{"id":71652,"date":"2019-11-05T05:01:13","date_gmt":"2019-11-05T10:01:13","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?p=71652"},"modified":"2019-10-25T09:18:25","modified_gmt":"2019-10-25T13:18:25","slug":"trinity-and-love","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html","title":{"rendered":"Trinity and Love"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/new-co-authored-paper-dormant-dispositions-agent-value-and-the-trinity\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Dale Tuggy recently offered<\/a> a counterargument to the claim that Trinitarian thinking is correct, or at least a useful image of God, because without a plurality of persons there cannot be mutual love. By way of response, Tuggy said that one could do the same with forgiveness and say that God cannot be eternally forgiving unless there is someone to forgive, and thus there must be an eternal sinner in the godhead if this logic is sound!<\/p>\n<p>What do others make of this argument? I confess that the one thing that has kept me appreciating the imagery of trinitarianism (even though the Trinity is not a concept that is found in or even emerges in a straightforward way from the New Testament) is the way if offers an image of God as eternal love and eternally loving. I don\u2019t think the argument works that this must parallel God being eternally forgiving. If God is eternally capable of perfect forgiveness, does it have to be actualized, which would require there being a sinner eternally present in the Godhead to be the object of forgiveness? Indeed, mightn\u2019t eternal love provide sufficient basis for forgiveness once appropriate objects appeared? To be eternally loving, on the other hand, seems to require more than one person. The claim is that God is love, and that God is forgiving. Yet the view that God is merely capable of loving but had no one to love until creation seems different than the view that God was always capable of forgiving and ready to forgive, but there was no one as yet in need of forgiveness.<\/p>\n<p>Of course, if one accepts that any language that ascribes personhood akin to that of humans to God is idolatrous, one will recognize that these are at best metaphors and symbols, and at worst idolatrous anthropomorphisms. The question for me is not whether God is \u201creally\u201d three persons, but whether tripersonal images of God point to something about the mystery of the divine that unipersonal imagery lacks.<\/p>\n<p>Either way, the meme in this blog post was worth sharing, as I\u2019m sure you\u2019ll agree when you see it below\u2026<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-71655\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/719\/2019\/10\/love-triangle-392x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"392\" height=\"450\"><\/p>\n<p>https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/new-co-authored-paper-dormant-dispositions-agent-value-and-the-trinity\/<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dale Tuggy recently offered a counterargument to the claim that Trinitarian thinking is correct, or at least a useful image of God, because without a plurality of persons there cannot be mutual love. By way of response, Tuggy said that one could do the same with forgiveness and say that God cannot be eternally forgiving [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":136,"featured_media":71655,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[60,101],"tags":[6741,9084,12508,12919,12921],"class_list":["post-71652","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-monotheism","category-theology","tag-love","tag-philosophy","tag-theology","tag-trinitarianism","tag-trinity"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Trinity and Love<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Dale Tuggy recently offered a counterargument to the claim that Trinitarian thinking is correct, or at least a useful image of God, because without a\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Trinity and Love\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Dale Tuggy recently offered a counterargument to the claim that Trinitarian thinking is correct, or at least a useful image of God, because without a\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2019-11-05T10:01:13+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2019-10-25T13:18:25+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/719\/2019\/10\/love-triangle-392x450.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"392\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"450\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"James F. McGrath\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@ReligionProf\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"James F. McGrath\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"2 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html\",\"name\":\"Trinity and Love\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2019-11-05T10:01:13+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2019-10-25T13:18:25+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf\"},\"description\":\"Dale Tuggy recently offered a counterargument to the claim that Trinitarian thinking is correct, or at least a useful image of God, because without a\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Trinity and Love\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/\",\"name\":\"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath\",\"description\":\"The Blog of Dr. James F. McGrath, Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University, Indianapolis\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf\",\"name\":\"James F. McGrath\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g\",\"caption\":\"James F. McGrath\"},\"description\":\"Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. BD University of London, PhD Durham University. Author of John's Apologetic Christology, The Only True God, Theology and Science Fiction, and The Burial of Jesus, as well as (with Charles Haberl of Rutgers University) the two-volume Mandaean Book of John critical edition, translation, and commentary. Also author of numerous articles (and a few science fiction short stories) and the editor or co-editor of several volumes.\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3Ge8ul5\",\"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/\",\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jamesfmcgrath\/\",\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jfmcgrat\/\",\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ReligionProf\",\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/religionprof\",\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/religionprof\",\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/James_F._McGrath\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/author\/james-f-mcgrath\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Trinity and Love","description":"Dale Tuggy recently offered a counterargument to the claim that Trinitarian thinking is correct, or at least a useful image of God, because without a","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Trinity and Love","og_description":"Dale Tuggy recently offered a counterargument to the claim that Trinitarian thinking is correct, or at least a useful image of God, because without a","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html","og_site_name":"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath","article_author":"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/","article_published_time":"2019-11-05T10:01:13+00:00","article_modified_time":"2019-10-25T13:18:25+00:00","og_image":[{"width":392,"height":450,"url":"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/719\/2019\/10\/love-triangle-392x450.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"James F. McGrath","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@ReligionProf","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"James F. McGrath","Est. reading time":"2 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html","name":"Trinity and Love","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website"},"datePublished":"2019-11-05T10:01:13+00:00","dateModified":"2019-10-25T13:18:25+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf"},"description":"Dale Tuggy recently offered a counterargument to the claim that Trinitarian thinking is correct, or at least a useful image of God, because without a","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2019\/11\/trinity-and-love.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Trinity and Love"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/","name":"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath","description":"The Blog of Dr. James F. McGrath, Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University, Indianapolis","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf","name":"James F. McGrath","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","caption":"James F. McGrath"},"description":"Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. BD University of London, PhD Durham University. Author of John's Apologetic Christology, The Only True God, Theology and Science Fiction, and The Burial of Jesus, as well as (with Charles Haberl of Rutgers University) the two-volume Mandaean Book of John critical edition, translation, and commentary. Also author of numerous articles (and a few science fiction short stories) and the editor or co-editor of several volumes.","sameAs":["https:\/\/amzn.to\/3Ge8ul5","http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/","https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jamesfmcgrath\/","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jfmcgrat\/","https:\/\/twitter.com\/ReligionProf","http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/religionprof","https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/religionprof","https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/James_F._McGrath"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/author\/james-f-mcgrath"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/71652","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/136"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=71652"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/71652\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/71655"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=71652"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=71652"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=71652"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}