{"id":3024,"date":"2007-08-17T20:40:00","date_gmt":"2007-08-17T20:40:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view\/"},"modified":"2014-12-24T08:35:36","modified_gmt":"2014-12-24T13:35:36","slug":"points-of-view","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html","title":{"rendered":"Points of View"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>For those who do not have much interest in debates about liturgy, I apologize that this blog has become rather \u2018liturgically obsessed\u2019 of late.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things this debate has made me think about is the futility of argument in these matters. Some of my friends who love the Mass of Blessed John XXIII pull out all their arguments and keep on firing away. They sometimes express frustration that I don\u2019t answer their arguments. At times I am accused of being woefully ignorant on these matters or indifferent.<\/p>\n<p>The real reason I try to avoid liturgical arguments is because I think they\u2019re pretty much a waste of time. This is not to say that liturgy is unimportant. Neither is it to say that my friends\u2019 arguments are empty or just plain wrong. Because I don\u2019t come out slugging away with my own arguments, I sense that they believe me to be more of their opponent than I actually am.<\/p>\n<p>In fact, as I have said numerous times, I\u2019m actually happy about the recent <span style=\"font-style: italic;\">moto proprio.<\/span> I\u2019m glad the Mass of Blessed John XXIII is going to be celebrated more frequently. I hear many of the complaints of those who love the traditional Mass and agree with them. I hear and understand many of their liturgical arguments and agree with them.<\/p>\n<p>Where I part company is when they cease to be positive about the Mass of Blessed John XXIII and start to be negative about the Ordinary Form of Mass. Much of this is down to one of my guiding principles that \u2018a man is most often right in what he affirms and wrong in what he denies.\u2019 I find the same thing holds true in my conversations with Protestants. When they are affirming good things about the Christian faith I am almost always able to affirm those good things with them. When they start denying things that are Catholic, then we part company because I want to affirm those Catholic things too. So, for example, I can affirm with my Protestant friend that we are saved by faith, but when he denies the need for faithful good works as our co-operation with God\u2019 s grace, well then we part ways.<\/p>\n<p>The second reason I try to avoid liturgical disputes is that they usually try to focus on \u2018facts\u2019 and \u2018objective reasons\u2019. However, in this sort of debate it is very rare indeed to find any argument that is purely objective, and the more a disputant claims that the argument is objective, the more I have found (certainly in my own case) that the argument is even more deeply subjective. This is because we argue most strongly for the things we feel most strongly about and when we feel strongly about something it makes the argument subjective\u2013not objective. Then when we try to claim loudly that the argument is \u2018just plain true\u2019 or \u2018simply objective\u2019 it is usually the most subjective, and even more so because we can\u2019t see ourselves the subjectivity of our argument.<\/p>\n<p>Finally, there is the matter of perspective. Very often an argument is loud and long because each disputant really, honestly, sincerely does believe that he has got a handle on the facts that the other fellow has not. Since both disputants believe this to be true, and both cannot agree, then there must be something else going on. The other thing that is \u2018going on\u2019 is that they are not really arguing about facts at all. They are arguing about the interpretation of the facts. Both disputants are actually looking at the same set of facts, but because of their perspective and prior assumptions (and a whole load of other subjective baggage) they interpret the facts in very different ways.<\/p>\n<p>You may remember the old story of the six blind men who were presented with an elephant. One felt his tail and said, \u201cThis is an old leathery piece of rope frayed at one end\u201d A second felt the trunk and said, \u201cIt is a big snake!\u201d The third felt the ear and said, \u201cIt is a large leather blanket\u201d The fourth felt the leg and said, \u201cIt is a tree.\u201d The fifth felt the side of the elephant and said, \u201cIt is a wall.\u201d The sixth felt the tusk and said, \u201ca piece of bone.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>All of them were right. All of them were wrong.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s the same with all these quarrels back and forth about liturgy and religion. I try not to get too involved because we\u2019re not really arguing about facts, we\u2019re arguing about the interpretation of facts.<\/p>\n<p>Allow me to give an example from the present debate. Those who love Latin in the Mass point out quite rightly that Vatican II documents say that Latin should have \u2018pride of place\u2019 in the liturgy. They assume that this means quite clearly that Latin should be used regularly, if not exclusively, and that the Mass of Blessed John XXIII should be the norm. However, what does \u2018pride of place\u2019 mean?<\/p>\n<p>If I have a priceless antique set of family china and crystal I give it pride of place not by using it every day, but by putting it in a beautiful china cabinet. There I can see it and appreciate it, but every day I use the ordinary, nice serviceable stuff from Wal-Mart. On special occasions we get the china and crystal out and set the table for a wonderful celebration, and this too is how we grant it pride of place. One could argue that this is what is meant by giving Latin and Gregorian chant pride of place. It is to be retained, kept in good condition and used for solemn high celebrations within our liturgical life.<\/p>\n<p>One may not agree with this interpretation, but it is just as valid an interpretation of those words as the interpretation which thinks the Latin must be used always and everywhere.<\/p>\n<p>Because we are ultimately arguing about interpretation rather than the text itself and the facts of the case, the results cannot be more than subjective, and the disputants end up disagreeing anyhow, and because their argument are subjective there is really no final and definitive answer. (no matter how much the disputants wish there were) When we do require a final and definitive answer in some interpretive matter we can both look to the Church and accept her ruling. But even then the arguments often continue because people cannot agree on the interpretation of the interpretation!<\/p>\n<p>Therefore, I really do think that such arguments are not only a waste of time, but they are one of the devil\u2019s favorite games. How delighted he must be to see Catholics spending inordinate amounts of time quarrelling over liturgy and calling each other names and getting hot under the collar over rites and rubrics and religion when they ought to be getting on with the joyful and awesome task of following Christ, and sharing his salvation with the world.<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>For those who do not have much interest in debates about liturgy, I apologize that this blog has become rather \u2018liturgically obsessed\u2019 of late. One of the things this debate has made me think about is the futility of argument in these matters. Some of my friends who love the Mass of Blessed John XXIII [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":557,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-3024","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Points of View<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"For those who do not have much interest in debates about liturgy, I apologize that this blog has become rather &#039;liturgically obsessed&#039; of late. One of the\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Points of View\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"For those who do not have much interest in debates about liturgy, I apologize that this blog has become rather &#039;liturgically obsessed&#039; of late. One of the\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Fr. Dwight Longenecker\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2007-08-17T20:40:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2014-12-24T13:35:36+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Fr. Dwight Longenecker\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Fr. Dwight Longenecker\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"6 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html\",\"name\":\"Points of View\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2007-08-17T20:40:00+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2014-12-24T13:35:36+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#\/schema\/person\/9a47bc6ba9c0a8c532dc90230d7ad3ad\"},\"description\":\"For those who do not have much interest in debates about liturgy, I apologize that this blog has become rather 'liturgically obsessed' of late. One of the\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Points of View\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/\",\"name\":\"Fr. Dwight Longenecker\",\"description\":\"\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#\/schema\/person\/9a47bc6ba9c0a8c532dc90230d7ad3ad\",\"name\":\"Fr. Dwight Longenecker\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/8dbbfbf5b6d096630322e90bce3f0cec?s=96&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/8dbbfbf5b6d096630322e90bce3f0cec?s=96&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Fr. Dwight Longenecker\"},\"sameAs\":[\"http:\/\/dwightlongenecker.com\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/author\/frdwight\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Points of View","description":"For those who do not have much interest in debates about liturgy, I apologize that this blog has become rather 'liturgically obsessed' of late. One of the","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Points of View","og_description":"For those who do not have much interest in debates about liturgy, I apologize that this blog has become rather 'liturgically obsessed' of late. One of the","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html","og_site_name":"Fr. Dwight Longenecker","article_published_time":"2007-08-17T20:40:00+00:00","article_modified_time":"2014-12-24T13:35:36+00:00","author":"Fr. Dwight Longenecker","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Fr. Dwight Longenecker","Est. reading time":"6 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html","name":"Points of View","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#website"},"datePublished":"2007-08-17T20:40:00+00:00","dateModified":"2014-12-24T13:35:36+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#\/schema\/person\/9a47bc6ba9c0a8c532dc90230d7ad3ad"},"description":"For those who do not have much interest in debates about liturgy, I apologize that this blog has become rather 'liturgically obsessed' of late. One of the","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/2007\/08\/points-of-view.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Points of View"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/","name":"Fr. Dwight Longenecker","description":"","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#\/schema\/person\/9a47bc6ba9c0a8c532dc90230d7ad3ad","name":"Fr. Dwight Longenecker","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/8dbbfbf5b6d096630322e90bce3f0cec?s=96&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/8dbbfbf5b6d096630322e90bce3f0cec?s=96&r=g","caption":"Fr. Dwight Longenecker"},"sameAs":["http:\/\/dwightlongenecker.com"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/author\/frdwight"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3024","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/557"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3024"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3024\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3024"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3024"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/standingonmyhead\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3024"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}