{"id":24448,"date":"2014-06-11T19:04:58","date_gmt":"2014-06-11T23:04:58","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?p=24448"},"modified":"2014-06-11T19:04:58","modified_gmt":"2014-06-11T23:04:58","slug":"richard-carrier-inspiring-doubt","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2014\/06\/richard-carrier-inspiring-doubt.html","title":{"rendered":"Liveblogging Richard Carrier Inspiring Doubt"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

<\/iframe>\n<\/p>The video above should let you watch <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2014\/06\/consensus-radio.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">the Richard Carrier interview<\/a> as it is happening now.<\/p>\nI\u2019m liveblogging it. Carrier is now talking about people sowing doubt about biology, for instance. But that is precisely an example of people manufacturing controversy about a consensus. He says that consensus has value. So he is trying, it sounds to me, to have his cake and eat it too. When can you trust consensus and when can you not?<\/p>\nThe host borrows from\u00a0Massimo Pigliucci, making the point that a layperson is in no position to challenge a consensus.<\/p>\nCarrier responds by claiming that laypeople need to be able to ensure that scholars are doing what they claim to. He mentioned fraud in academic journals \u2013 but I would say that only other experts can detect and deal with this, not laypeople.<\/p>\nCarrier claims that any layperson can see that the methods used in the study of the historical Jesus are flawed! He compares historical study to alchemy and astrology!<\/p>\nThe example of antivaxxers claiming that doctors are biased in favor of vaccines is mentioned.<\/p>\nCarrier says that laypeople can figure out which authorities are lying often and which hardly ever.<\/p>\nCarrier claims that experts discussing a matter of Greek grammar should be able to demonstrate their points by reference to English!<\/p>\nBrahe mentions the issue of a \u201cclash of experts,\u201d and Harry Collins\u2019 book <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0745682049\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0745682049&linkCode=as2&tag=jamefmcgrshom-20\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Are We All Scientific Experts Now<\/a><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" style=\"border: none !important;margin: 0px !important\" src=\"https:\/\/ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com\/e\/ir?t=jamefmcgrshom-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0745682049\" alt=\"\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\" border=\"0\"><\/em>. He also mentions <a href=\"http:\/\/www.motherjones.com\/environment\/2014\/05\/harry-collins-inquiring-minds-science-studies-saves-scientific-expertise\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Chris Mooney\u2019s review of the book<\/a>. All of this points to the need to rely on the community of experts to assess whether any one expert\u2019s argument is valid.<\/p>\nCarrier says it is easy for a laypeople to tell that one side is misrepresenting things, for instance in the debates on climate science. That is itself dubious, and ignores the fact that even would-be skeptics get duped by things. Carrier says that things get more difficult when one moves outside the sciences, and that in history, laypeople can tell when a minority view is stating the facts and the consensus is wrong.<\/p>\nCarrier rightly challenges the claim that we have as much or as good evidence for Jesus as for Alexander the Great. But he claimed that a credentialed professional historian of Jesus said that, and doesn\u2019t specify whom, although he hints that it was Dale Allison. I wonder who, if anyone, actually said this, but certainly if it turns out to be not a mainstream historian but a conservative Christian voice, then that doesn\u2019t look good for one\u2019s impression of Carrier. I checked Google Books and found Josh McDowell, not scholars.<\/p>\nBrahe raises the right questions, and points out that Carrier himself has said that he can\u2019t help cranks. But if cranks aren\u2019t persuadable, then how can he assess whether he is a crank?!<\/p>\nHe also backtracks inasmuch as he points out that most laypeople have not learned logic and so cannot assess what experts say.<\/p>\nBrahe points out that, if someone starts using Google to fact-check things, they will end up relying on the consensus, on other experts!<\/p>\nHe also points out that, given the division of labor among experts, even experts don\u2019t have the confidence on their own abilities that Carrier says laypeople should have.<\/p>\nAs a result, I\u2019m not persuaded by Carrier\u2019s viewpoint. What do you think?<\/p>\nBrahe mentioned me, and Carrier responded by saying that I am a good example of bias, that I have a \u201cChristian agenda,\u201d and that I\u2019ve made multiple false statements. \ud83d\ude42 By all means, fact check what I\u2019ve said, and what Carrier has \u2013 if there is something that Carrier and I would, I hope, agree on, it is that you should not just trust one scholar\u2019s claims. Indeed, Carrier says as much in the interview. I can think of instances where, in informal blog interactions, I have made errors. I hope that Carrier is not pretending never to have done that. Indeed, in this interview he says that even reliable historians get things wrong occasionally, and so occasional errors cannot be the basis for deciding who is trustworthy. But that would seem to be all the more reason to look to the consensus.<\/p>\nThe key issue is said to come down to how you decide whom to trust. If someone makes false claims often, then you should stop trusting them. But mythicists have been shown to be at best inaccurate time and time again. So even Carrier\u2019s statements about how to vet authorities would eliminate at least most mythicists. Please, go take a close look at what they say, and apply to them the critical thinking and methods of logic that Carrier says are appropriate.<\/p>\nCarrier agrees in the end with Brahe\u2019s concern about the possible way that one could take his argument to support conspiracy thinking. Laypeople who have not trained themselves cannot evaluate a scholarly consensus.<\/p>\nThe quote that Brahe offers from Carrier\u2019s book remains a good one. As <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/08\/review-of-richard-c-carrier-proving-history.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">I quoted from his book when I reviewed it<\/a>,\u00a0\u201can effective consensus of qualified experts constitutes meeting an initial burden of evidence\u201d because \u201cit is far more unlikely that an incorrect argument would persuade a hundred experts than that it would persuade only one; and it\u2019s far more unlikely that it would persuade any expert than that it would persuade even a hundred amateurs\u201d (<a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1616145595\/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=jamefmcgrshom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1616145595\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Proving History<\/em><\/a>, p.29).<\/p>\nBrahe also points out that there is a disproportionate representation of\u00a0crazy<\/em> among mythicists, which seems to be a powerful argument against mythicism, if Carrier\u2019s arguments in this interview are right. Carrier mentions <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/05\/beginning-blogging-earl-dohertys-book-jesus-neither-god-nor-man.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Earl Doherty<\/a> as having come up with a good theory and having argued it really well! Oh my goodness! <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/tag\/earl-doherty\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Doherty\u2019s<\/a> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/05\/chapter-4-of-earl-dohertys-jesus-neither-god-nor-man.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">book<\/a> is <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/02\/review-of-earl-doherty%E2%80%99s-jesus-neither-god-nor-man-chapter-10-part-two.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">so full<\/a> of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/08\/review-of-earl-doherty%E2%80%99s-jesus-neither-god-nor-man-chapter-10-part-one.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">inaccuracies<\/a> that, if Carrier thinks it is something insightful, that calls into question his own critical thinking abilities and knowledge of the relevant historical texts and data.<\/p>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0745682049\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0745682049&linkCode=as2&tag=jamefmcgrshom-20\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/ws-na.amazon-adsystem.com\/widgets\/q?_encoding=UTF8&ASIN=0745682049&Format=_SL250_&ID=AsinImage&MarketPlace=US&ServiceVersion=20070822&WS=1&tag=jamefmcgrshom-20\" alt=\"\" border=\"0\"><\/a><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" style=\"border: none !important;margin: 0px !important\" src=\"https:\/\/ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com\/e\/ir?t=jamefmcgrshom-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0745682049\" alt=\"\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\" border=\"0\"><\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"The video above should let you watch the Richard Carrier interview as it is happening now. I\u2019m liveblogging it. Carrier is now talking about people sowing doubt about biology, for instance. But that is precisely an example of people manufacturing controversy about a consensus. He says that consensus has value. So he is trying, it […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":136,"featured_media":22389,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[64],"tags":[4206,4652,4656,7853,10359],"class_list":["post-24448","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mythicism","tag-greg-breahe","tag-historical-jesus","tag-historicity","tag-mythicism","tag-richard-carrier"],"yoast_head":"\n<title>Liveblogging Richard Carrier Inspiring Doubt<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"The video above should let you watch the Richard Carrier interview as it is happening now. I'm liveblogging it. 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