Mom’s Cycle Was on the Family Calender

Mom’s Cycle Was on the Family Calender January 5, 2014

by Lana Hope cross posted from her blog Wide Open Ground

I did not realize it was a homeschool thing. Or just a conservative thing. Or unique to some families.

I thought almost every man er family tracked mom’s cycle, and all the daughter’s cycles too.

Libby Anne recently wrote a post on Charting Your (Wife’s) Monthy Cycle. Here’s what she says:

[Michael Pearl] recently advised young husbands to track their wives’ cycles so they would know in advance when their wives were going to go all hormonal and ballistic on them—when it was their time of the month. Most of those who commented responded in horror to Michael’s suggestion, and I was horrified too—but in my case I was also struck by the familiarity.

My father tracks my mother’s cycle on his own personal calendar.

I read her paragraph two times just to see if I read this correctly. Does Libby Anne’s readers not find tracking your wife’s cycle familiar?

Every day I learn something new about other families. Because I thought EVERY FAMILY.

As a kid, my dad tracked my mom’s cycle on the family calendar.

Oh yes.

There were a couple of reasons for this. First of all, Bill Gothard actually teaches this. And my dad got validation from Gothard (and as I found out from Libby Anne, from the Pearl’s too).

In his 1986 volume, Research in Principles of Life Advance Seminar Textbook, on page 170-171, Gothard suggests “that a man keep track of his wife’s menstrual cycle and use it as a reminder of the sufferings and death of Jesus, then quotes Isaiah 53:4-5. ”

Second, my dad told us that he needed to prepare himself for the worst. He used to joke around, “It’s day 20, it’s time for me to go out of town.” Folks, my mom’s period was on the DANG CALENDAR.

Oh, gosh, I was traumatized by it.

By the time I was a teen and had regular cycles,  not only would I not tell my parents when I was having my period, but also I would hide all evidence that I was having it. For example, if I left behind trash in the bathroom trash can, and one or the other of my parents saw it (which did happen, and yes mom watches the trash can apparently), I would be mocked and teased.

So I had to get better and better at hiding it. With the small house and number of people, I’d have to sneak out to dump my trash in the middle of the night because during the day, I could not get the trash out of the house without somebody noticing.

Literally, I was terrified that one of my parents might discover I was having my period because I did not want to go through what my mom did.

Every time I was stood up to my mom, Dad asked if I was having my period (as far as this goes, Mom would too). I would want to smack him back and say, “No, Mom was really rude to me.”

Then he’d just say she was having her period, and I should be more nice.

Honestly, yes, crazy

So Libby Anne’s post reminded me that maybe this is crazy logic coming out of certain families, or from certain teachers, such as Bill Gothard and Michael Pearl. But maybe it’s not everyone.

What did your dads do?

Comments open below

Read everything by Lana Hope!

Lana Hope was homeschooled 1st-12th grade in a small town and rural culture. Involved in ATI, her life growing up was gendered, sheltered, and with a lot of shame and rules in disguise of Biblical principles and character qualities. After college Lana moved to SE Asia and began working with the abused, and upon discovering that the large world is not at all like she had been taught, she finally questioned it all, from Calvinism to the homeschool movement to the foundation of her Christian faith. Today Lana is a Christian Universalist, holds a B.A. in English, and is currently working on a M.A. in philosophy.  She blogs about the struggles she has faced leaving fundamentalism and homeschooling behind and how travel and missions has wrecked her life for good and bad at her blog

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  • Allison the Great

    So in that fucked up little fundie world, not only does a woman not have the right to make decisions, but she doesn’t have the right to privacy either? And they tell us that feminists hate women. Riiiiiiight. In that world women are nothing but sex dolls who raise the kids and clean the house. She doesn’t get to vote, choose what she does with her life or spare time (shit, she never gets any spare time) and now she doesn’t even get to keep her period to her damn self? What the hell is wrong with the men in this movement for them to think that doing this to women is okay, that women deserve this, and they should live a life like this “with joy”? I think that Fundamentalist patriarchy is a mental disease. There is something seriously wrong with a man who views women the way they do.

  • Astrin Ymris

    When I read the title, my first thought was that the reason was so Dad could make sure to “offer” marital sex on his wife’s most-likely-to-be-fertile days.

    Of course, I’d just found this ‘The Onion’ satire today, which may have turned my mind in that direction:,33891/?ref=auto

  • This is officially one of the sickest things I’ve encountered via the Gothard movement. What the heck?

  • Theo Darling

    My family couldn’t do this because we were too repressed to talk about periods at all. Like, no-one-even-warned-me-ahead-of-time didn’t talk about it.

  • Oh dear. I’m thinking about the movie Carrie now, and the line, “You never told me. I thought I was dying!”

  • Trollface McGee

    I’ve read about this on Libby’s blog and it’s still mind-boggling. I think my dad would die of embarrassment if he were asked to do such a thing. It’s just so private.
    It gets even worse with the fundie trope that women on their periods are emotional freaks that need to be ignored because of their crazy lady hormones.

  • texcee

    Ewwww….. I feel the need to wash my hands thoroughly and apply liberal amounts of anti-germ gel. This is one of the ickiest things I’ve ever read!

  • My family too, Theo. Nobody mentioned it prior to it starting, but my mom mentioned it when I slipped up and left a sanitary product where someone may see it in the trash, ad then she talked of me being “sick” and that I should not let anyone know.
    I was very happy when, at age 19, I read in a women’s magazine about the biology behind it, and found I did not have a strange disease, just healthy ovaries! I was even happier when, at about age 23, someone actually asked me about this thing I should not talk about, found out I get bad stomach cramps when I start to menstruate, and suggested I use a regular multivitamin formulated for women. With my vitamin deficiency solved, the cramps were gone for the most part. I wish I spoke of it sooner.

  • tulips

    Tragic really. We moved into what must be part of the fundie cardio vascular system because we really had to ~look~ to find a good fit for our oldest daughter re ob/gyn. Almost every one of them assumed if a parent was seeking these sorts of services it must be because some sort of crisis has occurred (because unfortunately the environment supports that outcome). We had to look long and hard to find one who understood that as our daughter stood on the precipice of needing to take responsibility for her health, we wanted to pave that road so smoothly that she felt completely entitled and comfortable getting her information and resources from her OB/GYN and having that not be a big deal at all. Our desire was for her to view it as simply another self care activity like going to the dentist. I find it absolutely scandalous that people are so reluctant to grant a woman privacy and autonomy.

  • Saraquill

    Shedding the lining of my uterus is not the same as being tortured to death, Gothard you twit.

  • Saraquill

    That’s appalling.

  • Nightshade

    Would take some serious dysmenorrhea for that to be anywhere near a reasonable comparison.

  • eyes wide open

    My husband did this too…and we’ve never been near Gothard! Doug was just trying to be nicer around PMS days…you chicks DO understand PMS don’t you?
    Heck, I LOVED it when one of my kids told me about Dad’s calendar! I then knew why he’d by me chocholate, flowers or take me out for a fancy meal all those times! IDK why you’ve jumped on this one but I’m happy my man cared enough to pamper me and intercede when a hormonal teenager or spastic baby went off around me on days they had no idea how close they were to getting their necks snapped! :-D. You need to try to see the GOOD in things and stop all this hate and negativity! If you had shy parents or horrible sicko parents that’s no ones fault but theirs or how they were raised. Chill out on ppl who YOU THINK are “different” or you choose to disagree with! Live and let live!! ♥

  • Edie Moore McGee

    FWIW, I grew up in the middle of fundie land, and was never afforded any sort of care in that respect as a teen for precisely the reasons you identify. “Good Christian girls” didn’t need annual exams. When I was 23 and working (with health insurance) and had what they thought might be an overian cyst, the doctors were shocked that I’d never had an exam.

  • tulips

    See, that’s exactly what we were trying to avoid. The thought of our daughter being in her mid twenties before she’s comfortable (really comfortable) taking care of herself just chills me to the bone. What a vulnerable position to put her into. So many opportunities for that to go wrong. I want to establish that relationship prior to her having to initiate. I’d like her to have good experiences with good doctors to set the standard/expectation so that the occasional bad experience doesn’t become an inhibitor if that makes sense.

  • Theo Darling

    SO DID I. I managed to hide all the evidence for at least three freaked-out months, and when my mother did find out, all she said was, “That’s menstruation and it’ll happen every month.” Thank god for dictionaries, amirite?

  • $190147

    You know, this is JMO, but I’m pretty sure he’s talking about his sufferings, not yours.

  • Serena763

    Creepy..and gross! I’m fortunate my Dad opted out of the fundie life and got snipped after I was born..and also took a job on the road to get away. My Mom refused to take birth control for her endometriosis and after years of having horrible cycles and suffering (b/c it was God’s will) she ended up getting cysts and having her ovaries removed. When I started my cycle I was in terrible pain and constantly on my period. My Mom refused to put me on birth control since naturally it would “turn me into a whore”. Several years later my Dad was home from work and I was puking and rolling around on the floor unable to walk from the pain…after some yelling and screaming she finally relented and took me to the OBGYN. Ugh…

  • Sandy

    That was what I was thinking also, he was keeping track of her period so hebwould know she was ready to breed. I am surprised that he wad not advising young men to keep track of the color and feel of her vaginal emissions.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Now, that’s more how I was taking it. And this is not strange-it’s a great idea, if it’s for that reason (to know my lover’s mood shifts ahead of time to not set her off-and if you saw her “off” you’d say “definitely, get the calendar”.

    (following is more of a general comment to the comments I read, not necessarily to you eyes wide):

    And women should certainly not feel guilty or ashamed, or hesitant even to ask their lover to buy them tampax or whatever they use at the store-I”m always shocked when men are so weak and embarassed. Same with women with their pregnancies-giving it all up to a man’s hands usually-giving birth on the back, ridiculous…. except very convenient for the doctor… all that nesting, only to agree to be ripped out of it and set to a cold room instead. And if you circumcised, yes then feel guilty.

    Lastly…. women should not let men make them feel lonely, ashamed, embarrassed, etc.. . about their periods IF they dont treat their man’s semen as yucky, etc. otherwise we should all buy all the stupid christian standards and women will be the property they ask to be anytime they support such traditions.

  • My mom tracked hers on the calendar too, but nobody made any jokes about it or even brought it up at all. Far as I could tell, she just hated getting surprised by her period, same as anyone would. It’s too bad people have to take something useful and twist it into something disgusting.

  • Astrin Ymris

    There’s a significant difference between a man tracking his wife’s cycle privately and his publicly recording it on the FAMILY CALENDAR– and making snide, demeaning remarks about it to boot.

    He had no right to do that. If his wife wanted her period recorded for all to see alongside choir practice and dentist appointments, she would have put it up herself. His doing so was a humiliating, misogynistic control tactic. Lana’s getting “mocked and teased” whenever she had a period shows that.

  • Nea

    I can’t figure out if this is meant to be a hilarious parody or straight-faced, so here’s your Poe award just in case.

    If you are serious, the reason we’re not living and let living is BECAUSE THIS WORLDVIEW DOES NOT LET US LIVE. Not when it tells kids they are chattel and girls they’ll never be more than chattel, ever.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Wow Lolly, you’re very very bitter and obviously adhere strictly to fatalism as you do indeed come across as a victim, but only of yourself.

    I can read asshole on everything too if I want. Anyone can do that, it’s hardly special. Further, you know nothing of my motives, nor my relationship with my lover.But while you may be common in your typical read mysogyny wherever possible you’re so lost in it…. my lover and I discuss it. She pointed out recently, “I think everyone has some degree of misogyny and misandry.” And she’s completely right. And the mothers do it to sons, and the sons to their wives, and the cycle has no single cause-but a collective one. So, it’s in your life, do something about it. We are.

    In regard to your other slurs, they deserve no respect, as they are baseless and only reveal you a bigot.

    NO ACTION HAS A VALUE BY ITS OWN ACCORD. ONLY INTENT DETERMINES THE TRUE NATURE OF ANY ACTION. (if you knew that, maybe you wouldnt be so unhappy)

    I do notice you avoided addressing the double standard, how bold of you! So not one argument, just a bunch of assumptions? For example, usually sexually, she’s the dominant one, and i prefer to be told.

    So forget that future in forensics. If you really think everyone is like you, and nobody can teach you anything, what do you do in life to improve things? I mean it just sounds so… static.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    not immediately, how clever you don’t count it when you do it-you’d be the immediately, I had a comment before that.. no names, you started that.

    Anyway, you never ever addressed my arguments, so you lose, Sorry make it shorter, life’s too short for long you.

  • quietglow

    PMS is not a scientifically verified thing. It’s pop culture. Some women have mood shifts, some don’t. Some do only some months.
    Some find menstruation very difficult, some barely notice. A lot of women don’t like their partners viewing them as volatile sacks of emotion. It’s demeaning.

    The usual approach is “am I strangely emotional? Oh, is it X week out of the month?” and not “it’s X week, you must be irrational.” If I found out my partner were operating on “it’s just your crazy time, you need to be coddled, placated, and not taken seriously” I would pack and leave any week out of the four.

    I’m also a little troubled by that blithe “snap the necks of spastic babies” reference of yours. That’s, uh. I’ve never had a woman tell me her period made her more likely to abuse children.

  • quietglow

    Could you restate your point a little more directly, please?

  • Astrin Ymris

    I repeat: It’s for the affected woman HERSELF to decide whether she wants to record her menstrual cycle on the family calendar (Most women record it on a private calendar.)

    Her husband doing so on the family calendar, where the entire family (and possibly casual visitors) could see it was intrusive and humiliating enough. Making demeaning remarks based on this information camouflaged as “jokes” based on it was mean-spirited misogyny.

  • Nightshade

    Right. Some women prefer privacy that way, others don’t care if everyone around knows and actually make jokes themselves of it.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Lolly, no tampons had nothing to do with it. it was a sexual double standard. I’m not feeding you anymore though until you indicate you read something I wrote in the spirit it was written. You don’t know me, and it’s not my duty to correct all your projections and specters.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Certainly, I had a few. i’ll try to be succinct. That women promote misogyny as much if not more than men. My hospital comment is actually very well educated, Lolly isn’t or she’d know it’s the most unnatural way for a woman to give birth-but doctors with uteruses (uteri?) do it the same, so do bogus midwifes. Women gave up their ownership of it, and their strength in it. Now how bout the period-in America, shame is not uncommon, “dirty” and so on, and it’s not some rumor you do it to each other, to your daughters, as your mother did to you, and so on.
    Well-i meant to be succinct. But to boil it all down, there are no fingers to point. One is either changing things for the better in their life, or they are the problem. And as my lover said, “we all have a little misandry and misogyny, we all have both. . Culture is us, so we can change it. If you take anything, take that :)”

    Also, notice women who pretend-but really make things worse. Taking honest comments that have no ill will mistaken or hidden, or otherwise… and twists them into an outrage-simply because I’m the nearest man? then stand back and let the impassioned people work I say 🙂

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Oh ya, and on this issue- I thiink the thimble ringer is way off. THis is one of the ones where youve been pushed into a corner every time. Told “we dont want to know” “its icky go away come back when over” (Native Americans did that!

    So to me this is the flow of it becomign natural-its accpetance in the family, its value at the table, etc. Not some shameful stupid christian lie-how debilitating. Take it all back, that’s what I say. I have no liberty until everybody else does. Because if you watch them steal rights from bob, they’ll be at your house next. and likewise for me if I stand idly by-or if any of us do when they damn the “gays”.

    It’s more like the breastfeeding issue-we shouldnt make that “weird”, or uncouth or whatever-all women issues are-so that’s an easy way to tell who’s on what side.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    I didnt say “on their own” you added that part, see painting it all asshole again. And again, disqualified until you can dialog like a person talking to another person, knowing they are both your student and teacher.

  • quietglow

    Women only have ownership of birth when they can determine whether or not they’ll be pregnant, and the whole process of doctors taking over childbirth happened during a very sexist time when women weren’t allowed to determine much of anything.

    Women in general are unlikely to promote misogyny more than men because it doesn’t benefit them. They may hold mildly misogynistic opinions, but they won’t usually believe them very strongly or be able to name a lot of exceptions.

    In general, those who perpetuate misogyny are the ones who benefit from it and don’t have to think about it. Sometimes that’s a few rare women able to hold power by being the exception. More often it’s men.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Bob, Bob, Bob, please play nice. No attacking other posters. Attack ideas not people.

    And that goes for everyone else here too…

  • Bob the Lunatic

    well there’s that double standard. My comment was polite, just minority. And it was I that was attacked-it’s quite obvious since it’s in print. But if yall like a rigged game, thats fine, I’ll respect it, and wont mention it again, just dont be too obvious-that one is a trashcan trying to fit through a daisy chain.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    well there’s that double standard. My comment was polite, just minority. And it was I that was attacked and since defended myself-it’s quite obvious since it’s in print. But if yall like a rigged game, thats fine, I’ll respect it, and wont ention it again, just dont be too obvious-that one is a trashcan trying to fit through a daisy chain. Wait,… is this a christian website cuz suddenly certain things might make sense if thats the case-like accusing the victim of the bullydom when shes foamingg at the face and has 2 towel boys….

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Excellent comment. now the only problem I take issuewith is that you say youre separate-you know, its THOSE GUYS…. as theyre easy to blame with the history of #1 bloodlust and all. So I assume your worldview isnt christian? Are you sure? isnt the core of their religion a salvation that alleviates one of all responsiblitliy for all wrong doings in their life. Isnt that what THEY do with their worldview?

    If you detest the worldview so-why are yout taking theirs immediately? I think I know why, do you?

    In realiity-it’s in your life too,take responsiblity meaning change it in your life…. or cross up cuz youre stil a christian.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Did you not see the part where I said for everyone else to play nice too? Currently we don’t have posted commentary guidelines but that is about to change. The site purpose is more about healing from spiritual abuse more than calling others names, even if there are a few nasty choice names I’d like to call some folks….coughcoughKevinSwansoncough…

  • Nea

    I had a great deal of trouble translating that comment into English. As far as I can tell the answers are:
    – No, I am not Christian and yes, I’m sure about that
    – I do, in fact, disdain the Christian worldview when it is used to deny rights to others and forced on others
    – I am politically active in dealing with this issue, at the state, federal, and personal levels.

  • $190147

    I think Bob the Lunatic’s PMS’ing.

  • Nightshade

    Got to agree with NeaDods on this one, that just doesn’t make any sense.

  • Lauren Borrero

    I think that’s pretty messed up too. Her period is her business not theirs. Like they forget women are people too.

  • Lauren Borrero

    Yeah Gothard doesn’t seem to have much dignity.

  • Catherine

    More to the point, he doesn’t allow women any.

  • aim2misbehave

    Agreed, but not just from fundie land! I’m asexual, so I’m 25 and never even kissed a guy, so I had problems with doctors assuming that I was just lying about not being sexually active. Fortunately, I finally stumbled on one who understands that.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Yes, it’s amazing how controversial the idea of women making their own decisions about their lives is.

  • Lauren Borrero

    It makes me wonder if Bill Gothard had a bad experience with girls and woman when he was a kid. I mean that’s the only reason why I think he would do this.

  • Lynn

    I once babysat for a family over a weekend, where a daughter started her first period while I was there. She was completely freaked out. I tried to explain to her that it just meant that she was growing up and her body was getting ready to be able to have babies when the time came. She had no idea you had to have sex to make a baby, and was terrified that getting her period meant that she would soon spontaneously become pregnant. It was really hard to reassure her without crossing the obvious boundaries her family set up. The best I could do was tell her that she wouldn’t get pregnant until she had a husband to be the daddy.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    But you didn’t address the disparity point, the main point. That in pointing the finger at them, you are like them both in fatalism and nonresponsibility.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    tis a good argument but it ignores the fact that rarely do any of us do what’s in our best interest. Further, hell becomes as natural as playing in a garden-people choose hell again and again all the time..

    But I am not victim blaming, rather it’s time men started standing up. Really it’s time people started standing up for OTHER people, like for gays, even if you’re not gay, or women, even if you think you benefit as a man.

    I would also argue that misogyny cannot exist without its symbiotic partner, misandry. And men too self hate-its usually the man that pushes for genital mutilation in their son, to look all handsome and mutilated like dad. Explain that?

    More often it’s men when it’s obvious. Why? because WE are obvious? Why? Oh, that’s our fault-we made women be quiet for so long, they are much better at reading people, including men than men can read a book… (Just a theory of mine).

    I’m not saying feminists are definitely the biggest or worst misogynists, but I am saying that arguments could be made to that effect. Further, there is no question that in any movement, there is fanaticism and it above all else is most destructive to the movement itself, not its goals.

    Now, being a fair man, allow me to make the argument to demonstrate: The most dangerous thing we can do for a minority discrimination, is to claim equality when it’s not true-to teach and indoctrinate “acceptable inequalities” that become part of the understanding of “equality” thus living a lie and believing the truth non-existent. Women do that more than men on the sexism problem. When women compromise on something important, worst of all – that perpetuates it to their offspring, that’s where all hope is lost-not when men do it, they as you said are only losing a special or unfair right. women when they do it here are losing the right to be equal. And the loudest voices are the ones listened to-those are the feminists in this case, therefore they could be argued as the biggest misogynists.

    Now, no anger please, I’m just posing a possible argument for the sake of dialog, no insults are intended and remember if you dont consider me, I’ll consider you as polite as men have been historically.

  • Nightshade

    Exactly. These people consider womankind a one-size-fits-all kind of creature, when there are so many different personalities, preferences, etc. Kind of runs parallel to my opinion on the ‘what DO women want?’ question. Never mind what women in general want, find out what the specific woman in question wants, and go from there.

  • Astrin Ymris

    What part of “Her body, her choice” don’t you understand?

    It’s a woman’s decision whether to publicize her period or not. Not her husband’s… HERS. Just like it’s her decision to breastfeed or not, and her decision whether she needs to cover up with a blanket or not. Or her decision whether to accept or reject a sexual overture. Or whether or not to use contraception, and if so, what kind.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    I don’t disagree with what he said, I simply disagree with fatalist worldviews-which include anytime one claims a problem is detached from themself…. despite it being a response to their influence in his life…..

    Wha doesn’t make any sense?

  • quietglow

    Men who want their sons to undergo a traditional surgery that they can’t remember hurting them could be participating in the sunk-cost fallacy, where they’ve already gone all in and might as well throw the rest of the cost after what they’ve spent already.

    Your theory that women can read men is sexist. Women aren’t psychic. You’re also making a lot of general statements I can’t really rebut because I don’t even know what cases you’re talking about.

    I’m listening to you, and I’m not angry. I just don’t think you’re right.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Hi quiet,

    How is my theory sexist? I don’t think it is, but there is no self improvement if I sit down-so I too am listening, either I’ll appreciate the point, retract and improve or youll hopefully understand what I meant better-either way it’s win win, but please explain how and why it is sexist what I said, and also if that means you disagree-women cannot read body language better than men.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    But I am disappointed you didnt comment on my main point as I’d be interested in your take on the posed argument.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    What are you, a virgin? If you’re going to defend a woman’s honor, I’d suggest a site loaded with feminists isn’t the right venue… or is it?

    Now quit talking in slogans like a chatty cathy doll, think, use your own words, then perhaps you’ll have something interesting, or at least non-cliche to say…

    Further you missed my point completely making yours a Don Quijote attack. Nobody mentioned forcing her or even having a vote on this or that. If you had any clue, you’d know a man wouldn’t need to be informed by her-nor need to inform her of his spreadsheet.

    Now run along and make sure everyone has a note for the bathroom.

  • quietglow

    “Women’s intuition” is a kind of backhanded thing. The message is that women are supposed to have this innate quality, because it attunes them to the realm of non-masculine things. Women are sensitive and intuitive, which means that they need to be protected by men and wouldn’t make good soldiers, lawyers, or police, to name a few professions.

    Women are socialized to be very sensitive to body language, and are given a lot of social responsibility to be supportive and understanding of those around them, but that doesn’t mean men couldn’t hone the same skills.

    Women may be more naturally aware of other’s feelings and body language, that’s up in the air. But it doesn’t mean that men can’t be, or that all women are.

  • quietglow

    I’m honestly not following the posed argument. You talk about “claiming equality when it’s not true” and then never explain what you mean by that.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    I agree with all you said-and I think you assumed the angle intended incorrectly. What I said was that I do believe women are “quieter” and more “indirect’ etc., that many of the stereotypes are true in many cases… HOWEVER that it was NOT INNATE, but rather forced upon them-only to become self or rather mate-fulfilling prophesy. I was suggesting that culture, that is male dominant culture forced it UPON women and after enough time-as we see today, it’s kind of bit us in the ass.

    Is it still sexist? And if so how, as I don’t want to be. For a while, I thought I had it covered-because since I converted to Buddhism over 20 years ago, by awakening, not choice….I have always believed all life is equal. I thought that’s all there was too it. Nope. It’s a constant struggle for all of us to overcome fallacies of culture. So I sincerely do wish to correct it if it’s here, and appreciate your help.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Okay, let’s take the family-where the root of it all is. Little girls and boys today are told they’re equal. But yet, nobody addresses obvious remaining inequalities in the family, next to nobody-thus by including these acceptable practices while calling it “equal” it creates “acceptable inequaliiteis” and a skewed vision of “equality”.

    Do you see?

  • Nea

    I have no idea what you are insinuating. If you state your case more clearly I will consider addressing it.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Actually, I was quite explicit. And if you addressed it, you wouldn’t be acting like a christian-which was the point, you are. To have no responsibility for the situation and claim to be separate from it is the heart of christian thinking, AND your post. You won’t address it, but the irony of it alone will tide us over.

  • quietglow

    Nobody can be perfect. We’re not going to get all families to agree it’s an important matter; we’re not going to get all the way to where we want the next generation to be. It doesn’t matter. We’re getting social change the same way we always have: convincing enough people to start ostracizing bigots.

    If women compromise, that’s not necessarily on women as a fault or betrayal, because women are taught to compromise, give in, eat last, give the food to other family members. It’s a mark that the status quo is still somewhat in place; it’s not a sign that that particular woman is misogynist or misandryst or whatever.

    Sexism is an ingrained culture that has already seen backlash after backlash (it’s not culturally polite for a woman to name herself a feminist, have you noticed?) and is still standing strong. It’s going to take more time and sweat and effort to tear it down.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Well, I’ll take pride in the fact that you had to be so dishonest about what i said to have a point. It’s all drivel and you are a prime example of how it is women that promote misogyny the most.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Oh and it’s not even THEIR business if they blindly do what others, like you, tell them to.

    And of course they are unnatural. Explain why women nest, and further, and more important-why it doesn’t matter, why we should ignore the nesting assuming it to be without value-as your claim requires. You say it’s all equal and just a choice. Well then prove it-show why this natural act all women do, called “nesting” has no value.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    Again dishonest. Actual translation; Women and men need to be fair to each other, to be fair to themselves. Both have special rights in places, rights that create inequality. Both need to put them down and walk away, keeping only equality based rights.

    Taking ideas like equality in oral sex or elsewhere and SPINNiNG them as selfish is beyond selfish as it’s self destructive more than anything. And it shows a view aimed at war, not equality.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    no you illiterate moron-it was that women shouldnt ask for things they dont want to give. That would make YOU the hostage holder in this situation.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    I partially agree. i agree with the “if they compromise, it’s not necessarily on them’. i agree, the thing in particular that relates to me is exactly one of those things-in reality a thing only a man could do (which makes sense in a good way when you realize we are talking about dismantling this patriarchal cultural delusion-and both have roles, men have been ignoring theirs. i’m not talking about other duties, like for example a man being able to cry or show other emotions beyond anger, etc…i’m talking about something in only the hands of a man-thus clearly a wrong he should initiate correcting-and i would argue in most cases only he could.

    men and women trap not only each other into questionable societal roles, but themselves. We all perpetuate sexism for example, anyone who doesn’t think so is part of the problem. otherwise, they’d know many things i know that require an ongoing and difficult process diligently changing them in your life-the only one you have control over. And especially for our daughters and our sons.

    there is nothing gained by a special right, nothing but limitation on the self. These things prove it in the symbiosis were all aware of. you cant take away X and have no other changes in the system, no, the system counteracts. if we take the eyes from women, they will hear better, and smell better-wait, scratch that, and they will have an improved sense of smell, touch, taste. Balance is always found, it seems to be the natural state.

    The limitations of feminism are real and upon us, it’s time for both men and women to move past any sense of ideology that separates. To me, this means-there is no such problem in my marriage for example, that is not mine. Blaming is cowardly, and arrogant. to pretend a comment exists in a timeless bubble is insane, yet we all do it-as though she saying A has nothing to do with him doing B, and B is not absolved, nor the catalyst that sprung it into action, nor the influence that unleashed that catalyst, and so on…. because infinity has no cause..

    That said, there is now, and now is a moment that we all share, and can take from or give to. But only in looking at the self can one expect to change another.

  • Bob the Lunatic

    by the way, well really this was the point i forgot to make on this-i didnt say anything about other people’s families. That’s the point-that thinking IS the real problem. And rather each has to say ‘my’ or ‘our’ and take ownership of the problems as they exist in each of our respective lives.

    the focus is on law-and that is improper. That is addressing signs of the problem, not the problem. And so we have more laws, but less thinking. And the attitude becomes “someone should do something’ or ‘those guys should just quit hatin’. When parents have the complete chance to leap culture ahead to a time where morality is understood not through fear, or self preservation, but through community and oneness with environment.

    If each does their part, the whole benefits exponentially. So it’s quite easy you see-all you have to do is look and see if you’re doing your part.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    Personal revenge on All Those Gurlz with a Righteous coat of paint?

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    Yeah, it cuts both ways. And both extremes end up as funhose-mirror reflections of each other, like that half-white and half-black alien in that Original Star Trek episode.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    PLUG IT UP!”

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    Only reason (other than OCD) I can see for marking the wife’s cycle on the calendar is if you’re doing some sort of Natural Family Planning where you have to keep track of the fertile/infertile periods for the purpose of getting pregnant or not getting pregnant. BUT THE DAUGHTER’S TOO?

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    How does this “It’s day 20, it’s time for me to go out of town.” translate into flowers and a fancy meal?

    If wife in question had severe PMS mood swings, I could see his point. Otherwise, WTF?

  • Nea

    I still have no idea why you think I need to have responsibility for or be a part of crimes committed by quiverfull adherents upon their unwilling children, especially daughters. That is what I accuse the QF of doing by beating their children and keeping the girls at home, uneducated. As I am not a member of the QF community, I am hardly responsible for or part of the commision of these actions.

    As a politically active person, I am part of what I consider to be the solution. Part of that solution is to talk about the issue so that others are aware of it, something you apparently consider “pointing fingers.”

  • Bob the Lunatic

    you miss the point again. the point is, its all connected, including to your life. And in your life there are things you can do, seemingly little but unfathomably big if you understand the potential outcome. Quit reinforcing in your life as that is what allows a culture that allows this.