{"id":100950,"date":"2017-08-11T00:57:33","date_gmt":"2017-08-11T07:57:33","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/?p=100950"},"modified":"2017-08-09T21:04:03","modified_gmt":"2017-08-10T04:04:03","slug":"reader-writes-questions","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html","title":{"rendered":"A reader writes with some questions…"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\u2026and I stumble along trying to help as best I can. \u00a0Sez he:<\/p>\n

I\u2019m working through your book and enjoy it very much.\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to send you dozens of emails and ask you tons of questions, but I\u2019m hoping you can point me in the right direction on this one specific item. \u00a0 Briefly, I born in 1957, I\u2019m married, we have 5 children all grown up now and all married and now with several grandchildren.\u00a0 I was raised Catholic, my parents were very devout and my wife was raised Catholic. \u00a0 I went to a Catholic grade school for 8 years, we raised all our kids Catholic and were very devout in practicing our faith.\u00a0 In the mid 90\u2019s we left the Catholic church (for too many reasons to go into here) and have been attending an evangelical church with a heavy emphasis on Reformed theology. \u00a0(think Gospel Coalition, John Piper, RC Sproul etc)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Okay.<\/p>\n

I have been on a spiritual journey the past two years and considering coming back into the Catholic church.\u00a0 I have been reading books, listening to hours and hours (well over a hundred) of videos and debates and such with all the folks from Catholic Answers and listened to dozens and dozens of The Journey Home programs with Marcus Grodi, reading through several books, the early church fathers and on and on.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I am trying to work through all my questions very much like you wrote in your book By What Authority<\/em><\/a>\u00a0 (again, I think you did a great job of \u201cthinking out loud\u201d if you will, in the book.)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Thanks be to God!<\/p>\n

I\u2019m working through many\u00a0questions on topics on the real presence, on sola scriptura, on the authority of the pope and such, I\u2019m still not totally sure on these things, but I\u2019m having a hard time with something that if you can direct me to some books I would be extremely grateful.\u00a0 I have two friends who, like me, left the catholic church around the same time we left.\u00a0 They both are now in what I would\u00a0 call \u201cthe organic church.\u201d\u00a0 They are followers of people like Jon Zens, Frank Viola, George Barna and many more.\u00a0 I read one of their \u201crecommended\u201d books \u201d they gave me called \u201cThe Reformers and Their stepchildren\u201d (I read it twice in fact, once about two years ago and again when I started on this journey.\u00a0 They have other books and articles they promote such as Pagan Christianity by Viola, and \u201csearching together\u201d with Jon Zens.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Barna is the only one of these I have even heard of.\u00a0 I can\u2019t speak to this much till have a clearer idea what they mean by their jargon.\u00a0 As a Catholic, I will confess my amusement at \u201cPagan Christianity\u201d since that, of course, has been the great charge leveled at Catholics since the Reformation, and most especially by Fundamentalists.\u00a0 Like C.S. Lewis and, especially, Chesterton I have never understood what was so bad about the paganism that has been preserved by Catholic culture.\u00a0 We\u2019d be a poorer place without Christmas trees and maypoles.\u00a0 I\u2019m glad some Protestants are seeing the goodness there.\u00a0 As Chesterton observed, the last thing pagans did was ask for baptism. \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n

Here\u2019s the one major objection that I\u2019m having trouble with.\u00a0 These above authors make the usual claim for what early church was like (and yes, much they get from \u201cthe bible\u201d which I understand more and more is a problem in itself just as you so well pointed out). \u00a0These \u201corganic church authors\u201d quote many biblical scholars and seem to give a lot of evidence to what the early church was \u201creally\u201d like.\u00a0 Again, this email is already longer than I wish it to be, but I\u2019ve listened to Dr William Marshner\u2019s\u00a0 talk on The Coming Home Network on \u201chow do we know the early church\u201d but in that talk he only briefly touches on the material.\u00a0\u00a0 I\u2019ve read Ignatius of Antioch, I\u2019ve read Clement of Rome, I\u2019ve read the didache, I\u2019ve read the Epistle of Barnabas and others\u2026but when I read those I think to myself \u201cwell maybe that was just a particular group at that time\u2026or maybe some thought as these Fathers did but not the majority or not all the churches\u2026\u201d\u00a0 Its still fuzzy in my head and I haven\u2019t been able to sort it out and get clarity on it.\u00a0 So I\u2019m writing to ask if you can you send me a list of some books or authors or articles you would think would be find helpful and get me started in this. \u00a0\u00a0 Has anyone written a rebuttal to Frank Viola\u2019s Pagan Christianity\u201d or this whole idea of this spirit flowing early church.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I don\u2019t know Viola so I don\u2019t know what he claims.\u00a0 The tendency in some circles is to try to paint every heretical sect as just an \u201calternative Christianity\u201d with the orthodox Christians winning and writing the histories.\u00a0 I don\u2019t see how to maintain a coherent account of the faith if we take that road.\u00a0 It is obvious to me, at any rate, that there is a remarkable coherence to the early Church, just as there is to the Catholic Church today.\u00a0 Yes, of course, there is squabbling and there are figures like Tertullian who wander off into the weeds.<\/p>\n

But what really sticks out about the Church is the Lenny Bruce Test, which works just as well in antiquity as it does now.\u00a0 Bruce (a Jew) remarked that there is only one \u201cThe Church\u201d.\u00a0 When you say \u201cthe Church\u201d in antiquity you mean only one thing: that body of believers in union with the bishops in succession from the apostles and in union with Peter.\u00a0 Every other sect operates in response to and reaction to that.\u00a0 They are margarine, it is butter.\u00a0 They claim to be just as good as the Church.\u00a0 The Church never bothers with needing to prove it is just as much from Jesus as they are.<\/p>\n

I hope that is helpful.\u00a0 Again, not knowing Viola I\u2019m not sure I\u2019m scratching where you itch.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\u2026and I stumble along trying to help as best I can. \u00a0Sez he: I\u2019m working through your book and enjoy it very much.\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to send you dozens of emails and ask you tons of questions, but I\u2019m hoping you can point me in the right direction on this one specific item. \u00a0 […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":92,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[8],"class_list":["post-100950","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-mailbag"],"yoast_head":"\nA reader writes with some questions...<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"...and I stumble along trying to help as best I can. \u00a0Sez he: I'm working through your book and enjoy it very much.\u00a0 I'm not going to send you dozens of\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"A reader writes with some questions...\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"...and I stumble along trying to help as best I can. \u00a0Sez he: I'm working through your book and enjoy it very much.\u00a0 I'm not going to send you dozens of\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Catholic and Enjoying It!\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2017-08-11T07:57:33+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2017-08-10T04:04:03+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Mark Shea\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Mark Shea\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"5 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html\",\"name\":\"A reader writes with some questions...\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2017-08-11T07:57:33+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2017-08-10T04:04:03+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/c1a9ac1e557d3c626974fd6692818ad5\"},\"description\":\"...and I stumble along trying to help as best I can. \u00a0Sez he: I'm working through your book and enjoy it very much.\u00a0 I'm not going to send you dozens of\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"A reader writes with some questions…\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/\",\"name\":\"Catholic and Enjoying It!\",\"description\":\"Mark Shea's Blog: So That No Thought of Mine, No Matter How Stupid, Should Ever Go Unpublished Again!\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/c1a9ac1e557d3c626974fd6692818ad5\",\"name\":\"Mark Shea\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f287911f45adc932ad24ddbae3597ed5?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f287911f45adc932ad24ddbae3597ed5?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Mark Shea\"},\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/author\/markshea\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"A reader writes with some questions...","description":"...and I stumble along trying to help as best I can. \u00a0Sez he: I'm working through your book and enjoy it very much.\u00a0 I'm not going to send you dozens of","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"A reader writes with some questions...","og_description":"...and I stumble along trying to help as best I can. \u00a0Sez he: I'm working through your book and enjoy it very much.\u00a0 I'm not going to send you dozens of","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html","og_site_name":"Catholic and Enjoying It!","article_published_time":"2017-08-11T07:57:33+00:00","article_modified_time":"2017-08-10T04:04:03+00:00","author":"Mark Shea","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Mark Shea","Est. reading time":"5 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html","name":"A reader writes with some questions...","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#website"},"datePublished":"2017-08-11T07:57:33+00:00","dateModified":"2017-08-10T04:04:03+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/c1a9ac1e557d3c626974fd6692818ad5"},"description":"...and I stumble along trying to help as best I can. \u00a0Sez he: I'm working through your book and enjoy it very much.\u00a0 I'm not going to send you dozens of","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2017\/08\/reader-writes-questions.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"A reader writes with some questions…"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/","name":"Catholic and Enjoying It!","description":"Mark Shea's Blog: So That No Thought of Mine, No Matter How Stupid, Should Ever Go Unpublished Again!","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/c1a9ac1e557d3c626974fd6692818ad5","name":"Mark Shea","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f287911f45adc932ad24ddbae3597ed5?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f287911f45adc932ad24ddbae3597ed5?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Mark Shea"},"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/author\/markshea"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/100950","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/92"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=100950"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/100950\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=100950"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=100950"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=100950"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}