With a Patheos Public Square about the Future of Paganism in the wings at the end of August, and our ongoing series Why I\u2019m Still a _____<\/em>, this seemed like a good time to discuss the future, and how the Pagan Umbrella is holding up in 2015. If any of this ever feels argumentative while you are reading that\u2019s my fault as an editor. Our conversation was cozy and congenial all the way through. <\/p>\n Jason Mankey<\/a> (Raise the Horns): So I tend to start at the beginning . . . this is for all of you. \u201cHow long have you been a Pagan and what brand of Pagan are you?\u201d You are bloggers so I know \u201cshort and sweet\u201d will be tough for most of you.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees<\/a> (Editor at Agora): 17 years, Technopagan (short enough?)<\/p>\n Dana Corby<\/a> (The Rantin Raven): I\u2019m an old-style Wiccan, initiated in December 73. But I\u2019m also a Bard in the RDNA and Companion\/2nd\u00b0 in the AODA, though not active.<\/p>\n Angus McMahan<\/a> (Ask Angus): 19 years, Celtic Hedgewitch with some Santeria seasoning.<\/p>\n Annika Mongan<\/a> (Born Again Witch): 4th year, Reclaiming Witch<\/p>\n Gwion Raven<\/a> (The Witches Next Door): 12 years primarily Reclaiming (Gwion). (My wife) Phoenix 22 years Primarily Reclaiming<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: 21st year, British Traditional Witch, Gardnerian.<\/p>\n Tom Swiss<\/a> (The Zen Pagan): I count myself a pagan since about 1990, so\u202625 years? How did that happen? Eclectic. I go by \u201cZen Pagan Taoist Atheist Discordian\u201d.<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney<\/a> (Soon to be joining us at Agora): 19 Years, primarily Heathen at this point.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: I suspect many people will drop Pagan over the next twenty years Rua.<\/p>\n Sable Aradia<\/a> (Between the Shadows): 26 years, heretic Brit Trad with a very eclectic background<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow<\/a> (Sermons From the Mound): Been on Patheos since 2012, Gardnerian Wiccan polytheist in UK. Pagan since 1985, Wiccan since 1991.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: Which is the opposite for me. I\u2019m Pagan first and anything else second.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: In all of those years have you noticed any changes in the larger Pagan Community? How is it different from four, ten, fifteen, or twenty years ago?<\/strong><\/p>\n Gwion Raven: Oh my! Secret meet up driven, then book driven, then Internet leading to meetings driven, then internet driven. I\u2019ve also seen a real return to small, private work in the past few years.<\/p>\n Tom Swiss: 20+ years ago we didn\u2019t have the web. Some of us techies had BBSes and USENET and all, but our Pagan communities were more isolated. (Which is not necessarily an entirely bad thing, as I think perhaps it gave us more diversity and \u201cfigure it out yourself\u201d.)<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: I think coming into Paganism with the Internet means that, for me, it\u2019s always been a part of things. It\u2019s part of why I call myself a Techno-pagan because the influence of modern technology on my spiritual self is undeniable. The biggest change is, I think, not really a change. In the beginning, I thought it was all Wicca all the time. It\u2019s all I had access to. I thought people who worked with other gods were just doing Wicca differently. The Internet helped me to more fully understand reality and my own misunderstandings.<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: A change from a smaller community with a focus on Wiccan-style working groups (covens and circles) to a broader recognition of non-Wiccan traditions and a greater focus on come-as-you-are meet-ups and groups. Also a lot of increased specialization and hiving.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: Twenty years ago: Paganism was often shorthand for eclectic Wicca, with some consideration given to Heathens and Druids, but those folks often felt like exotic outsiders from far away places. Public arguments were generally relegated to well thought out letters in pages of \u201cThe Green Egg.\u201d Bookstores were a social network, as were psychic fairs. \u201cWicca\u201d was the \u201cin\u201d thing.<\/p>\n Rua Lupa: Haven\u2019t had the amount of time other have had to determine any major shifts. What I have noticed is that most initially introduce themselves by their particular practice and use \u2018Pagan\u2019 as a more vague larger descriptor for gatherings of people who share different practices but feel that they have enough in common to gather around that name. What that commonality is is something I am uncertain about.<\/p>\n Dana Corby: My Gods, how it\u2019s changed! When I started out it was almost entirely word of mouth, though the media were beginning to discover us. Hans Holzer & Susan Roberts has books out, and the Witches\u2019 Almanac has just put out it\u2019s 2nd issue. It was actually the Almanac that put a name to what I felt I was, and confirmed I wasn\u2019t the only one there was.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: Biggest change is arrival of the Internet<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: Twelve years ago: Everything moved online, at least that\u2019s how we met other Pagans. We argued over E-mail lists and WitchVox was the big eye in the sky. Now: Many blogs drive online commenting at least, arguments happen in real time, and get real personal, real fast. Our differences are much more noticeable these days and many of us (but certainly nothing close to all) spend more time in our individual camps.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: The key is \u201cmore noticeable\u201d in your comment, Jason. I think these differences always existed but we\u2019ve begun to look more closely at them to try and identify ourselves more accurately and, unfortunately, we\u2019ve begun to see a strength in unity rather than a strength in plurality, it seems.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: They did always exist, I agree completely Dash.<\/p>\n Tom Swiss: Perhaps because we were more isolated in those days, when we found anyone even close we were eager to connect; now we have more opportunities to connect and so perhaps only want to connect with those more like us. (Thus more arguing betweem e.g., \u201chard Polytheists\u201d and \u201chumanistic Pagans\u201d, a feeling that each doesn\u2019t need the other as much, maybe.)<\/p>\n Sable Aradia: Not long after that (mid 90s I guess) the Re-constructionist movement got going in the communities I hang with. Now everyone wanted historical documentation for everything & everyone thought they were in the SCA. Witchvox was the best place to connect with other Pagans and huge flame wars rocked the Yahoogroups. Then my craft became more community-focused for many years. I immersed myself in the (largely Wiccan of various stripes) community of Vancouver and the Okanagan Valley. Druidry was big for a while around here I remember.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: And, with those opportunities to connect, we also encounter those who think differently than us more regularly.<\/p>\n Annika Mongan: The internet allowed me learn about Paganism. I had met plenty of Pagans through the SCA, Ren-Faires, etc. but it wasn\u2019t until I was able to research Paganism secretly online that it became an option for me.<\/p>\n Sable Aradia: When Hutton\u2019s book came out, everything changed. The Wicca and anti-Wicca camps started to divide. I got taken to task by a list moderator for demanding that a vocally anti-Wiccan Heathen stop telling me that his religion was superior to Wicca and instead starting explaining what his religion actually *was*.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: \u201cTriumph\u201d was a water-shed moment. It made Pagan Studies a legitimate field of study.<\/p>\n Sable Aradia: Now everybody\u2019s a shaman or a traditional witch. And I spend more time on the internet than I did before (mainly it\u2019s this job).<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: The speciation of differences is more marked nowadays, certainly. It parallels the development of distinct identities within the LGBT community, for a lot of similar reasons. \u201cYou\u2019re all the same.\u201d became, \u201cWell, actually\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n Annika Mongan: \u201cTriumph\u201d is actually what sealed the deal for me. A religion that was able to survive and continue to thrive with that level of introspection and re-writing of its own history? Yes, please!<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: \u201cTriumph\u201d made me a more committed Witch. I actually liked the Gardner in that book, I liked a Witchcraft that was a continuation of the Western Magical Tradition as inspired by 19th Century Romantic and Victorian poets.<\/p>\n Sable Aradia: I felt exactly as you do about \u201cTriumph.\u201d I love that we can see the bullshit in Wicca\u2019s founding legends but know it works and love it anyway. I wish that some other faiths could be as rational about their histories; maybe then we can have more meaningful discussions.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: Speaking of the internet . . . has it been good or bad? A lot of both?<\/strong><\/p>\n Gwion Raven: Oh, of course it\u2019s good.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: Keep in mind my own biases (I\u2019m writing computer software on my other three monitors) but the Internet is a net good with bad tossed in as a balance.<\/p>\n Annika Mongan: Personally I\u2019m incredibly thankful for it. I don\u2019t think I would have had the courage to seek out Witches in person without having a chance to interact online first.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: For me, it\u2019s been largely amazing. With a dash of awful, at times.<\/p>\n Gwion Raven: Well, I should say (from my Buddhist<\/a> days) that the internet is Empty. It\u2019s an equal opportunity lover and hater. But it does make Witchcraft more accessible to the kid in Iowa that needs it.<\/p>\n Annika Mongan: Or that lost Christian girl sneaking around on the internet in the middle of the night in Germany.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: Absolutely. I never would have found my local community without the internet.<\/p>\n Tom Swiss: I remember in the 90s, in grad school, thinking how cool it would be if everyone had e-mail. That was before spam. It brings its problems as any tool or technology does, but overall a plus.<\/p>\n Rua Lupa: I may be still Christian if it weren\u2019t for the internet. So I\u2019d say its done a lot of good!<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: I think it makes our disagreements bigger, is bad for the blood pressure, and can be an endless source of headaches. Of course most of you have probably don\u2019t get publicly lambasted online (well Sable probably does). I love that it has connected me to more people. I love that it has made information more accessible.<\/p>\n Gwion Raven: And having said that, raising power, feeling the temperature of the room change, hearing 100 witches singing in unison\u2026that cannot be done on the internet\u2019<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: Gwion \u2013 but I\u2019ve also never had that sort of experience IRL, either. For me, my community is online.<\/p>\n Sable Aradia: But as a Wiccan, I see that there is a strong sense that it\u2019s all either \u201chierarchy and personality cults\u201d or \u201clight anything-goes spirituality\u201d and that\u2019s why I\u2019ve been working hard to encourage serious theological discussion as of late. This is true of Paganism in general I think. I really do see us (serious Pagans\/Polytheists\/etc. of this time) as being in the position of the early Christian church fathers. You can\u2019t help but start codifying things a little in the development of a faith. I think it\u2019s important that we be cautious about what we say and how we say it because it all could have amazingly vast repercussions. I doubt that Augustine had any idea that his writings about the doctrine of Original Sin would produce centuries of systematic oppression.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: I\u2019ve had some yuck thrown my way recently. I still love the internet.<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: Gwion, true, but having the validation of similar experiences from a worldwide ritual initiated and coordinated online has its benefits, too. (From my Fellowship of Isis days)<\/p>\n Sable Aradia: In general I think the internet was the single most important things to develop modern Paganism, and I love it, despite its problems.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: Public perceptions of Wicca don\u2019t always match up with the reality. To many, we will always be fluffy bunny \u201carchetypalists\u201d or other such thing. And yes, there\u2019s real power when 100 Witches sing together or 13 Witches raise a cone of power.<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: I think that\u2019s a result of the popularization of Wicca, Jason, as well as the emphasis that I\u2019ve seen lately of it being an \u201cAnything goes\u201d kind of faith.<\/p>\n Rua Lupa: I agree with Sable, the internet helps facilitate discussions on important issues that impact the future. I really liked the discussions on LGBT rights in rituals that are gendered oriented, the information shared and gathered on making sure you are participating in a safe group versus an abusive group, and especially tackling sexual abuse in the community. Things that are able to reach and improve the lives of far more people than before\u2026<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: In some ways it feels like it\u2019s losing definition among those who aren\u2019t tied to the traditional coven structure, something that I believe was an initial concern with Buckland\u2019s self-initiation.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: And Cunningham\u2019s Solitary Guide<\/em>. Formative, necessary, important \u2026 but disruptive.<\/p>\n Angus McMahan: I don\u2019t care so much about what \u201cthey\u201d think about us. But I adore that I get shy, awkward emails and texts from newbie solitaries in red states, who have no one to turn to, talk to, or guide them along.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: aww \u2026 that\u2019s awesome, Angus<\/p>\n Annika Mongan: Angus \u2013 yes! I get so many emails from apostate Christians and I tear up just about every time. I tried to reach out for people when I was leaving fundamentalism and approaching Paganism, but couldn\u2019t find anyone who had walked that path before. I love the internet for giving me the opportunity to be the support I wish I had had to those who are just starting that journey.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: Wicca gets a lot of hate in Heathen circles. When people are complaining about my path of Heathenry, they often resort to calling me a Wiccan. Which is at once hilarious and hurtful for actual Wiccans.<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: Yup, Molly, the fact that respected folks like the founders of the Troth can be dismissed as Wiccatru<\/em> is insulting to serious Wiccans and Heathens alike.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: Wicca gets a lot of hate from every direction from the most strident of folks. I would love to know how many of them were, at one time, some form of Wiccan. I suspect that, for some, theirs is the fervor of the converted (so to speak).<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: I really dislike the whole anti-Wicca thing because it is directed at pop-Wicca for the most part. Which is not the original form of Wicca.<\/p>\n Gwion Raven: I really, really dislike folks of tradition X bashing folks of Tradition Y. I think that hurts all of us.<\/p>\n Tom Swiss: Free Spirit Gathering and Starwood are a big part of my Pagan experience. I think of all my Blue Star Wicca peeps sharing the horn of mead with my Heathen peeps at FSG and wonder at people talking about Heathen* vs. Wiccan beef. Laine DeLaney: Yvonne, I saw that. Even when I was Wiccan, I was a polytheist, I don\u2019t understand that.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: Yes it is crazy. That is why I constantly assert that you can have any theology you want. Even monotheism. lol<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: Sometimes there\u2019s a tendency to define various strands of Paganism by what they aren\u2019t rather than what they are. \u201cYou can\u2019t be a polytheist\u201d for example.<\/p>\n Angus McMahan: Bingo.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: I think a lot of the duotheism, though, stems from the Lord and Lady speak that is common throughout a lot of the books we all probably read in the 90\u2019s. It was hard, for me, to ever call myself a Wiccan because of that language. It wasn\u2019t until years later that I actually was able to understand the complexities instead of the black\/white nature of things.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: Dash, I totally understand. This was my understanding of Wicca until I actually talked to real Wiccans in person.<\/p>\n Sable Aradia: Guys, there will always be bullies and abusers in a community, unless the members of the community stand up for the ones being abused. If we allow anyone in our midst to insult anyone else\u2019s faith as \u201cstupid\u201d or \u201clesser,\u201d then those abusers will continue to grow in power because they will have learned that this is an effective way to get shit done. We have to mind our own language and we have to call out other people who do that shit, whether we are part of the group they\u2019re insulting, or even like that group, or not, or it will just grow.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: Sable \u2013 100%. This is such a huge problem in the Heathen community, honestly it breaks my heart.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: Many polytheist Wiccans see the Lord and Lady as the patron deities of the Craft<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: I\u2019ve always felt that an intelligent person who explores spirituality will come to different conclusions about theism and the lack thereof over their life. Sometimes that can even change day to day. That\u2019s why I like the new emphasis of practice over belief. Beliefs change.<\/p>\n Gwion Raven: And there you have it \u2013 Talking to people in person. Most of the dust ups on the internet are between people that have never broken bread with each other. When it\u2019s a real person sitting across from you, it\u2019s a little tougher to call them names!<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: True, Gwion, but it\u2019s also hard to formulate thought in a structured way. I love this sort of conversation because I\u2019m forced to read and re-read my statements (though perhaps not everyone does that) in order to be sure that what I type is what I actually mean to say. In a face-to-face conversation, everything just gets blurted out and I find myself having much more difficulty both understanding others and transmitting my thoughts\/feelings.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: Me too. One of the things i find difficult about the emerging polytheist movement is the emphasis on belief.<\/p>\n Sable Aradia: If you live long enough your enemies will float down the river. I just keep doing my thing. Some like it, some don\u2019t. I don\u2019t much care; you can\u2019t please everybody. I\u2019m open to constructive criticism but oppositional hatred for its own sake is never constructive. When someone starts with \u201cyour beliefs are stupid\u201d or \u201cI know your beliefs better than you do\u201d the conversation is over. They already know everything; don\u2019t confuse them with the facts. So why waste your time? Eventually when they learn that dealing with you is inevitable, they learn to be polite or they go away.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: With the rancor that pops up in our extended community from time to time is the Pagan Umbrella doomed?<\/strong><\/p>\n Sable Aradia: I worked as a dispatcher for a taxi company. Daily I was called a bitch on the phone. When I started riding around in my hubby\u2019s cab and meeting the people face-to-face who called me a bitch, they stopped.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: Yes, but everything is eventually doomed (one again, I repeat, hail, Eris)<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: The rancor and conflict are a sign of healthy interest between people with sincerely held ideals. I can\u2019t see the Pagan Umbrella as doomed when that\u2019s still going on.<\/p>\n Rua Lupa: There is a mixed problem \u2013 there is actually name calling and unproductive word tossing, and there is actually criticisms that can be done constructively. I often get the impression that people tend to see them as one and the same. And so what ends up happening is that there is enforcement against any criticism and everyone just pats each other on the back \u2013 just smile and nod and everything will be okay. I think there needs to be a proper balance. Zero tolerance of hate speech, and acceptance of proper debate on issues. Otherwise you\u2019re prone to Fluffy Bunny Syndrome.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: Skins seem more thin online.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: That\u2019s likely the way it\u2019ll work out, I think as well. And, those rancorous people will likely have a grand old time doing what they do and doing it well. But, what I fear will happen is that we\u2019ll lose the middle. If we go with John Becket\u2019s tent-pole metaphor, we\u2019ll find some many people around the poles (community, deity, self, and nature) that there won\u2019t be as much room for or conversations about those who (like me) hang out in between those poles.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: Dash, I worry about that too. I see it much like politics \u2013 over time, everything seems to be getting more polarized.<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: Dash, yes, but I also think that people need different things at different points in their life. I am seeing that happen within Heathenry, though \u2013 you have SCA level re-constructionists for whom spiritual practice is an afterthought, and then you have screwheads like myself who think the Gods care less about wearing the right underwear or oppressing the right people than having good relationships.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: I certainly don\u2019t think the Umbrella is going away, at least not anytime soon. There are enough people actually out there (as opposed to online) who still identify as Pagan as well as their specific path that it will be around for a long while.<\/p>\n Laine Glaistig: What happens when they don\u2019t, though, Tom? The internet means that a lot of time they will find a way to stick around and be a voice.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: There are people most of us would consider \u201cunder the umbrella\u201d who actively bristle at the word \u201cPagan.\u201d<\/p>\n Molly Khan: Jason, that\u2019s very true. But I think they are a much greater minority than their voices seem.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: The umbrella is a big tent, but it is not in decline. The fact that there is heated discussion is a good thing<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: Jason \u2013 and there are those that many of us would consider male who may bristle at that term (not an attack, just spinning the phrases). It\u2019s up to us to inquire and learn rather than assume.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: Those who try to define their community too narrowly will find themselves big fish in a tiny tiny pond. Communities\/ coalitions of common interest don\u2019t have to agree on everything \u2013 only on the topics they are collaborating on.<\/p>\n Gwion Raven: Using the tent metaphor \u2013 The idea being that lots of people can fit under it. If you invite many people you get diversity (a plus) and you get differences (also a plus). It\u2019s how those differences are discussed, held and worked with that determines how successful your tent is. I think having many people in the tent that then go out and get their own tents is a good thing in general.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: Gwion +1 \u2013 and, it\u2019s also helpful when people with tents are willing to accept that people move between them, visiting one or another for a bit, before returning elsewhere without labeling them Wiccatru or something.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: I think one can wander around the tent having beer anywhere.<\/p>\n Jason Mankey: I for one love the umbrella, I love being able to experience new facets of spirituality and to have new experiences. The great thing about big festivals is being exposed to all sorts of different things. I don\u2019t want that to go away. I will add though that sometimes when the internet is especially cantankerous I like to hide under my nice warm Wiccan blanket. (It\u2019s got a picture of Gerald on it.)<\/p>\n Molly Khan: Jason, it\u2019s funny, my experience is opposite yours! I love the umbrella, and I enjoy the Heathen community from time to time; but when the Heathen community gets to be too awful, I run back to the larger Pagan umbrella.<\/p>\n Laine DeLaney: I like the umbrella too. Not only does it keep me dry and keep the sun off, it means that I can find all sorts of fascinating things to pursue and incorporate in my personal practice.<\/p>\n Annika Mongan: I really love the umbrella. Even with all of the fighting, just think about what Christians have done and continue to do under their umbrella. As long as we stick to online flame wars, we\u2019re in great shape by comparison!<\/p>\n Annika Mongan: I keep coming back to James Fowler\u2019s model of stages of faith development. As we get older as a movement, we will have people who grow up in our traditions and their needs are different. At earlier stages in our faith development we need more certainty, and belief can feel more important than practice. How do we make space for those who need a paradigm with a lot of certainly and literal belief?<\/p>\n Dana Corby: One of the frustrations I\u2019ve experienced in trying to create and manage a \u2018pagan umbrella\u2019 organization was getting all sorts of flak because all the events are Wiccan or Wicca-ish, but being unable to get anyone but the Wiccans to come share their ritual style with us.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: I\u2019ve experienced that as well when organizing for Pagan Pride Day in Massachusetts.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: I was pleased to see that the Pagan Federation conference, London, UK, had a Heathen opening ritual.<\/p>\n Molly Khan: Dana, that\u2019s hard frown emoticon. Our local PPD has been able to get a Heathen ritual and a Kemetic workshop this year (and a Thelemic presenter!) which I\u2019m super excited about. That success has largely come from building relationships throughout the year, and then approaching individuals about maybe doing a workshop or ritual.<\/p>\n Tom Swiss: At FreeSpirit Gathering, we specifically invite a different group each year to do our main ritual. It\u2019s a mixed bag but it get us diversity and has made for some excellent ones \u2014 one year was a flaming staff battle between the Oak King and the Holly King\u2026another was a ritual based around Where The Wild Things Are.<\/p>\n Yvonne Aburrow: In the UK, Heathens and Druids and Wiccans have their own camps, plus there are general Pagan camps \u2013 benefit of density of population.<\/p>\n Tom Swiss: Rancorous people will still have a voice, sure, but I\u2019m thinking they will leave those on-line and real-life spaces of \u201cthe umbrella\u201d and be speaking from outside.<\/p>\n David Dashifen Kees: I wonder, if Tom\u2019s right, and the cantankerous skedaddle elsewhere, does the Pagan label become more generally applicable?<\/p>\n![John Constable-\"Stonehenge\" from WikiMedia.](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/110\/2015\/08\/John_Constable_Stonehenge.jpg\")
<\/a>![\"Rua](\"https:\/\/wp-media.patheos.com\/blogs\/sites\/110\/2015\/08\/RuaLupaprofilepic-207x300.jpg\")
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