{"id":1667,"date":"2010-02-05T21:26:00","date_gmt":"2010-02-05T21:26:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2010\/02\/is-john-3-meant-to-be-a-historically-plausible-narrative\/"},"modified":"2010-02-05T21:26:00","modified_gmt":"2010-02-05T21:26:00","slug":"is-john-3-meant-to-be-a-historically-plausible-narrative","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2010\/02\/is-john-3-meant-to-be-a-historically-plausible-narrative.html","title":{"rendered":"Is John 3 Meant To Be A Historically Plausible Narrative?"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.gardenofpraise.com\/images\/jesu21b.jpg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" border=\"0\" height=\"200\" src=\"https:\/\/www.gardenofpraise.com\/images\/jesu21b.jpg\" width=\"176\"><\/a>Should we think that the author of the Gospel of John intended, in the narrative about Jesus\u2019 conversation with Nicodemus, to tell a story which could be treated as an actual story about Jesus during the period of his public ministry? If so, it will shape the way we read it in interesting and unusual ways \u2013 as I explored with my Gospel of John class the last time it met.<\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\"><\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\">The first half\u00a0of the chapter is\u00a0usually treated as reflecting the standpoint of the author and\u00a0a conversation between his Christian community and the Jewish synagogue of which they had once been a part. And this may, in the end, be the best way of dealing with certain elements of it.<\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\"><\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\">But if we entertain for a moment the possibility that the Gospel\u2019s author sought to\u00a0offer not necessarily a true, factual, or historical account, but one that could be <em>plausibly<\/em> treated as an actual story about Jesus in his own time, then certain elements must be understood in some very interesting ways.<\/div>\n<p><\/p>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\">The \u201cwe\u201d (contrasted with \u201cyou\u201d in the plural) is one of the features that leads to the usual interpretation with the focus on the level of the author\u2019s time and his community. But on the level of the story, Jesus has not clearly broken away from the movement of John the Baptist yet, and the Baptist\u2019s public activity was still ongoing. In the perception of community leaders like Nicodemus, Jesus and John could have been thought of as part of a single movement or phenomenon, namely that of the\u00a0baptizers. <\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\"><\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\">In this context, Jesus\u2019 language of being born of water and spirit could much more plausibly be viewed as referring to baptism in water as a means to spiritual experience \u2013 something that is elsewhere depicted as part of Jesus\u2019 own experience of baptism. <\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.hollywoodjesus.com\/movie\/gospel_of_john\/24.jpeg\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" border=\"0\" height=\"200\" src=\"https:\/\/www.hollywoodjesus.com\/movie\/gospel_of_john\/24.jpeg\" width=\"178\"><\/a><\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\">Such spiritual experiences may well have included the idea of the descent of the\/a heavenly spirit, and\/or the ascent of the baptized. Jesus is depicted\u00a0as claiming that he himself now speaks as one who has been taken over (in whole or in part) by a heavenly figure that descended upon him \u2013 the \u201cSon of Man.\u201d <\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\"><\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\">Jesus is not only depicted as claiming that he had a unique experience of being taken over by a heavenly figure who descended,\u00a0but also\u00a0as a result being himself allowed to ascend to heaven in a unique way, and having already done so as of the time of his conversation with Nicodemus. (Cp. Paul\u2019s claim to have had a similar sort of experience \u2013 ascent was a major component of Jewish and Christian mysticism in the ancient world).\u00a0The \u201cwe\u201d of which he is a part shares a knowledge of heavenly things, and so some sort of initiation into knowledge of heavenly things was presumably the experience of others who underwent baptism as well.<\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\"><\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\">After considering this way of reading the story, some may find themselves all the more eager to treat the story as a retrojection of dialogue between later Jews and Christians onto the lips of Jesus and Nicodemus. But certainly it is at least appropriate to consider other ways the story might have been understood, since the \u201ctwo levels\u201d of the Johannine narrative are\u00a0not always so blatantly anachronistic (although John 9, with its depiction of leaders ready to expel from the synagogue any who confess Jesus as Messiah, clearly is similarly anachronistic).<\/div>\n<div style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none\"><\/div>\n<p>What do others think? Is it better to\u00a0treat John 3 as a dialogue between the Johannine community and the\u00a0synagogue, or as a purportedly genuine\u00a0conversation between a Jewish leader and a\u00a0baptizing mystic who would soon emerge from under the shadow of his mentor John and become a focal point of his own movement?\u00a0Again, this is not to deny that the author of this Gospel presents everything in his own unique style, language, and viewpoint. The question is not about whether the story <em>is historical<\/em> but whether it is one that is <em>supposed to seem plausible<\/em> set in the time of Jesus\u2019 public activity, or one that can only be understood if one reads it expecting Jesus to be the voice of later Christians.<\/p>\n<div class=\"blogger-post-footer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\" src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/tracker\/7622297540113836091-8243628997829736572?l=exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com\" alt=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Should we think that the author of the Gospel of John intended, in the narrative about Jesus\u2019 conversation with Nicodemus, to tell a story which could be treated as an actual story about Jesus during the period of his public ministry? If so, it will shape the way we read it in interesting and unusual [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":136,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1667","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Is John 3 Meant To Be A Historically Plausible Narrative?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Should we think that the author of the Gospel of John intended, in the narrative about Jesus&#039; conversation with Nicodemus, to tell a story which could be\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2010\/02\/is-john-3-meant-to-be-a-historically-plausible-narrative.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Is John 3 Meant To Be A Historically Plausible Narrative?\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Should we think that the author of the Gospel of John intended, in the narrative about Jesus&#039; conversation with Nicodemus, to tell a story which could be\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2010\/02\/is-john-3-meant-to-be-a-historically-plausible-narrative.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. 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