[This is the second part of my interview with Steve Gershom. I posted the first half yesterday<\/a>. Gershom has also written a four-part series about orientation change on his own blog, SteveGershom.com<\/a>.]<\/p>\n Have you had any bad experiences with Christian organizations who try to bully or shame you into becoming heterosexual?<\/strong><\/p>\n I know those things exist, but I\u2019ve never seen them. Any organization I\u2019ve come up against, there\u2019s always been some good and some bad.<\/p>\n You spoke about \u201cstrands of homoeroticism\u201d that run through most people, but also of the pathologies that often go along with homosexuality. So if you do see your homosexuality as a problem that needs fixing, what is the best way to approach it? Head-on, or through some more indirect approach to emotional health?<\/strong><\/p>\n That very much depends on who you talk to. To my mind, there\u2019s some parts of the various methods of reorientation therapy which I think are a great idea.<\/p>\n Like what?<\/strong><\/p>\n Like, some of the things they want to help men achieve are things that would be good for any man, straight or gay. Things like realizing that every human being has some amount of brokenness or twistedness relating to their own and other genders. It\u2019s just as pathological for a straight guy to be working out at the gym for 16 hours a week and sleeping with three women at a time, because he has messed up idea of what masculinity and femininity are.<\/p>\n The good parts of the \u201cex-gay\u201d movement are parts that make people address their brokenness in the realm of gender. Their real brokenness.<\/p>\n I went on a retreat which is controversial, a \u201cJourney into Manhood\u201d weekend. It\u2019s been used as an example of the worst things about ex-gay world. And there were some friggin\u2019 creepy things about it!<\/p>\n Like what?<\/strong><\/p>\n Like way the men who had been in the program treated each other: constant back massages, syrupy voices, stuff that dudes don\u2019t do. Supposedly it was to teach men to be men, to get in touch with the masculinity that was always there. A lot of it was that, but a lot of it was: Well, we\u2019re not going to have sex, but let\u2019s do everything else, and call it \u201cauthentic mind-heart connection.\u201d<\/p>\n But some of the good thing were learning some of the patterns that existed in my own ways of interacting with men, and recognizing some of the assumptions I unconsciously thought men were thinking about me. Learning to realize when a past trauma is still affecting your patterns of relating to other people. Those thing were legitimately dealt with in that weekend.<\/p>\n So, would you recommend an experience like this, with the good and the bad parts?<\/strong><\/p>\n If you go in thinking, \u201cI\u2019ll swallow this thing whole!\u201d \u2014 of course you\u2019re going to get messed up. You have to discern whether you\u2019re psychologically healthy enough to tell the difference between the good and the bad parts. There are people who are not in a psychological state to be ready for that kind of discernment.<\/p>\n I would say it\u2019s probably always a mistake to try to directly pursue heterosexuality. But I don\u2019t see anything wrong with trying to locate where you wounds are, and seeking healing for them. You may or may not hold out hope that as you heal, you might get \u201cless gay.\u201d I still recommend both the book, Growth Into Manhood<\/em><\/a>, and the weekend, with the good and the bad, and if you\u2019re able to discern the difference, then do so. The guy who wrote the First Things column you mentioned <\/a>picked out the gross, bad things, highlighted them, and took them out of context.<\/p>\n Say you were talking to someone who\u2019s just admitted to himself that he\u2019s gay, and wants to try to change his orientation. What advice would you give to him? <\/strong><\/p>\n First, find at least one person you can tell, and can talk to as regularly as possible. This is the most frustrating thing: someone will write to me, and say, \u201cHelp, I\u2019m miserable!\u201d So I ask if he\u2019s told anyone he\u2019s gay, and he says that nobody can know. But there\u2019s nothing anyone can do unless they open up to one person. Ideally, someone who has a solid orthodox head on their shoulders, plus great empathy and patience. Those people aren\u2019t a dime a dozen! What I always tell people is, if they\u2019re Catholic, start by mentioning it in the confession, and see if the priest is receptive to meeting outside the confessional to talk about it.<\/p>\n I have also been helped by a therapist who saw no problem with gay relationships, but I made it clear that I did, and she respected that. Some people are dishonest, and will try to convince you that it\u2019s really okay. That happened to me: someone said she respected my beliefs, but then she tried to manipulate me into a relationship with a friend of hers.<\/p>\n So, see if you can find a therapist, see if there\u2019s a female friend you can talk to \u2014 because with women, there\u2019s a lot less fear of judgment. It\u2019s easier to tell a woman.\u00a0 But it\u2019s more healing to tell another man, because it helps to deflate this overblown fear of rejection. On the other hand, you do read horrible news stories of guys who did tell other guys, and the things they did to him. So you have to be careful! And, you know, sometimes it helps to send out feelers: see how they talk about homosexuals when it comes up; see if they\u2019re bigoted.<\/p>\n I was thinking about the Church\u2019s teaching on sterilization. Getting sterilized reflects a disordered view about sexuality. But if you do get sterilized and then repent, you are not required to get surgery to repair it, and a married couple is not required to be abstinent. They may do these things, and I\u2019ve known some couples who felt called to have restorative surgery, and are glad they did; but it\u2019s not required.<\/strong><\/p>\n So, do you think God wants everyone to be heterosexual? If you\u2019re gay, are you required to at least try, in one way or another, to become heterosexual?<\/strong><\/p>\n I don\u2019t think the Church would ever require someone to be more heterosexual. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s possible; that phrase doesn\u2019t make any sense.<\/p>\n I was all upset about a year ago because I was in love with this guy who wasn\u2019t it love with me. I was talking to a friend about it, and I was talking about how I just needed to get over it and move on. And she said, \u201cYou know, there are some things that are not a matter of your will. You don\u2019t have the power to stop feeling this way.\u201d No one has the power to be more heterosexual, per se.<\/p>\n I know there is some debate over whether the Church should use words like \u201cdisordered,\u201d because it makes people feel like they are intrinsically second rate. And I know there are some Christians who are not thrilled at the prospect of being celibate for the rest of their lives, but they accept their SSA as part of their identities, maybe like some deaf people refuse to call their lack of hearing a disability. Do you think there\u2019s some comparison there? Is it legitimate to sort of \u201cown\u201d your gayness, even if you\u2019re chaste and celibate, because it makes you who you are?<\/strong><\/p>\n That\u2019s why this is so tricky to talk about the definition of being gay.<\/p>\n Do I want to be no longer attracted to men? Absolutely. Would I like to be attracted to women? Absolutely. But would I like to lose any of the things closely tied to being attracted to men? It\u2019s anybody\u2019s guess what those things are, exactly. You can\u2019t talk about life like that \u2014 what life might have been.<\/p>\n Right, and I know people who are who they are because of something horrible, like the death of a child. They have become strong and close to God because of it, but they can\u2019t quite bring themselves to say they\u2019re glad it happened!<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah. What part of who I am is because of the struggle? The \u2018person you would have been\u2019 doesn\u2019t exist. I\u2019m extremely glad to be who I am. But would I change the things that made me who I am? Of course. And that doesn\u2019t make sense!<\/p>\n See, that\u2019s the whole reason this \u201cgay thing\u201d is such a big deal \u2014 because it brings the paradoxes of human experience right onto the surface and makes them unavoidable. It\u2019s why people can\u2019t stop talking about it. It makes it impossible not to talk about the relationship between sex and procreation, or the difference between love and friendship. It makes these things pressing concerns; it makes them so explicit.<\/p>\n Well, let\u2019s end with a really big question: what does chastity mean to you? Do you see any difference between how you, as a gay man, see it, and how you\u2019ve heard it described by heterosexual people, either sexually active or not? Does it sound like we\u2019re all talking about the same thing?<\/strong><\/p>\n I don\u2019t think I can answer that. I don\u2019t know what chastity is yet. No one I talk to does, either.<\/p>\n \u2014\u2014<\/p>\n [This ends the second half of my interview with Steve Gershom. For the first half, see yesterday\u2019s post. Steve has also written a four-part post about orientation change on his blog, SteveGershom.com.]<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" [This is the second part of my interview with Steve Gershom. I posted the first half yesterday. Gershom has also written a four-part series about orientation change on his own blog, SteveGershom.com.] Have you had any bad experiences with Christian organizations who try to bully or shame you into becoming heterosexual? 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