{"id":111640,"date":"2019-05-13T00:26:19","date_gmt":"2019-05-13T07:26:19","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/?p=111640"},"modified":"2019-05-06T17:44:15","modified_gmt":"2019-05-07T00:44:15","slug":"a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html","title":{"rendered":"A Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

They write:<\/p>\n

In the past, you\u2019ve written a lot about lying, specifically exploring edge cases, questions of \u201cthe right to know the truth,\u201d and the fact that lying is always materially wrong. I think you\u2019ve approached the subject in a very reasonable and Catholic way.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Thank you.<\/p>\n

I know people have raised the issue of undercover police officers, spies, etc. but you haven\u2019t deep-dived on those concerns in the past \u2014 understandably, since most of the time people aren\u2019t asking in good faith, they\u2019re just desperate to justify the lies that Their Side wants to say are okay.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Yeah.<\/p>\n

However, I genuinely DO find myself in situations where my job involves misleading people and assuming fake identities. I\u2019m a security consultant, and one of the things I sometimes do in my job is what\u2019s called a \u201cred team\u201d assessment where my colleagues and I simulate a break-in. Sometimes these engagements involve running phishing campaigns or social engineering where we try to trick employees into downloading malware or giving us credentials.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Okay.<\/p>\n

My question is: is this lying? And if so, is it materially sinful?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

It sounds<\/em> like it\u2019s lying at first blush.\u00a0 And if so, then Thomas would say yes, it\u2019s sinful<\/a>\u2014likely a venial sin, like most lying.\u00a0 But then again, something in my bones also suspects it\u2019s not the same kind of speech act as, for instance, the lying for Jesus scenarios of which the prolife movement has become so passionately enamored in the past decade.\u00a0 So I\u2019m not sure.<\/p>\n

The question turns on whether what you describe is lying or something else.\u00a0 If it is, then yes, it\u2019s sinful.\u00a0 If it\u2019s not, then it may well be morally legit. The difference between that and what the Liars for Jesus in the Christianist Cult of Trump advocate is that they eagerly support lying with abandon if they think they can gain power by it and then try to legitimize it by saying the ends justify the means, a moral position categorically condemned by the Church ever since Paul wrote Romans 3:8. That you are taking such care to discover the distinction between the diabolical sophistry of the Christianist Liars for Jesus and the Church\u2019s teaching speaks very well of you.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m not going to reason about culpability & gravity, because those will vary by circumstance. I also see how undercover work could be a near occasion of sin for some people, or form bad habits that they find hard to shake even outside of work\u2026 but since that\u2019s a specific concern aimed at particular peoples\u2019 personalities and weaknesses, I don\u2019t know that it works as the foundation for a universal rule.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Okay.<\/p>\n

My instinct is that there\u2019s probably some nuance that makes deception in good faith not <\/em>lying. It seems ridiculous to claim that testing people\u2019s security awareness by simulating attacks is *evil*. But I can\u2019t reason my way to the conclusion I expect without lapsing into consequentialism. And I definitely don\u2019t want to shoehorn my logic to fit pre-determined conclusions just because they\u2019re convenient.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I am not a moral theologian, nor do I play one on the internet.\u00a0 I\u2019m giving you my personal impression and my personal reaction, based on how I would navigate this in light of the Church\u2019s teaching if I were in your shoes.\u00a0 So don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m passing judgment on you.\u00a0 I\u2019m not.\u00a0 And I may be missing something here.\u00a0 My prima facie<\/em> impression is that deceiving people about who you are is lying. However, if your workers have been informed that they will be subjected to assessments that will include the sorts of things you are doing, it could be argued that what you are doing is closer to role playing or acting, which is a different moral category altogether and is not lying since there is a social contract between the actor and the audience in which the audience understands that they are, if you will, agreeing to let themselves be \u2018deceived\u2019 via willing suspension of disbelief.<\/p>\n

This is not precisely the same as the contract between the worker and the company who have hired you.\u00a0 But there is a quality of \u2018you have been warned\u2019 if we assume the company has told the worker that they will be subjected to assessments and tests like these.\u00a0 So on second thought, I wonder if I am wrong here.\u00a0 Bottom line, I\u2019m not sure.<\/p>\n

Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both \u2018yes\u2019 and \u2018no\u2019. \u2013 JRR Tolkien.<\/em><\/p>\n

What have solid theologians and philosophers had to say on this? How might I reason with this edge case?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I have no idea what real moral theologians and philosophers have said about such situations.\u00a0 But you might contact, for instance, Christopher Tollefson<\/a>, who is a real moral philosopher and who has written extensively\u2014and rightly\u2014about the immorality of lying to see what he has to say about this particular situation. He did brilliant work refuting the Christianist Liars for Jesus back in 2011 and writes with real integrity.\u00a0 \u00a0If he answers you, I would be interested in hearing what he has to say.<\/p>\n

Also to clarify: I\u2019m not asking for spiritual direction or how I should proceed in my unique circumstances. I\u2019m just interested to hear your take on it as a hypothetical, philosophical question.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Excellent.\u00a0 Understood.<\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

They write: In the past, you\u2019ve written a lot about lying, specifically exploring edge cases, questions of \u201cthe right to know the truth,\u201d and the fact that lying is always materially wrong. I think you\u2019ve approached the subject in a very reasonable and Catholic way. Thank you. I know people have raised the issue of […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":92,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[8],"class_list":["post-111640","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-mailbag"],"yoast_head":"\nA Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"They write: In the past, you've written a lot about lying, specifically exploring edge cases, questions of "the right to know the truth," and the fact\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"A Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"They write: In the past, you've written a lot about lying, specifically exploring edge cases, questions of "the right to know the truth," and the fact\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Catholic and Enjoying It!\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2019-05-13T07:26:19+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2019-05-07T00:44:15+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Mark Shea\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Mark Shea\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"4 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html\",\"name\":\"A Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2019-05-13T07:26:19+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2019-05-07T00:44:15+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/c1a9ac1e557d3c626974fd6692818ad5\"},\"description\":\"They write: In the past, you've written a lot about lying, specifically exploring edge cases, questions of \\\"the right to know the truth,\\\" and the fact\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"A Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/\",\"name\":\"Catholic and Enjoying It!\",\"description\":\"Mark Shea's Blog: So That No Thought of Mine, No Matter How Stupid, Should Ever Go Unpublished Again!\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/c1a9ac1e557d3c626974fd6692818ad5\",\"name\":\"Mark Shea\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f287911f45adc932ad24ddbae3597ed5?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f287911f45adc932ad24ddbae3597ed5?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Mark Shea\"},\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/author\/markshea\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"A Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work","description":"They write: In the past, you've written a lot about lying, specifically exploring edge cases, questions of \"the right to know the truth,\" and the fact","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"A Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work","og_description":"They write: In the past, you've written a lot about lying, specifically exploring edge cases, questions of \"the right to know the truth,\" and the fact","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html","og_site_name":"Catholic and Enjoying It!","article_published_time":"2019-05-13T07:26:19+00:00","article_modified_time":"2019-05-07T00:44:15+00:00","author":"Mark Shea","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Mark Shea","Est. reading time":"4 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html","name":"A Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#website"},"datePublished":"2019-05-13T07:26:19+00:00","dateModified":"2019-05-07T00:44:15+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/c1a9ac1e557d3c626974fd6692818ad5"},"description":"They write: In the past, you've written a lot about lying, specifically exploring edge cases, questions of \"the right to know the truth,\" and the fact","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/2019\/05\/a-reader-has-an-interesting-poser-about-the-morality-of-security-work.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"A Reader Has an Interesting Poser About the Morality of Security Work"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/","name":"Catholic and Enjoying It!","description":"Mark Shea's Blog: So That No Thought of Mine, No Matter How Stupid, Should Ever Go Unpublished Again!","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/c1a9ac1e557d3c626974fd6692818ad5","name":"Mark Shea","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f287911f45adc932ad24ddbae3597ed5?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/f287911f45adc932ad24ddbae3597ed5?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Mark Shea"},"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/author\/markshea"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/111640","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/92"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=111640"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/111640\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=111640"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=111640"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/markshea\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=111640"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}