{"id":315,"date":"2014-11-09T10:40:00","date_gmt":"2014-11-09T10:40:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/admin.patheos.com\/blogs\/rhetoricraceandreligion\/2014\/11\/retribution-and-rhetoric-in-the-nt-epistles-brad-jersak-with-peter-hordern.html"},"modified":"2014-11-09T10:40:00","modified_gmt":"2014-11-09T10:40:00","slug":"retribution-and-rhetoric-in-the-nt-epistles-brad-jersak-with-peter-hordern","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/rhetoricraceandreligion\/2014\/11\/retribution-and-rhetoric-in-the-nt-epistles-brad-jersak-with-peter-hordern.html","title":{"rendered":"Retribution and Rhetoric in the NT Epistles – Brad Jersak with Peter Hordern"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<\/head>

The following is a dialogue between Brad Jersak and Peter Hordern, about Pauls\u2019 use of retribution language (in 2 Thessalonians 1), rhetorical criticism and the nonviolence of God.<\/span><\/p>\n

Peter: I\u2019m continuing to wrestle with the idea of God as nonviolent. I feel like I see the truth of God\u2019s nonviolence through Christ and his teachings, particularly on forgiveness. However, then I also read what Paul writes, especially in his epistles to the Thessalonians, which refer to end times and Gods punishment. <\/p>\n

What do we do with that? Is it our wishful thinking that God really is as loving as we want Him to be? Or do we pass off Paul\u2019s writings as a man trying to encourage a church in persecution with Gods justice, in order to give meaning to their suffering? Are there different translation possibilities? What do the words \u2018punishment\u2019 that Paul writes about really mean?<\/p>\n

Brad: I do have some thoughts about this, as did certain church fathers like Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD). First, he pointed out that Paul never uses the Greek words that we\u2019d associate with retributive \u2018punishment,\u2019 but rather, always uses words best translated \u2018correction.\u2019 Let\u2019s start with him. The following is an excerpt from my book, Her Gates Will Never Be Shut:<\/a><\/p>\n

Clement\u2019s importance, in my mind, is that he clarifies the New Testament language for \u201cpunishment.\u201d (cf. esp. Paed. 1.5; 1.8 ANF 2). Clement insists that God\u2019s \u201ccorrection\u201d (paideia\u2014Heb 12:9) and \u201cchastisement\u201d (kolasis\u2014Matt 25:46) is as a loving Father, only and always meant for the healing and salvation of the whole world. He denies that God ever inflicts \u201cpunishment\u201d (tim\u014dria\u2014Heb 10:29\u2014vengeance) in the vengeful sense, a word Jesus never used. Watch how Clement ties judgment to correction with a view to redemption:<\/p>\n

For all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe by the Lord of the universe, both generally and particularly. . . But necessarycorrections, through the goodness of the great overseeing Judge, both by the attendant angels, and by various acts of anticipative judgment, and by the perfect judgment, compel egregious sinners to repent. (Strom. 7.2 ANF 2).<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

\u2026 One can see how Clement read God\u2019s corrective acts through the parental love emphasized in Heb 12:5\u201311, where we read that God disciplines those that he loves as dear children. For Clement, Providence uses corrections (padeiai) or chastisements (kolasis) when we fall away, but only for our good, only for our salvation. But God does not punish (tim\u014dria),which is retaliation for evil. (Strom. 7.16 ANF 2).<\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

<\/span><\/i><\/div>\n
God deals with sin through correction, not punishment. That\u2019s Clement, that\u2019s Hebrews, that\u2019s Hosea. The chastisements of God are disciplinary: not because divine justice demands satisfaction, payback, or wrath, but because a patient God is raising beloved children who tend to learn the hard way. The hardest lesson we learn is the lesson of the Cross: the jarring revelation that somehow each of us is complicit in the crucifixion of perfect Love (Zech 12:10), yet in love God forgave us (1 John 4:9\u201310).\u00a0<\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

<\/span><\/i><\/div>\n
\n
\u2026The Cross is a revelation of God\u2019s love, our violence, and Jesus\u2019 power to forgive and redeem\u2014all at once. Don\u2019t miss this point, because it marks a major fork in the theological trail. For centuries, I fear that we veered when Clement already had it right.<\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

<\/span><\/div>\n

<\/span><\/div>\n
There are a also a few strange things at play in texts like 2 Thess. 1 and broader trends across the New Testament meta-narrative that require careful consideration. Here are a few starting points:\n

Read the rest here<\/a><\/p><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The following is a dialogue between Brad Jersak and Peter Hordern, about Pauls\u2019 use of retribution language (in 2 Thessalonians 1), rhetorical criticism and the nonviolence of God. Peter: I\u2019m continuing to wrestle with the idea of God as nonviolent. I feel like I see the truth of God\u2019s nonviolence through Christ and his teachings, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-315","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"\nRetribution and Rhetoric in the NT Epistles - Brad Jersak with Peter Hordern<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"The following is a dialogue between Brad Jersak and Peter Hordern, about Pauls' use of retribution language (in 2 Thessalonians 1), rhetorical criticism\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/rhetoricraceandreligion\/2014\/11\/retribution-and-rhetoric-in-the-nt-epistles-brad-jersak-with-peter-hordern.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Retribution and Rhetoric in the NT Epistles - 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