{"id":1465,"date":"2010-08-27T08:29:12","date_gmt":"2010-08-27T14:29:12","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/community\/paganportal\/?p=1465"},"modified":"2010-08-27T08:29:12","modified_gmt":"2010-08-27T14:29:12","slug":"common-ground-not-found-at-nyc-islamic-center-site","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/pantheon\/2010\/08\/common-ground-not-found-at-nyc-islamic-center-site\/","title":{"rendered":"Common Ground not Found at NYC Islamic Center Site"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>In all of the back and forth within the Pagan community over if we  should or shouldn\u2019t support the proposed Islamic Center,\u00a0 one of the more  compelling things I\u2019ve read was a comment from NorseAlchemist on the  Wild Hunt, <em>\u201cI find myself in an unenviable position which seems I must  either stand for freedom of religion (a thing near and dear to my heart)  and permit a religion that would see my ways wiped from human existence  or stand for something that appears to be against freedom of religion  and prevent said ideology from gaining more power.\u201d <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em><\/em><\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_1468\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-1468\" style=\"width: 329px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><em><a rel=\"attachment wp-att-1468\" href=\"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/community\/paganportal\/2010\/08\/27\/common-ground-not-found-at-nyc-islamic-center-site\/sadd\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-1468\" src=\"https:\/\/wp.patheos.com\/community\/paganportal\/files\/2010\/08\/sadd.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"329\" height=\"249\"><\/a><\/em><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-1468\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sadd branch of family in US: my grangmother and her sisters<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m  going to leave aside the legal and constitutional red herrings that  have been thrown out there because this isn\u2019t, as of yet, a  constitutional or legal issue.  No governmental agency is blocking the center from being built.  Instead this is a public discussion of  preference.  Do you prefer the center to be built in that spot, somewhere  else, or should Islamic Centers not be built anywhere in the USA? The group  behind the center is free to follow or ignore these opinions on  preference.<\/p>\n<p>Within the Pagan community, this has been put  forward as an issue of showing solidarity with another minority religion.  That  we must stand with them, as we would expect them to stand with us.   Mostly I agree with this.  It makes sense to me and appeals to the  concepts of honor that are so much a part of Hellenismos.  But I can\u2019t  do it.  No, that\u2019s not true.  I choose not to do it.  I would lead the  charge to assist the Muslim community if the government were infringing  on their rights, but I will not assist them in getting the center built.<\/p>\n<p>The  main reason for this is exactly because I, too, have thought long and  hard about the very dilemma that NorseAlchemist outlines.  In a very  real and personal way.<\/p>\n<p>Coming out as a Pagan in the USA is not a  totally risk-free enterprise.  You could lose your job.  Your family  could cast you out.  People could vandalize your property or physically  harm you.  We fear these things primarily from the Christian majority.  I  have been lucky.  My Christian family did not cast me out.  I haven\u2019t  lost my job.  I have received some threats and other unpleasantness, but  overall things are fine.  If I came out to my extended family and lived  where they do, in the Middle East, I wouldn\u2019t have to worry about my  family casting me out.  I wouldn\u2019t worry about losing my job.  I  wouldn\u2019t even have to worry about being physically harmed.  I would have  none of these worries because I would most probably be dead. Likely by my own  family\u2019s hands.  They would not go to jail for killing me and their  spiritual leaders would not condemn them.<\/p>\n<p>The rule of law and  religion, called Sharia, are one in the same in much of the Middle  East.  People can talk about radicalism or fundamentalism, but killing a  Pagan family member \u2013 especially a female one \u2013 is not a radical or  fundamentalist act in most Muslim controlled countries.  Nor is killing  an adulteress.  Or any female who gets out of line.  Justice seems to  fall heavier on the women under Islamic law.  It is an act acceptable to  the mainstream of the religion and is promoted and protected by custom,  by sacred writings, and by law.<\/p>\n<p>This isn\u2019t just in  Islamic-controlled theocracies.  The religion and ethics of Islam that  offer the choice of compliance with their theological laws or death or  other harsh punishments are practiced in Europe, North America, and  other regions of the world.  I absolutely agree that many Muslims move  to the USA (and elsewhere) to escape the draconian religious laws of the  Middle East, Africa, and Asia.  They are not looking to convert by  force and are content with the rest of us living our lives how we see  fit. Yet many also still enforce those same draconian laws within their  family.  Wives cannot refuse their husband\u2019s sexual advances.   Religious seeking, outside Islam, is severely punished.  Forms of dress  are to be observed or, again, the punishment can be severe.  Enough of  that.  Suffice it to say I believe  every person is free to voluntarily comply with religious tenants that  apply only to themselves, but I oppose those who would force compliance  on others.<\/p>\n<p>Does this happen in other religions?  Yes.  And we  rightfully criticize them.  Especially in our community, you can\u2019t  hardly mention Christianity without a litany of negative comments, most  involving words like homophobic and misogyny, being recited.  Pagans  navel gaze and we aren\u2019t shy about voicing concerns and criticisms of  our own, each others\u2019, traditions.<\/p>\n<p>Yet we, and much of the USA,  are so careful to not criticize Islam.  As if, by being extra  sensitive, we can make up for those who would like to harm Muslims.  We  excuse the Muslim religion for things that we would not excuse in any other  religion.  To state concerns over the possible spread of sharia law in  the USA, which has crept into Canada and the UK, is to be labeled a  bigot and an Islamaphobe.  To blast Christians who want Judeo-Christian  ethics to influence our laws, is to be lauded as intelligent and  progressive.  The Christianization of our laws is openly discussed as a  valid threat.  Understandable since they are in the majority.  You are  ridiculed as a tinfoil hat wearer for thinking Islamic law could gain  ground in our institutions here.  They have no power, such concerns are  silly.<\/p>\n<p>In  some Minneapolis public schools, there are rooms set aside so that  Muslim students can go and pray during school-time.  We have a public  school that the ACLU contents is actually a religious Muslim school.  If  you are carrying alcohol or want to go to a bar, Muslim taxi drivers  are allowed to refuse you service.\u00a0 Muslim women are allowed to veil when posing for a photo ID.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t put the blame,  for lack of a better word, on Muslims for this.  They can only ask  for these allowances and what\u2019s the harm in asking?  No, it\u2019s a strange  brand of hypocrisy, a type of squeamishness that those who label  themselves \u201ctolerant\u201d in the USA seem to have regarding Islam that they  do not have towards any other religious group.  They are the ones who  support using taxpayer money to create prayer rooms, footbaths, and  halal lunches for Muslim students in public schools while  refusing even a hint of accommodation to other religions.  It also  drives lifelong committed feminists to defend or ignore many of Islam\u2019s  human rights violations against women.  Our citizenry also doesn\u2019t have much of a  problem with taxpayer funds paying for the Islamic Center\u2019s Imam to tour the  Mid-East on a bridge building tour which he is also using  to raise funds and gain publicity for building the center.  I don\u2019t ask  for people to castigate the Islamic faith, but is it asking too much for  people to treat it with the same critical or neutral eye they cast on  other religions?\u00a0 Our government and our citizens show themselves unwilling to place the same restraints on Islam as they place on every other religion in our country when it looks to cross the line.\u00a0 That is what raises my level of concern.\u00a0 Not some pathological fear of Islam or ingrained bigotry, but I\u2019m losing my trust in all of you to not allow sharia to gain ground because of some misguided attempt to show how tolerant you are.\u00a0 Where sharia gains, Pagans lose.<\/p>\n<p>This isn\u2019t to say Islam and those who practice  it are evil.  Far from it.  Or that Islam isn\u2019t a spiritually  fulfilling religious path for those who are devoted to it.  I haven\u2019t  found a religion yet that doesn\u2019t have much to recommend it and Islam is  no different in that regard.  I will not stand quietly while any  religion in the USA is discriminated against by our government.  I will  not condone violence against any religion.  But I\u2019m not rooting for  Islam to spread throughout the USA as I, like NorseAlchemist feel that  <em>\u201cChristians, while unhappy with our existance, at least is not that big a  threat.\u00a0 Islam certainly is, from my studies.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n<p>Right now, Islam, as a religion, is in an internal struggling with  issues of violence, oppression and human rights violations, and  imperialism.  I\u2019m hopeful that American\u00a0 moderate Muslims (whom I know to be decent, wonderful people) win this struggle against sharia.\u00a0 They are the ones most concerned by how Western nations seem unwilling to push back against sharia and are the ones targeted for violence by their coreligionists for their non-compliance.<\/p>\n<p>So while I  support and will defend anyone\u2019s right to use private funds to build on  private property, I will not add my voice to the chorus urging the Islamic Center near Ground Zero be built.  Nor will I  add my voice to those opposed to it.<\/p>\n<p><a id=\"link_5\" href=\"http:\/\/wildhunt.org\/blog\/2010\/08\/pagans-and-park51.html#idc-cover\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><br>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In all of the back and forth within the Pagan community over if we should or shouldn\u2019t support the proposed Islamic Center,\u00a0 one of the more compelling things I\u2019ve read was a comment from NorseAlchemist on the Wild Hunt, \u201cI find myself in an unenviable position which seems I must either stand for freedom of [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":35,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[30,45],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1465","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-hellenismos","category-paganism"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Common Ground not Found at NYC Islamic Center Site<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"In all of the back and forth within the Pagan community over if we should or shouldn&#039;t support the proposed Islamic Center,\u00a0 one of the more compelling\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" 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