoted a model that became very popular among creationists. Based on the authors\u2019 interpretation of Scripture regarding the second day of Creation, they proposed that the original earth was surrounded by a protective vapor canopy. This model seemed to explain many issues such as the amazing longevity of people in the pre-Flood world.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n

Now many in the next generation of biblical creationists rejected the canopy based on theological and scientific objections. What Scripture states concerning the second day of Creation (our presupposition<\/i>) has not changed, but the model<\/i> built on Scripture has changed or even been rejected by many modern creationists. (You can find out the details in \u201cThe Collapse of the Canopy Model\u201d at AnswersInGenesis.org<\/a>.)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n

This reads like an explanation of why fan theories about the size of Star Destroyers have changed over time. You know, well we thought this<\/em>, but then someone else pointed out that the physics only work if it\u2019s this other thing, and that\u2019s how we realized it had to be that<\/em>. The difference is that warsies recognize that the story they\u2019re arguing over is fiction.<\/p>\n

When I debated Bill Nye in February 2014, I publicly admitted my presupposition of building my worldview on the Bible. I challenged Bill Nye to admit publicly his presupposition of building his thinking on evolutionary naturalism.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\n

However, as is usual for evolutionists, he would not admit his starting point of naturalism. He kept insisting his view was \u201cscience.\u201d That\u2019s why I kept emphasizing that there\u2019s a big difference between historical science (our interpretations based on beliefs <\/i>about the past, such as God\u2019s revelation in the Bible concerning origins) and observational science (knowledge we can gain through direct\u00a0observation<\/i>, using one\u2019s senses, and based on repeatable testing in the present).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I\u2019m going to call curtains here, because the rest of the article becomes more and more repetitive. But I\u2019ll address this claim first.<\/p>\n

Nye\u2019s \u201cpresuppositions\u201d are the same presuppositions everyone else holds\u2014that we can trust our senses. That isn\u2019t something we have to justify, except perhaps at a sci-fi conference. True, Ham claims that Nye holds \u201cevolutionary naturalism\u201d as a presupposition\u2014not just trust in one\u2019s senses\u2014but Ham also thinks that study of the earth\u2019s geological past is not based on observation and one\u2019s senses, so this equivocation is perhaps not surprising.<\/p>\n

The underlying issue is this: Ham has predetermined his conclusion from the outset, and he presumes that his scientific opponents have done the same.\u00a0There\u2019s a very big difference between an individual trusting the validity of a theory based on observation, testing, and confirmation from every branch of science, on the one hand, and an individual that a Bronze Age creation story is scientific reality before even looking at the actual scientific evidence, on the other.<\/p>\n

Ham concludes with this statement:<\/p>\n

So the question then comes down to whose presuppositions are correct.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Unfortunately, that is where the argument will always end when arguing with a young earth creationist who also uses Ham\u2019s presuppositional apologetics. The reason I changed my position\u2014-and I was once a young earth creationist\u2014is because a lot of the creationist literature I read was pre-Ham, and it claimed to be based not on presuppositions but on solid evidence. I believed that, and was willing to follow evidence and not dig in my heels on \u201cpresuppositions.\u201d<\/p>\n

Ham finishes by offering several examples of \u201cmajor questions creationists are investigating\u201d in the present. \u201cAs\u00a0our understanding increases, these models are subject to change,\u201d he writes. \u201cBut the truths of Scripture never change.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

How can starlight travel millions of light-years to earth if God created stars six thousand years ago?<\/h3>\n

Today light travels at a fixed speed (only one \u201clight-year\u201d per year). Creation astronomers have proposed several models to explain how light from distant stars traveled here. A recent view proposes that God caused space to expand quickly on Day Four like He caused plants to sprout (Hebrew dasha<\/i>) on Day Three.<\/p>\n

How could miles of ice pile up during the Ice Age?<\/h3>\n

Today\u2019s ice sheets are mostly cold deserts, where little snow falls. Creationists propose that the warm oceans after the Flood produced the right conditions for heavy, sustained snowfall. Some believe the whole process took only a few centuries.<\/p>\n

How did so many animal species arise after the Ark landed?<\/h3>\n

The earth has over two million species today. Creation biologists recognize that God placed within each created \u201ckind\u201d immense variability to produce all these species. If the \u201ckinds\u201d are roughly equivalent to modern scientific \u201cfamilies,\u201d Noah needed only around 1,500 kinds of air-breathing land animals on the Ark.<\/p>\n

How many fossil layers could have been deposited during the Flood?<\/h3>\n

Floods produce only a few feet of deposits today. Creation geologists are studying the fossil layers to find out how many were deposited during the Flood, and which came afterward. Some believe the topmost Flood layers are the ones with dinosaurs (Cretaceous), and the higher layers (Tertiary) were deposited later.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This is not how science works. It is, however, exactly<\/em> how Star Wars forums work.<\/p>\n

I have a <\/b>Patreon<\/b><\/a>! Please support my writing!<\/b><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The underlying issue is this: Ham has predetermined his conclusion from the outset, and he presumes that his scientific opponents have done the same.\u00a0There’s a very big difference between an individual trusting the validity of a theory based on observation, testing, and confirmation from every branch of science, on the one hand, and an individual that a Bronze Age creation story is scientific reality before even looking at the actual scientific evidence, on the other.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Click through to read more!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":845,"featured_media":38606,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[40],"tags":[157,238,722],"class_list":["post-38571","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-evangelicalism-fundamentalism","tag-creationism","tag-evolution","tag-young-earth-creationism"],"yoast_head":"\nWhen Are Young Earth Creationists Like Star Wars Fans?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"This is not how science works. 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