{"id":471,"date":"2011-01-05T00:39:00","date_gmt":"2011-01-05T00:39:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus\/"},"modified":"2011-01-05T00:39:00","modified_gmt":"2011-01-05T00:39:00","slug":"richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html","title":{"rendered":"Richard Carrier on Bayes&#8217; Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>I had been hoping to listen to the <a href=\"http:\/\/commonsenseatheism.com\/?p=10150\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">interview with Richard Carrier on the blog Common Sense Atheism<\/a> ever since I learned about it via <a href=\"http:\/\/aigbusted.blogspot.com\/2011\/01\/carrier-on-jesus.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Answers in Genesis Busted<\/a>, <a href=\"http:\/\/richardcarrier.blogspot.com\/2011\/01\/csa-interview.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Richard\u2019s own blog<\/a>, and a commenter here. Fortunately today I noticed that <a href=\"http:\/\/commonsenseatheism.com\/?p=10150\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">there is a transcript<\/a>, which meant that I could read it, which takes less time than listening.<\/p>\n<p>The central point is that <a href=\"http:\/\/openparachute.wordpress.com\/2011\/01\/04\/deriving-ought-from-is-scientifically\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Richard Carrier<\/a> is seeking to quantify historical probabilities in more concrete, mathematical terms \u2013 in terms of <a href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/bayes-theorem\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">Bayes\u2019 Theorem<\/a>, to be precise. Carrier argues that, in ideal cases, this is what historians are doing now, but often in a way that lacks quantitative rigor and thus is more prone to subjectivity, with the result that assessments of what is \u201cprobable\u201d in fact vary.<\/p>\n<p>If he can pull it off, and find an academic publisher for his work, this should create quite an interesting discussion.<\/p>\n<p>What leads me to be somewhat\u00a0pessimistic of how this will\u00a0be applied\u00a0in practice is Carrier\u2019s positive description of Earl Doherty\u2019s work, which he describes as \u201cjust short of Ph.D. quality.\u201d Now, to be fair, his point seems to be that there have been PhD theses in history that were worse than what Doherty produced, and since they get taken seriously enough to be engaged by historians (even if only to argue against them), so should Doherty.\u00a0Be that as it may, Carrier seems to me to be too willing to take what is a cosmology that seems to be distinctive of the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.earlychristianwritings.com\/ascension.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Ascension of Isaiah<\/a> (which, I agree with Carrier, far more people ought to read and study) and assume it could provide the background to early Christian thought, and provide a setting for the Jesus myth in the sky rather than on earth. To take a work that is only attested in a Christian redaction in a <a href=\"http:\/\/exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com\/2010\/09\/mythlocating-firmament.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">later time<\/a>, and trust it to provide information about thought in an earlier time, is something that Carrier in this very same interview is unwilling to do with Josephus. And so it seems to me that, were someone to apply a mathematical assessment of Carrier\u2019s consistency in his treatment of sources, they might find this problematic. But I will admit that figuring out the equation for such a problem is beyond my level of mathematical skill. But since the same\u00a0may be true for many scholars of antiquity, there will certainly be challenges for the adoption of more mathematical models for historical research, even if Carrier\u2019s case is persuasive.<\/p>\n<p>Some indication of what\u00a0Carrier has been working on can be seen in his chapter in the recent book <span><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Sources-Jesus-Tradition-Separating-History\/dp\/1616141891?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=jamefmcgrshom-20&amp;link_code=btl&amp;camp=213689&amp;creative=392969\" target=\"_blank\" class=\" decorated-link\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>Sources of the Jesus Tradition: Separating History from Myth<\/em><\/a>.<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"\" border=\"0\" height=\"1\" src=\"https:\/\/www.assoc-amazon.com\/e\/ir?t=jamefmcgrshom-20&amp;l=btl&amp;camp=213689&amp;creative=392969&amp;o=1&amp;a=1616141891\" style=\"border-bottom: medium none;border-left: medium none;border-right: medium none;border-top: medium none;margin: 0px;padding-bottom: 0px !important;padding-left: 0px !important;padding-right: 0px !important;padding-top: 0px !important\" width=\"1\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I will await the publication of the academically-articulated and documented form of Carrier\u2019s case before trying to evaluate it, for obvious reasons. In the mean time, I am grateful for his articulation of a point about which we both seem to agree: It is\u00a0largely\u00a0due to the enthusiastic proponents of forms of and arguments for mythicism that are riddled with errors of fact and problematic assumptions that makes it hard to take mythicism seriously. He also points out in <a href=\"http:\/\/richardcarrier.blogspot.com\/2011\/01\/csa-interview.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">the comments section on his own blog<\/a>\u00a0(including to one regular commenter here who often\u00a0claims the contrary) that the issues he is addressing are about historical study in general, not limited to the study of Jesus or early Christianity, and he also emphasizes that some scholars trained in New Testament have excellent\u00a0training in historical methods and\u00a0do excellent historical work, citing Bart Ehrman as an example.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And so I look forward to Carrier finding a publisher for his book, and seeing what precisely he argues and how. And in the mean time, I hope that some of those responsible for making it hard to take mythicism seriously will take Carrier\u2019s comments on this subject to heart \u2013\u00a0if having mythicism of some sort (and not just their own implausible brand of it) be given a serious consideration by historians and scholars is truly their aim.<\/span><\/p>\n<div class=\"blogger-post-footer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\" src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/tracker\/7622297540113836091-8171999917712311662?l=exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com\" alt=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I had been hoping to listen to the interview with Richard Carrier on the blog Common Sense Atheism ever since I learned about it via Answers in Genesis Busted, Richard\u2019s own blog, and a commenter here. Fortunately today I noticed that there is a transcript, which meant that I could read it, which takes less [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":136,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-471","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Richard Carrier on Bayes&#039; Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I had been hoping to listen to the interview with Richard Carrier on the blog Common Sense Atheism ever since I learned about it via Answers in Genesis\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Richard Carrier on Bayes&#039; Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"I had been hoping to listen to the interview with Richard Carrier on the blog Common Sense Atheism ever since I learned about it via Answers in Genesis\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2011-01-05T00:39:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/www.assoc-amazon.com\/e\/ir?t=jamefmcgrshom-20&amp;l=btl&amp;camp=213689&amp;creative=392969&amp;o=1&amp;a=1616141891\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"James F. McGrath\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@ReligionProf\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"James F. McGrath\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"3 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html\",\"name\":\"Richard Carrier on Bayes' Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2011-01-05T00:39:00+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2011-01-05T00:39:00+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf\"},\"description\":\"I had been hoping to listen to the interview with Richard Carrier on the blog Common Sense Atheism ever since I learned about it via Answers in Genesis\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Richard Carrier on Bayes&#8217; Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/\",\"name\":\"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath\",\"description\":\"The Blog of Dr. James F. McGrath, Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University, Indianapolis\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf\",\"name\":\"James F. McGrath\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g\",\"caption\":\"James F. McGrath\"},\"description\":\"Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. BD University of London, PhD Durham University. Author of John's Apologetic Christology, The Only True God, Theology and Science Fiction, and The Burial of Jesus, as well as (with Charles Haberl of Rutgers University) the two-volume Mandaean Book of John critical edition, translation, and commentary. Also author of numerous articles (and a few science fiction short stories) and the editor or co-editor of several volumes.\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3Ge8ul5\",\"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/\",\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jamesfmcgrath\/\",\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jfmcgrat\/\",\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ReligionProf\",\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/religionprof\",\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/religionprof\",\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/James_F._McGrath\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/author\/james-f-mcgrath\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Richard Carrier on Bayes' Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus","description":"I had been hoping to listen to the interview with Richard Carrier on the blog Common Sense Atheism ever since I learned about it via Answers in Genesis","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Richard Carrier on Bayes' Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus","og_description":"I had been hoping to listen to the interview with Richard Carrier on the blog Common Sense Atheism ever since I learned about it via Answers in Genesis","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html","og_site_name":"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath","article_author":"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/","article_published_time":"2011-01-05T00:39:00+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"http:\/\/www.assoc-amazon.com\/e\/ir?t=jamefmcgrshom-20&amp;l=btl&amp;camp=213689&amp;creative=392969&amp;o=1&amp;a=1616141891"}],"author":"James F. McGrath","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@ReligionProf","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"James F. McGrath","Est. reading time":"3 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html","name":"Richard Carrier on Bayes' Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website"},"datePublished":"2011-01-05T00:39:00+00:00","dateModified":"2011-01-05T00:39:00+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf"},"description":"I had been hoping to listen to the interview with Richard Carrier on the blog Common Sense Atheism ever since I learned about it via Answers in Genesis","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2011\/01\/richard-carrier-on-bayes-theorem-historical-probability-and-the-existence-of-jesus.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Richard Carrier on Bayes&#8217; Theorem, Historical Probability, and the Existence of Jesus"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/","name":"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath","description":"The Blog of Dr. James F. McGrath, Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University, Indianapolis","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf","name":"James F. McGrath","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","caption":"James F. McGrath"},"description":"Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. BD University of London, PhD Durham University. Author of John's Apologetic Christology, The Only True God, Theology and Science Fiction, and The Burial of Jesus, as well as (with Charles Haberl of Rutgers University) the two-volume Mandaean Book of John critical edition, translation, and commentary. Also author of numerous articles (and a few science fiction short stories) and the editor or co-editor of several volumes.","sameAs":["https:\/\/amzn.to\/3Ge8ul5","http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/","https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jamesfmcgrath\/","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jfmcgrat\/","https:\/\/twitter.com\/ReligionProf","http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/religionprof","https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/religionprof","https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/James_F._McGrath"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/author\/james-f-mcgrath"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/471","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/136"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=471"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/471\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=471"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=471"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=471"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}