{"id":1631,"date":"2010-02-16T12:13:00","date_gmt":"2010-02-16T12:13:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2010\/02\/more-mythicist-creationist-parallels-messiahs-wisdom-and-jesus\/"},"modified":"2010-02-16T12:13:00","modified_gmt":"2010-02-16T12:13:00","slug":"more-mythicist-creationist-parallels-messiahs-wisdom-and-jesus","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2010\/02\/more-mythicist-creationist-parallels-messiahs-wisdom-and-jesus.html","title":{"rendered":"More Mythicist-Creationist Parallels: Messiahs, Wisdom and Jesus"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>I am grateful that <a href=\"http:\/\/vridar.wordpress.com\/2010\/02\/16\/did-jesus-exist-on-youtube-dismantling-the-evidence-presented-by-james-mcgrath\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Neil Godfrey reminded me in a recent post<\/a> of yet\u00a0more parallels between mythicism and creationism. First, it seems that one can never successfully keep one\u2019s denial of mainstream scholarship limited to one specific, narrow field. Knowledge is so intertwined that one cannot deny biological evolution without challenging our conclusions about geology, for example. And one cannot deny the existence of Jesus without also challenging (among other things)\u00a0what we know about ancient Judaism and the variety of \u201cmessianic\u201d beliefs and ideas found in ancient Jewish literature.<\/p>\n<p>Neil quotes several scholars whose conclusions reflect our mainstream understanding: there wasn\u2019t one single concept of \u201c<em>the<\/em> messiah\u201d in the Judaism of this period, not every Jewish author or movement shows evidence of being interested in such a figure, and even those who did use the term did so in different ways. This is\u00a0common knowledge\u00a0to anyone familiar with the current state of our knowledge about ancient Judaism \u2013\u00a0 and very much beside the point as far as my argument about the unlikelihood that any ancient Jews would invent a crucified Messiah. <\/p>\n<p>In connection with my argument about the historical Jesus and the crucifixion (to which Neil was responding) what matters is that we do know a great deal about a range of mediator figures and human deliverers that a wide range of Jews were expecting. And those who were expecting God to restore an anointed one descended from David were expecting the restoration of the role denoted by that anointing (from which the terms \u201cmessiah\u201d and \u201cchrist\u201d derive), namely the institution of Jewish kingship. We have evidence for such \u201cmessianic\u201d beliefs in the Judaism of this period, and conversely, we have <em>no<\/em> evidence whatsoever\u00a0from <em>pre-Christian<\/em> Judaism for the view that the restored Davidic king would die at the hands of his enemies. <\/p>\n<p>The closest one can find is perhaps the reference in Daniel\u2019s pseudo-prophecy to the anointed high priest Onias being killed (<a href=\"http:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Daniel+9%3A26&amp;version=NIV\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Daniel 9:26<\/a>). And it should be noted that there we are dealing with a brute historical fact that the author had to find a way of making sense of, not a mythical invention of an executed messiah.<\/p>\n<p>Another\u00a0major category of resemblance between mythicism and creationism is the failure to realize that what they accuse their opponents of doing, they are doing themselves. Neil\u00a0claims that Jesus was a \u201cGod\u201d for Paul. New Testament scholars are aware that there are no unambiguous or undisputed references to Jesus in this way in Paul\u2019s letters. Mythicists are reading later Christian theology into Paul\u2019s letters \u2013 the very thing they accuse \u201chistoricists\u201d of doing. To the extent that they are willing to adopt\u00a0what is (at best) a\u00a0minority position on the existence of Jesus, because they think the majority is misled by Christian assumptions, why would they not adopt the minority view that questions traditional interpretations of Paul in the same sort of way? Paul certainly shows evidence of exalting Jesus to a heavenly status, and perhaps (depending on the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.oldchristianwritings.com\/writings\/colossians.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">authenticity<\/a> of <a href=\"http:\/\/bible.cc\/colossians\/2-9.htm\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Colossians<\/a>) also depicts him not only as Wisdom but as one \u201cin whom the fullness of the godhead <em>bodily<\/em> dwells.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Finally, when we look at the aforementioned mythological Wisdom language\u00a0Paul (or someone writing in Paul\u2019s name) applies to Jesus, two major questions arise. First, what is the point of identifying a well-established mythological figure with a newly-invented one? Why did Paul not just talk and write about Wisdom, as other Jews were doing? The flexibility of the figure of Wisdom can be seen by comparing the identification of Wisdom with Torah (see below), the universalization of Wisdom (as in Wisdom of Solomon), the esoteric approach (as in 1 Enoch), and even Wisdom as fallen mother of the demiurge in Gnosticism. Given this adaptability, the question arises why early Christians, if mythicism is true, would have created a new mythical figure and then identified that figure with Wisdom, rather than simply talk about Wisdom. This too is something mythicism needs to explain in order to seem plausible. Once again, the closest parallel from Judaism is perhaps the identification of the Messianic Son of Man as \u201cfull of wisdom\u201d in the Similitudes of Enoch. But there too we are dealing with a figure that the author expected to appear in history in the future.<\/p>\n<p>Second, in Jewish literature we find such Wisdom language applied to Torah (<a href=\"http:\/\/bible.oremus.org\/?ql=25943315\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Ben Sira 24:1-23<\/a>). Following the \u201clogic\u201d that at least some mythicists seem to use, this would seem to\u00a0allow one to draw\u00a0the conclusion that the Torah did not exist, since it is spoken of using mythological terms and identified with a pre-existent heavenly figure. If that conclusion seems too bizarre to contemplate, then perhaps it is time to double check the methods that seem capable of leading to such strange conclusions. For it isn\u2019t clear why the penchant in ancient Judaism to identify or connect tangible things and people with things intangible and mythical should have any bearing on whether or not the existence of a person or thing is probable.<\/p>\n<div class=\"blogger-post-footer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\" src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/tracker\/7622297540113836091-1453380958694049567?l=exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com\" alt=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I am grateful that Neil Godfrey reminded me in a recent post of yet\u00a0more parallels between mythicism and creationism. First, it seems that one can never successfully keep one\u2019s denial of mainstream scholarship limited to one specific, narrow field. Knowledge is so intertwined that one cannot deny biological evolution without challenging our conclusions about geology, [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":136,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1631","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>More Mythicist-Creationist Parallels: Messiahs, Wisdom and Jesus<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I am grateful that Neil Godfrey reminded me in a recent post of yet&nbsp;more parallels between mythicism and creationism. First, it seems that one can\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2010\/02\/more-mythicist-creationist-parallels-messiahs-wisdom-and-jesus.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"More Mythicist-Creationist Parallels: Messiahs, Wisdom and Jesus\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"I am grateful that Neil Godfrey reminded me in a recent post of yet&nbsp;more parallels between mythicism and creationism. First, it seems that one can\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2010\/02\/more-mythicist-creationist-parallels-messiahs-wisdom-and-jesus.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. 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