{"id":307,"date":"2010-11-05T15:02:00","date_gmt":"2010-11-05T15:02:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1\/"},"modified":"2012-09-01T12:34:03","modified_gmt":"2012-09-01T16:34:03","slug":"my-problem-with-loftus-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html","title":{"rendered":"My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p>I\u2019ve been engaged in <a href=\"http:\/\/www.unequally-yoked.com\/2010\/11\/why-do-atheists-ask-boring-questions.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">a back and forth<\/a> with <a href=\"http:\/\/debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">John Loftus<\/a> over his proposed questions for a Christian interlocutor, and I think we\u2019ve both ended up a little frustrated. Therefore, I want to take a moment to explain in more detail why I disagree with Loftus\u2019s methods and questions, and why I\u2019m not inclined to just let them lie as a difference of opinions.<\/p>\n<p>I still think Loftus\u2019s choice to focus his questions on nitpicks for biblical literalists is problematic, and complaint isn\u2019t resolved by the fact that the person he\u2019s debating may be a biblical literalist. \u00a0But before I explain why, I\u2019ll let John explain, <a href=\"http:\/\/debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com\/2007\/11\/why-my-focus-is-on-debunking.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">in his own words<\/a>, why he\u00a0focuses his debunking on American Evangelicals:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>I can, and I do argue against mainline and even Catholic Christianity. <a href=\"http:\/\/debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com\/2007\/11\/metacrocks-liberal-atonement-theory.html#c8231380131350331713\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">It\u2019s just not my focus<\/a>. My focus is on fundamentalism because the majority of Christians believe the \u201cliteral\u201d passages in the Bible, and because they have a zeal for pressing their views upon me through economic and political power. Liberals are not that much of a threat, period. They do not blindly accept what they read in the Bible, and that\u2019s being more reasonable than fundamentalists, who have a Bible verse for every problem, intellectual or social. I can agree with liberals on this, so why bother with them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>My goal is to dislodge the evangelical Christian off of center<\/strong>. That\u2019s the hard part. That\u2019s the challenging part. I like a big challenge. Once they are knocked off center they will be less cocksure and less of a threat to my personal liberties. They will begin to think for themselves without blindly accepting what they read in the Bible.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>I disagree with John on a couple points here. First, as an atheist and as a liberal, I don\u2019t feel threatened solely by evangelicals; plenty of other denominations push for policy positions I disagree with, even if I am more frequently in agreement with them than evangelicals. Even more importantly, as a scientist and a skeptic, I am threatened by <em>most <\/em>religious traditions. Rational discourse is endangered when people accept flawed heuristics, whether the particular claim is \u2018God did it\u2019 or \u2018some children were diagnosed with autism after vaccination, therefore parents should opt out.\u2019 Taking any of these seriously when they lack evidence hurts discourse.<\/p>\n<p>And that brings me to the heart of my problem with John\u2019s approach. Although he has helped evangelicals leave the faith, and I\u2019m glad for that, I don\u2019t think his approach does much to promote rationality and reasoned discourse. By focusing exclusively on the intellectually weakest opponents, Loftus need not offer a truly compelling case for atheism, only a dichotomy between atheism and a particularly weak, albeit destructive, vision of Christianity paired with some simple defeaters for a wrongheaded faith.<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s put this a different way: many viewers of Fox News hold views that are unambiguously false and patently absurd. And, especially after Tuesday, it\u2019s beyond question that, in a democracy, these misguided views pose a danger to our side and our values. If my goal is only to deal with the danger of their votes, it doesn\u2019t matter how I try to decrease turnout, whether by pointing out factual inaccuracies or by engaging in actual voter suppression by paying them not to vote.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m still achieving my base objective, and if I\u2019m correct that mine is the side of truth, I am helping my opponents by preventing them from voting for policies and politicians that would hurt them and everyone else. But, in either case, I am not giving them the chance to improve themselves. I am shunting them over to my side by discrediting my opponents, without encouraging people to consider all the evidence, even though I <em>do<\/em> believe it\u2019s in my favor. I\u2019m not strengthening my opponent\u2019s ability to reason rationally, merely engineering a betrayal so they\u2019ll turn their loyalty to me instead.<\/p>\n<p>This is a valid short-term maneuver, but it does demonstrate complete contempt for the other side in a way I believe to be unproductive for Christians and atheists. By not addressing stronger opponents, even if they are less politically dangerous, Loftus does atheism a disservice, especially given his prominence in the skeptical community.<\/p>\n<p><em>About which, more in <a href=\"http:\/\/www.unequally-yoked.com\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-2.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">part 2<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n<div class=\"blogger-post-footer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/tracker\/4256452356987023523-5912345410522693866?l=www.unequally-yoked.com\" alt=\"\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\"><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I\u2019ve been engaged in a back and forth with John Loftus over his proposed questions for a Christian interlocutor, and I think we\u2019ve both ended up a little frustrated. Therefore, I want to take a moment to explain in more detail why I disagree with Loftus\u2019s methods and questions, and why I\u2019m not inclined to [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":127,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[6,5],"tags":[211],"class_list":["post-307","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-atheism","category-debatetactics","tag-loftus"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I&#039;ve been engaged in a back and forth with John Loftus over his proposed questions for a Christian interlocutor, and I think we\u2019ve both ended up a little\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"I&#039;ve been engaged in a back and forth with John Loftus over his proposed questions for a Christian interlocutor, and I think we\u2019ve both ended up a little\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Unequally Yoked\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2010-11-05T15:02:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2012-09-01T16:34:03+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/tracker\/4256452356987023523-5912345410522693866?l=www.unequally-yoked.com\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Leah Libresco\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Leah Libresco\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"4 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html\",\"name\":\"My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2010-11-05T15:02:00+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2012-09-01T16:34:03+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#\/schema\/person\/17ee17592b35b40040d5f5f7ea5ab464\"},\"description\":\"I've been engaged in a back and forth with John Loftus over his proposed questions for a Christian interlocutor, and I think we\u2019ve both ended up a little\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/\",\"name\":\"Unequally Yoked\",\"description\":\"\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#\/schema\/person\/17ee17592b35b40040d5f5f7ea5ab464\",\"name\":\"Leah Libresco\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/20e1e6a3a94c4e7928687804a41d888d?s=96&d=mm&r=r\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/20e1e6a3a94c4e7928687804a41d888d?s=96&d=mm&r=r\",\"caption\":\"Leah Libresco\"},\"description\":\"Leah is the author of Arriving at Amen and Building the Benedict Option. Her further writing can be found at leahlibresco.com.\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/author\/leahlibresco\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)","description":"I've been engaged in a back and forth with John Loftus over his proposed questions for a Christian interlocutor, and I think we\u2019ve both ended up a little","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)","og_description":"I've been engaged in a back and forth with John Loftus over his proposed questions for a Christian interlocutor, and I think we\u2019ve both ended up a little","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html","og_site_name":"Unequally Yoked","article_published_time":"2010-11-05T15:02:00+00:00","article_modified_time":"2012-09-01T16:34:03+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/tracker\/4256452356987023523-5912345410522693866?l=www.unequally-yoked.com"}],"author":"Leah Libresco","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Leah Libresco","Est. reading time":"4 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html","name":"My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#website"},"datePublished":"2010-11-05T15:02:00+00:00","dateModified":"2012-09-01T16:34:03+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#\/schema\/person\/17ee17592b35b40040d5f5f7ea5ab464"},"description":"I've been engaged in a back and forth with John Loftus over his proposed questions for a Christian interlocutor, and I think we\u2019ve both ended up a little","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/11\/my-problem-with-loftus-part-1.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"My Problem with Loftus (Part 1)"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/","name":"Unequally Yoked","description":"","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#\/schema\/person\/17ee17592b35b40040d5f5f7ea5ab464","name":"Leah Libresco","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/20e1e6a3a94c4e7928687804a41d888d?s=96&d=mm&r=r","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/20e1e6a3a94c4e7928687804a41d888d?s=96&d=mm&r=r","caption":"Leah Libresco"},"description":"Leah is the author of Arriving at Amen and Building the Benedict Option. Her further writing can be found at leahlibresco.com.","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/author\/leahlibresco"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/307","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/127"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=307"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/307\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=307"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=307"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=307"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}