{"id":92759,"date":"2021-12-13T05:27:55","date_gmt":"2021-12-13T10:27:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?p=92759"},"modified":"2021-12-09T13:14:17","modified_gmt":"2021-12-09T18:14:17","slug":"mythicism-and-typology","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/2021\/12\/mythicism-and-typology.html","title":{"rendered":"Mythicism and Typology"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>I shared some thoughts in comments on this blog related to mythicism and historical method. First, here is what I said in response to a claim attributed to Robert M. Price to the effect that the criterion of dissimilarity and the criterion of embarrassment are in tension with one another:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Saying that there was a reason for everything to be included or else it would not have is as true and as untrue in the case of the Gospels as any other historical or fictional works. One reason for including things was that Jesus said them and he was felt to be authoritative, even if they were unsure what he meant. Another was that enemies insisted on remembering something Jesus said that his followers and supporters would have preferred he hadn\u2019t and needing to do damage control. The notion that dissimilarity and embarrassment are at odds as principles for evaluating material simply is not true.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>On Jesus and John as possibly thought of by Gospel authors as akin to Elijah and Elisha, and Jesus as new Moses in Matthew:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Comparing two people to biblical counterparts has no bearing on their historicity. I always signed my messages to my mentor Jimmy Dunn \u201cJames the Lesser\u201d and that makes neither us nor the historicity of the connection between us any less likely. The notion that echoing the Bible suggests invention is one of those truly bizarre mythicist arguments that really needs to be laid to rest.<\/p>\n<p>I think that we determine this as an aim of Matthew by seeing how he edits his source material. By looking at other texts which also tell of Jesus\u2019 life and teaching we can see some of what Matthew has done. The infancy story would be of doubtful historicity apart from that, simply because of its genre and the miraculous elements. The reasoning \u201crelated to Moses as type, therefore invented\u201d could, in the absence of other evidence, lead one to assume that not only the organization and location of the Sermon on the Mount is fabricated but all the contents thereof. Yet Luke\/Q and the letters of Paul provide evidence that that is not the case. It is also conceivable in theory that Jesus could have seen himself as a Moses-like figure. Many historical people take earlier heroes of their faith or nation as prototypes. For these reasons resemblances are not a basis for determination of historicity on their own.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/ehrmanblog.org\/but-why-doesnt-paul-say-more-about-the-historical-jesus\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Bart Ehrman asked why Paul didn\u2019t say more about the historical Jesus<\/a>. I think the answer to this question is multifaceted. On the one hand, writing letters to Christian communities to which Paul had conveyed what he knows about Jesus\u2019 life and teaching, nothing more than allusions was called for in most instances. Writing was not the easy activity it is in the experience so many of us today take for granted, and one didn\u2019t write what wasn\u2019t deemed necessary. It was time-consuming and expensive, among other things. On the other hand, Paul\u2019s authority was regularly being challenged by people who claimed to have a direct connection to better sources of information about Jesus. Could you imagine if Paul put what he had heard in writing and it was challenged by someone who felt they could say \u201cactually, Paul gets that wrong, the Jerusalem apostles who knew Jesus more directly said this\u2026\u201d? There was nothing to gain from writing more about what Jesus said and did, and a lot for Paul to risk losing if he did so.<\/p>\n<p>Mike Bird has been blogging about Christology quite a bit lately. In <a href=\"https:\/\/michaelfbird.substack.com\/p\/jesus-from-galilean-prophet-to-gentile\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">one blog post he shared several quotes about Jesus\u2019 \u201cdivine\u201d status<\/a>. For a long time scholars (other than the most conservative) have argued that the key development in Christology is from Jesus as supreme human agent of the one God endowed with divine authority second only to the one God, to Jesus as one who is ontologically what he was initially understood to be functionally. But that\u2019s an anachronistic way of putting it and misses that being given the divine name and exalted to divine status involved a transformation of status AND of essence. Perhaps the best way to put it is that the key development is from Jesus as one who is made to be functionally and ontologically God\u2019s viceroy, to one who occupied that status and had that essence for all eternity.<\/p>\n<p>Dale Tuggy blogged twice about Mark 13:32: <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/r-t-france-on-mark-1332\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">once on R. T. France\u2019s treatment of it<\/a>, and <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-net-bible-on-mark-1332\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">once on the NET Bible<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>Also of related interest:<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/talesoftimesforgotten.com\/2021\/11\/29\/the-surprisingly-long-history-of-the-conspiracy-theory-that-ancient-rome-didnt-exist\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">The Surprisingly Long History of the Conspiracy Theory that Rome Didn\u2019t Exist<\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.psephizo.com\/biblical-studies\/a-seasonal-reminder-jesus-was-not-born-in-a-stable-and-it-matters\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Ian Paul provides his annual reminder that Jesus wasn\u2019t born in a stable<\/a><\/p>\n<p>Mike Bird asks, <a href=\"https:\/\/michaelfbird.substack.com\/p\/did-jesus-claim-to-be-the-messiah\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">\u201cDid Jesus Claim to be the Messiah?\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"2Tmzoxn3yW\"><p><a href=\"https:\/\/retrospectjournal.com\/2021\/11\/14\/are-the-gospels-reliable-sources-part-five-since-i-myself-have-carefully-investigated-everything-from-the-beginning-the-content-of\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Are\u00a0the Gospels\u00a0Reliable\u00a0Sources?\u00a0Part Five:\u00a0\u2018Since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning\u2026\u2019\u00a0\u2013 The content of the Gospels\u00a0<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"\u201cAre\u00a0the Gospels\u00a0Reliable\u00a0Sources?\u00a0Part Five:\u00a0\u2018Since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning\u2026\u2019\u00a0\u2013 The content of the Gospels\u00a0\u201d \u2014 Retrospect Journal\" src=\"https:\/\/retrospectjournal.com\/2021\/11\/14\/are-the-gospels-reliable-sources-part-five-since-i-myself-have-carefully-investigated-everything-from-the-beginning-the-content-of\/embed\/#?secret=dGd05tVlMq#?secret=2Tmzoxn3yW\" data-secret=\"2Tmzoxn3yW\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"rjp4RPspoR\"><p><a href=\"https:\/\/retrospectjournal.com\/2021\/11\/21\/are-the-gospels-reliable-sources-part-6-they-will-turn-their-ears-away-from-the-truth-and-turn-aside-to-myths-the-extracanonical-gospels\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Are\u00a0the Gospels\u00a0Reliable\u00a0Sources? Part Six: \u201cThey will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths\u2026\u201d \u2013\u00a0The \u2018extracanonical Gospels\u2019\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"\u201cAre\u00a0the Gospels\u00a0Reliable\u00a0Sources? Part Six: \u201cThey will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths\u2026\u201d \u2013\u00a0The \u2018extracanonical Gospels\u2019\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u201d \u2014 Retrospect Journal\" src=\"https:\/\/retrospectjournal.com\/2021\/11\/21\/are-the-gospels-reliable-sources-part-6-they-will-turn-their-ears-away-from-the-truth-and-turn-aside-to-myths-the-extracanonical-gospels\/embed\/#?secret=Lu6YWjXWJD#?secret=rjp4RPspoR\" data-secret=\"rjp4RPspoR\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"cXURQf6IiY\"><p><a href=\"https:\/\/craigkeener.com\/reliability-of-the-gospels-in-4-paragraphs\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Reliability of the Gospels (in 4 paragraphs)<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"\u201cReliability of the Gospels (in 4 paragraphs)\u201d \u2014 Bible Backgrounds\" src=\"https:\/\/craigkeener.com\/reliability-of-the-gospels-in-4-paragraphs\/embed\/#?secret=EgbvIwpJDJ#?secret=cXURQf6IiY\" data-secret=\"cXURQf6IiY\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bobcornwall.com\/2021\/11\/the-beginning-of-birth-pangs-lectionary.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Bob Cornwall on the \u201cbeginning of birthpangs\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n<p>Free book digitized:<\/p>\n<p>https:\/\/biblicalstudies.org.uk\/blog\/jewish-and-christian-messiah-by-vincent-henry-stanton\/<\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"f3YgfVTBJU\"><p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bibleplaces.com\/blog\/2021\/11\/new-book-messiahs-ministry-by-william-varner\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">New Book: Messiah\u2019s Ministry, by William Varner<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"\u201cNew Book: Messiah\u2019s Ministry, by William Varner\u201d \u2014 BiblePlaces.com\" src=\"https:\/\/www.bibleplaces.com\/blog\/2021\/11\/new-book-messiahs-ministry-by-william-varner\/embed\/#?secret=yxfBkwcvhF#?secret=f3YgfVTBJU\" data-secret=\"f3YgfVTBJU\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"icmmtFEu48\"><p><a href=\"https:\/\/biblicalscholarship.wordpress.com\/2021\/11\/15\/commentary-on-matthew-23\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Commentary on Matthew\u00a023<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"\u201cCommentary on Matthew\u00a023\u201d \u2014 Biblical Scholarship\" src=\"https:\/\/biblicalscholarship.wordpress.com\/2021\/11\/15\/commentary-on-matthew-23\/embed\/#?secret=7xicaNkVip#?secret=icmmtFEu48\" data-secret=\"icmmtFEu48\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/amplifymedia.com\/amplify-live\/?fbclid=IwAR1DWR77lMesQdBfnPzTpEcMGdpE7xm06dszKi-0jtUdLU48PV_E8ksZOd4\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Interview with Amy-Jill Levine<\/a>:<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Amplify Live: Why Did He Say That? Examine Jesus\u2019 Most Difficult Teachings\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/BOle5KbLJBU?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/valerietarico.com\/2021\/11\/11\/buddha-jesus-and-mohammed-stepped-into-history-or-maybe-they-didnt\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Valerie Tarico continues to turn to a \u201chistory buff\u201d rather than historians as her primary source when it comes to ancient figures such as Jesus<\/a>, which is disappointing, but I\u2019m glad she at least makes reference and links to Bart Ehrman and I.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I shared some thoughts in comments on this blog related to mythicism and historical method. First, here is what I said in response to a claim attributed to Robert M. Price to the effect that the criterion of dissimilarity and the criterion of embarrassment are in tension with one another: Saying that there was a [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":136,"featured_media":65469,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[64],"tags":[4652,5875,7853],"class_list":["post-92759","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mythicism","tag-historical-jesus","tag-john-the-baptist","tag-mythicism"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Mythicism and Typology<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I shared some thoughts in comments on this blog related to mythicism and historical method. 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Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University, Indianapolis","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/78342576667b872e3d259c153ce4c5bf","name":"James F. McGrath","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/88ca096942acd474313f7ef4227a49da?s=96&d=identicon&r=g","caption":"James F. McGrath"},"description":"Clarence L. Goodwin Chair in New Testament Language and Literature at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. BD University of London, PhD Durham University. Author of John's Apologetic Christology, The Only True God, Theology and Science Fiction, and The Burial of Jesus, as well as (with Charles Haberl of Rutgers University) the two-volume Mandaean Book of John critical edition, translation, and commentary. Also author of numerous articles (and a few science fiction short stories) and the editor or co-editor of several volumes.","sameAs":["https:\/\/amzn.to\/3Ge8ul5","http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/religionprof\/","https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/jamesfmcgrath\/","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jfmcgrat\/","https:\/\/twitter.com\/ReligionProf","http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/religionprof","https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/religionprof","https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/James_F._McGrath"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/author\/james-f-mcgrath"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/92759","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/136"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=92759"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/92759\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/65469"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=92759"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=92759"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/religionprof\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=92759"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}