{"id":694,"date":"2011-03-04T12:53:00","date_gmt":"2011-03-04T12:53:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/rebeccafrech\/2011\/03\/answering-laurie-defending-prayers-to-saints.html"},"modified":"2014-08-22T15:50:12","modified_gmt":"2014-08-22T20:50:12","slug":"answering-laurie-defending-prayers-to-saints","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/rebeccafrech\/2011\/03\/answering-laurie-defending-prayers-to-saints.html","title":{"rendered":"Answering Laurie — Defending Prayers to Saints"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

In my recent post on burying St Joseph statues to speed up a real estate sale, I received a response from a former-Catholic that I think merits its own space for an answer.\u00a0 The original comment is in black and my responses are in red.\u00a0 It\u2019s long.\u00a0 I apologize for that, but some things are worth the space and time.<\/p>\n

God declares in 1 Timothy 2:5 \u201cFor there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.\u201d <\/p>\n

Proverbs<\/span> 3:5-6 says to \u201cTrust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.\u201d<\/p>\n

Therefore, if we truly trust God and He tells us that Jesus is the ONE mediator between Himself and us, then why, why, why do we think prayer to a saint is a better option? We don\u2019t think this.<\/span> The Catholic Church does not teach this.\u00a0 We believe that the Primary Mediator between God and Man is Jesus Christ. The rest of us, including the saints, are subordinate to Him. That is..we are not God but we are still to pray for each other. This is why in 1Tim 2:1-2 Paul directs us to offer \u201cpetitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving \u2026. for everyone.\u201d If the only one who could offer prayers on our behalf to God was Jesus Christ, then why would Paul instruct us to pray for each other?\u00a0 Do you believe that asking another person to pray for you is idolatrous? Is it somehow disrespectful of the primary place of Christ?\u00a0 For example, would it be wrong for me to ask you to pray for me?\u00a0 If not, why not? <\/span>Do we think God will listen more closely to a saint than He would His own Son? No.\u00a0<\/span> The bible says \u201cAll Scripture<\/span> is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16) Do we think some scripture is simply not applicable to ourselves? No.\u00a0 Please tell me where I or the Catholic Church have ever stated that Scripture does not apply to us?\u00a0 Please cite specific examples.<\/span><\/p>\n

Are there any instances of believers praying to saints in Heaven anywhere in the bible? God COMMANDS \u201cYou must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods\u201d (Exodus<\/span> 20:4-5).\u00a0 In Jeremiah 15:1<\/a> and again in Luke 16:27-28<\/a>, God acknowledges that the dead plead before Him on behalf of the living, and in Zechariah 1:12<\/a> that the angels do.<\/span> So we do know that saints and angels both praying for us.\u00a0 As for the living talking to the dead? Jesus spoke with Elijah and Moses in Matt 17:3, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38. So if we can speak and the saints will hear us, and the Bible says they pray for us\u2026why wouldn\u2019t we ask them to pray for us? You seem to believe that the dead are gone and buried, but they are not.\u00a0 Their souls are alive in Christ and live in Heaven.<\/span><\/p>\n

A believer who prays to a saint INSTEAD of God THROUGH the ONE mediator (JESUS) is like a child going through a dear family friend to get the attention of his mother\u2019s heart. You are correct.\u00a0 Nobody should pray to a saint INSTEAD of praying to God. <\/span>If that were your child, how would that make you feel? My feelings about my children are irrelevant to this discussion.\u00a0 This is an emotional appeal fallacy<\/a>. It is an appeal to emotion rather than logic. Since feelings can be neither right nor wrong, my feelings do not matter in this debate.\u00a0<\/span> Imagine then, how God must feel when we break His Command and trust not in Him with our whole heart? It is impossible for me, a mere human being, to understand the workings of the mind or heart of the Almighty.\u00a0 It would be wrong of me to project my human frailty upon Him.\u00a0 Do you not agree?<\/span><\/p>\n

I mean not to offend, but there is only one Truth. Jesus says, \u201cI am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) Why would Jesus say that if it weren\u2019t so? Agreed.\u00a0 I have no debate with that, neither does the Catholic Church.<\/span><\/p>\n

I mean not to offend. I am never offended by honest questions.\u00a0 I welcome them<\/span> I\u2019m spent nearly 40 years of my life as a Catholic who knew \u201cabout\u201d Jesus. I just didn\u2019t KNOW Him. This is a pity and a shame.\u00a0 Was this the failing of the Church or of your own understanding of its teachings?\u00a0 You seem to be misinformed about what the Church truly teaches.\u00a0 This is one of the sad outcomes of the poor catechesis of the Post-Vatican II era.\u00a0 I am truly sorry.\u00a0<\/span> And now that I\u2019ve been given New Life in Christ<\/span>, You were granted a New Life in Christ at Baptism, i.e. Born Again.\u00a0 It is just lately that you have begun to accept and embrace the life which you were given.<\/span> I have never been so free or so sure of my salvation since the moment I stopped listening to man and started trusting in the Lord, my God and Savior, Jesus Christ. We are not to be \u201csure of our salvation\u201d, but to \u201cwork out your salvation in fear and trembling\u201d (Philippians 2:12) not with a false assurance but in humility and \u201chopeful confidence\u201d (Rom 5:2).<\/span> My heart breaks for those who don\u2019t understand the Truth about who Jesus is, and clearly, praying to saints above Him is not understanding who He is or what He did for us on that cross.\u00a0 As I have already said, we are in complete agreement.\u00a0 Anyone who prays to the saints ABOVE Christ is in error.<\/span><\/p>\n

Feel free to respond, but please don\u2019t be angry with my message. It is not my own. It is God\u2019s. Why would I be angered by anyone who reaches out to me as a Sister in Christ? I believe that you are sadly misguided, but your intentions were pure and loving.\u00a0 I thank you for what you are intending to do.<\/span><\/p>\n

In Christ, with Love, Laurie<\/p>\n

Laurie, I think the problem here is you understanding of the verb \u201cto pray.\u201d \u00a0 You are using the definition<\/a> \u201cto<\/span> offer<\/span> devout<\/span> petition,<\/span> praise,<\/span> thanks,<\/span> etc.,<\/span> to<\/span> (God<\/span> or<\/span> an<\/span> object<\/span> of<\/span> worship)\u201d\u00a0\u00a0 Which is the form of the verb that Catholics also use when we talk about praying to God.<\/span><\/span>\u00a0 You, and everyone else who asks about this topic, seem to forget that there is another definition which is \u201c<\/span><\/span>to<\/span> make<\/span> petition<\/span> or<\/span> entreaty<\/span> for;<\/span> crave\u201d\u00a0 as in<\/span> \u201c<\/span>She<\/span> prayed<\/span> his<\/span> forgiveness.\u201d\u00a0 Which basically means \u201cto ask\u201d.\u00a0\u00a0<\/span>

<\/span>
Catholicism is an ancient religion.\u00a0 (It goes all the way back to 32 A.D.)\u00a0 Because we are blessed with a long and rich tradition that our modern American Evangelical Protestant brethren are lacking, they often forget that every word we use has been translated into modern vernacular.\u00a0 Therefore, we use an older meaning of the word \u201cpray\u201d than is commonly used.\u00a0 It is still a valid use and definition, but is not the regular usage, and therein lies your confusion.\u00a0\u00a0<\/span>

<\/span>
We do not pray to the saints as we do to God.\u00a0 One is divine, the others are not.\u00a0 They are however above us as they are already in the presence of God Almighty and purified of sin.\u00a0 (What sin could survive in Heaven?)\u00a0 If, as the Bible states, \u201cThe prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.\u201d James 5:16, then who, other than God himself, is more righteous than they?\u00a0 If I am going to ask my fellow Christians to pray for me, why would I neglect the most righteous people I could ask\u2026.people the Bible says are already praying on our behalf?<\/span>

<\/span>
You seem to believe that the Catholic Church is not a Bible-believing church.\u00a0 We are\u2026.not only that, but we are the one and only Bible-writing<\/i> church.\u00a0 If we wrote it, don\u2019t you think it\u2019s reasonable to assume that we agree with what\u2019s in there?<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span><\/span><\/div>\n
<\/span><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In my recent post on burying St Joseph statues to speed up a real estate sale, I received a response from a former-Catholic that I think merits its own space for an answer.\u00a0 The original comment is in black and my responses are in red.\u00a0 It\u2019s long.\u00a0 I apologize for that, but some things are […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1979,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-694","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"\nAnswering Laurie -- Defending Prayers to Saints<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"In my recent post on burying St Joseph statues to speed up a real estate sale, I received a response from a former-Catholic that I think merits its own\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, 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