{"id":7432,"date":"2012-04-20T12:42:31","date_gmt":"2012-04-20T16:42:31","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?p=7432"},"modified":"2012-04-20T12:42:31","modified_gmt":"2012-04-20T16:42:31","slug":"carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html","title":{"rendered":"Carrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

\"\"<\/a>\"\"In responding to Bart Ehrman\u2019s book about mythicism, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth<\/a>\"\"<\/em>, Richard Carrier points out some genuine errors (e.g. that Carrier\u2019s degree is in Classics \u2013 although that would not at any rate be an insult) and alleged errors in a lengthy review, which approaches the matter in a fashion I am quickly coming to associate with Carrier<\/a>. He exclaims that the book is rubbish and error-laden loudly at the start, and then when discussing the details, notes that some errors are minor, some may not be errors at all, and most or all of them do not affect his main point.<\/p>\n

For instance, Carrier claims that Ehrman is wrong to say that \u201cthere is no penis-nosed statue of Peter the cock in the Vatican or anywhere else except in books like this, which love to make things up\u201d and yet acknowledges that there is no such depiction of Peter, only of the god Priapus, which to everyone but Acharya S is not the same thing. Why is Carrier disputing Ehrman\u2019s claim at all, when Ehrman did not say that there are no such figures, but only that the claim that there is a depiction of Peter in this way is a figment of mythicist imagination?<\/p>\n

Carrier also writes, \u201cEhrman almost made me fall out of my chair when he discusses the letters of Pliny the Younger. He made two astonishing errors here that are indicative of his incompetence with ancient source materials.\u201d One of them is that Ehrman referred to Letter 10<\/em> when the appropriate reference is to Book 10<\/em> of Pliny\u2019s letters. This indicates something that I would have guessed to be true of Ehrman, as it is true of myself \u2013 we do not spend most of our time working in the letters of Pliny. Not only are references to books, chapters, letters, and other sections not standard across ancient works, but many ancient authors are referred to using older and more recent systems of dividing up their work. Anyone who has read much in the way of scholarly publications will know that when we move outside our area of expertise, such errors occur. To make much of it as though it were more than something that is par for the course in such circumstances is disingenuous. By all means, offer a warning and encourage scholars to pay more attention to determining the correct way of referring to passages. But don\u2019t make it more than that. If someone who is not an Islamicist refers to a section in the Qur\u2019an as a \u201cchapter\u201d rather than a \u201csura\u201d it has no bearing on whether what they say about the passage is correct. And since Pliny\u2019s testimony is only evidence of early Christianity, not directly of Jesus, Carrier\u2019s focus on this and hyperbole about it comes across as an attempt to distract from the substantive criticisms Ehrman offers.<\/p>\n

Carrier also spends a significant amount of time alleging that Ehrman is wrong about dying and rising gods even though Carrier himself has in the past said that such deities are unlikely to have been the prototype for Jesus. The main passage Carrier appeals to as evidence can be read online<\/a>, as do others<\/a>, and the ones I looked at illustrate rather than counter Ehrman\u2019s point, namely that scholars today consider the idea of a dying and rising god to be read into such texts rather than found in them.<\/p>\n

He also fails to address what the expectation of Jews regarding a Davidic anointed one was, and so does nothing to counter the widely-accepted fact that it is profoundly unlikely that someone invented a story about such a figure being crucified, and then tried to persuade their Jewish contemporaries that the figure in question is the long-awaited Davidic anointed one.<\/p>\n

I won\u2019t go into more detail, lest I likewise lose sight of the big picture in focusing on details. Even if Carrier were correct in all of his criticism (which even my own incredibly brief and admittedly superficial fact-checking suggests he is not), none of that would support the contention of mythicists that Jesus was originally thought of by Christians as a purely celestial figure, and thus more likely invented rather than an actual historical figure about whom myths and legends arose.<\/p>\n

Elsewhere online,\u00a0Ken Humphreys also offers an apologetics-style response<\/a>, somehow believing<\/a> that the fact that Christians were referred to as brothers makes it less rather than more likely that when \u201cJames the brother of the Lord\u201d is distinguished from other Christians by that title, it still means that he was just another Christian and not Jesus\u2019 brother in some sense that distinguished him from other Christians Paul mentions.<\/p>\n

I just don\u2019t get how such posts are supposed to represent a defense of mythicism<\/a>, as opposed to a rhetorical ploy that will only work on those already mythicists themselves<\/a>. (UPDATE: See too Jerry Coyne\u2019s discussion of Carrier\u2019s post)<\/a>.<\/p>\n

While Carrier\u2019s treatment lacks nuance and seeks to distract from the force of the book as a whole by quibbling over details (whether fairly in some cases or not so much in others), The Uncredible Hallq, also at Freethought Blogs, has a short review that sums up the heart of the matter clearly and effectively in far fewer words. Which of the two bloggers is closer to the spirit of the name of the site, I leave it to readers to decide<\/a>.<\/p>\n

NOTE: I have removed a section about Carrier\u2019s mention of Mark Goodacre\u2019s arguments against Q, in which I had showed the limitations of my vocabulary by understanding a refutation in only one of the two possible senses of the word, for which I apologize.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

In responding to Bart Ehrman\u2019s book about mythicism, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Richard Carrier points out some genuine errors (e.g. that Carrier\u2019s degree is in Classics \u2013 although that would not at any rate be an insult) and alleged errors in a lengthy review, which approaches the matter in […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":136,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[131,39,64],"tags":[332,1024,2907,4652,4660,7853,9252,9262,10359,10872],"class_list":["post-7432","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-christianity-religion","category-historical-jesus","category-mythicism","tag-acharya-s","tag-bart-ehrman","tag-dying-and-rising-gods","tag-historical-jesus","tag-history","tag-mythicism","tag-pliny","tag-plutarch","tag-richard-carrier","tag-scholarship"],"yoast_head":"\nCarrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"In responding to Bart Ehrman's book about mythicism, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Richard Carrier points out some\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Carrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"In responding to Bart Ehrman's book about mythicism, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Richard Carrier points out some\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2012-04-20T16:42:31+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/ws.assoc-amazon.com\/widgets\/q?_encoding=UTF8&Format=_SL160_&ASIN=0062204602&MarketPlace=US&ID=AsinImage&WS=1&tag=jamefmcgrshom-20&ServiceVersion=20070822\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"James F. McGrath\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@ReligionProf\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"James F. McGrath\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"5 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html\",\"name\":\"Carrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2012-04-20T16:42:31+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2012-04-20T16:42:31+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf\"},\"description\":\"In responding to Bart Ehrman's book about mythicism, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Richard Carrier points out some\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Carrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/\",\"name\":\"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath\",\"description\":\"The Blog of Dr. James F. McGrath, Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University, Indianapolis\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf\",\"name\":\"James F. McGrath\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g\",\"caption\":\"James F. McGrath\"},\"description\":\"Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. BD University of London, PhD Durham University. Author of John's Apologetic Christology, The Only True God, Theology and Science Fiction, and The Burial of Jesus, as well as (with Charles Haberl of Rutgers University) the two-volume Mandaean Book of John critical edition, translation, and commentary. Also author of numerous articles (and a few science fiction short stories) and the editor or co-editor of several volumes.\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3Ge8ul5\",\"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/\",\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jamesfmcgrath\/\",\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jfmcgrat\/\",\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ReligionProf\",\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/religionprof\",\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/religionprof\",\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/James_F._McGrath\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/author\/james-f-mcgrath\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Carrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman","description":"In responding to Bart Ehrman's book about mythicism, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Richard Carrier points out some","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Carrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman","og_description":"In responding to Bart Ehrman's book about mythicism, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Richard Carrier points out some","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html","og_site_name":"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath","article_author":"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/","article_published_time":"2012-04-20T16:42:31+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"http:\/\/ws.assoc-amazon.com\/widgets\/q?_encoding=UTF8&Format=_SL160_&ASIN=0062204602&MarketPlace=US&ID=AsinImage&WS=1&tag=jamefmcgrshom-20&ServiceVersion=20070822"}],"author":"James F. McGrath","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@ReligionProf","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"James F. McGrath","Est. reading time":"5 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html","name":"Carrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website"},"datePublished":"2012-04-20T16:42:31+00:00","dateModified":"2012-04-20T16:42:31+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf"},"description":"In responding to Bart Ehrman's book about mythicism, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Richard Carrier points out some","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2012\/04\/carrier-and-other-mythicists-reacting-to-ehrman.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Carrier and other Mythicists Reacting to Ehrman"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/","name":"Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath","description":"The Blog of Dr. James F. McGrath, Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University, Indianapolis","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf","name":"James F. McGrath","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","caption":"James F. McGrath"},"description":"Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. BD University of London, PhD Durham University. Author of John's Apologetic Christology, The Only True God, Theology and Science Fiction, and The Burial of Jesus, as well as (with Charles Haberl of Rutgers University) the two-volume Mandaean Book of John critical edition, translation, and commentary. Also author of numerous articles (and a few science fiction short stories) and the editor or co-editor of several volumes.","sameAs":["https:\/\/amzn.to\/3Ge8ul5","http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/","https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jamesfmcgrath\/","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jfmcgrat\/","https:\/\/twitter.com\/ReligionProf","http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/religionprof","https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/religionprof","https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/James_F._McGrath"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/author\/james-f-mcgrath"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7432","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/136"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=7432"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7432\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=7432"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=7432"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=7432"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}