{"id":4540,"date":"2012-09-01T17:25:06","date_gmt":"2012-09-01T21:25:06","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/?p=4540"},"modified":"2012-09-01T17:25:06","modified_gmt":"2012-09-01T21:25:06","slug":"getting-tested-on-a-quasi-catechism","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2012\/09\/getting-tested-on-a-quasi-catechism.html","title":{"rendered":"Getting Tested on a Quasi-Catechism"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter\" title=\"The emperor's club\" src=\"https:\/\/www.grouchoreviews.com\/content\/films\/584\/1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"485\" height=\"325\"><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m skipping around <a href=\"http:\/\/freethoughtblogs.com\/wwjtd\/2012\/06\/25\/leah-said-yes\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">in JT\u2019s questions<\/a>, so, today, let\u2019s take a look at #2:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>What parts of Catholicism do you now accept? Which do you reject?<\/p>\n<p>Specifically\u2026<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Did Jesus rise from the dead?<\/li>\n<li>Do you believe in heaven and hell? If so\u2026<\/li>\n<li>What are the criteria for entry into heaven? Into hell?<\/li>\n<li>Were you to find out today that disobeying the ten commandments meant entry to heaven and abiding by them landed you in hell, would your behavior change? If so, how?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Any others you feel are particularly relevant would be awesome to read.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Let me take the last one first. My friend Squelchtoad <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2012\/04\/an-objective-immoral-moral-law.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">posed a dichotomy to me as follows<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Suppose I could demonstrate to you beyond all possible doubt that one of the following two propositions was necessarily true:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>There does not exist a supreme being.<\/li>\n<li>There exists a supreme being (In the sense of an eternal, omnipotent, and omniscient creator of the universe) who commands that people rape one another, abandon any children they bear, and cause as much senseless pain as possible to humans and other animals<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>Would you\u2014could you\u2014hope that (2) was the case instead of (1)? Are you prepared to hope for an \u201cobjective\u201d Moral Law if that law will be deeply contrary to your current (ungrounded) moral beliefs, or do you simply want those beliefs validated?<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>It\u2019s not quite the same question as JT\u2019s, but, from my point of view, it\u2019s higher stakes. \u00a0I care more about right action than I do about reaping any benefits for taking right action. \u00a0So he (and all y\u2019all) can pose follow-up questions to me here <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2012\/04\/immoral-moral-law-unnatural-nature.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">once you see the answer I gave Squelchtoad<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Did Jesus rise from the dead?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yes, but this something I think is likely\u00a0<em>because<\/em> I think\u00a0Christianity is true, not something I was convinced of first that then upped the posterior odds that Catholicism was true, so I don\u2019t have much interesting to say on this. \u00a0Back in the pre-conversion archives, I wrote a post <a href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/unequallyyoked\/2010\/09\/why-i-dont-believe-a-history-mystery.html\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\">explaining why I found the historical debate unproductive<\/a> and unlikely to be convincing even if it were true.<\/p>\n<p>Some Catholic claims are out of the realm of empiricism: there\u2019s no test you can do to distinguish between a consecrated and unconsecrated wafer, so no one could ever be convinced of transubstantiation by physical\u00a0evidence. \u00a0You end up believing it because you believe something\u00a0<em>else<\/em> that either seems trustworthy enough as a truth-telling thing that you take their word for it or because you are convinced of the truth of some proposition from which transubstantiation logically follows or is highly likely to be followed.<\/p>\n<p>The resurrection of Christ isn\u2019t in quite the same category; the claim does have physical consequences, but I\u2019m so far removed from them that they\u2019re very difficult to check. \u00a0 It\u2019s easier to figure out ways that the claim could be falsified (no references to a resurrected Christ before, say, 4oo AD should be enough to make anyone doubt), but, absent those data, it\u2019s a massively unlikely event that depends on the kind of evidence that tips the balance on transubstantiation.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Do you believe in heaven and hell? \u00a0What are the criteria for entry?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, but these are pretty fuzzy beliefs. \u00a0Dante\u2019s\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1604442077\/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1604442077&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=unequyoked-20\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><em>Divine Comedy<\/em><\/a> isn\u2019t canon any more that Lewis\u2019s\u00a0<em><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0061774197\/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0061774197&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=unequyoked-20\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">The Great Divorce<\/a>\u00a0<\/em>is. \u00a0And a lot of the source material is similarly allegorical. \u00a0So I don\u2019t think any conception of the afterlife that gets down to the harp-and-halos level of granularity is very likely to be accurate.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t care that much about what they\u2019re <em>like<\/em>, not when the task of living a good life is already enough work to be going on with. \u00a0I don\u2019t find it very helpful to thing about Heaven and Hell in goal-language (\u201cWhat do I have to do to get in?\u201d) since that triggers my sneaky, gaming the system ways of thinking. \u00a0I find it more useful coherent to use consequence-language (\u201cIn what ways do I fall short of being in heaven\/sharing in the beatific vision\/being Christ-like and how can I progress toward that\u00a0fulfillment?\u201d).<\/p>\n<p>The Catholic church doesn\u2019t claim to be the only channel of God\u2019s grace, but it\u2019s the only one we\u2019re confident in. \u00a0So, analogously, if you had a headache, I wouldn\u2019t be sure that rubbing your temples or standing on your head\u00a0<em>wouldn\u2019t\u00a0<\/em>work, but I\u2019d tell you I was only\u00a0<em><\/em><em>\u00a0confident<\/em>\u00a0in Advil, and that\u2019s what I recommended you take.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u00a0 I\u2019m skipping around in JT\u2019s questions, so, today, let\u2019s take a look at #2: What parts of Catholicism do you now accept? Which do you reject? Specifically\u2026 Did Jesus rise from the dead? Do you believe in heaven and hell? If so\u2026 What are the criteria for entry into heaven? Into hell? Were you [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":127,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[7,176],"tags":[124,192],"class_list":["post-4540","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-apologetics","category-conversion-2","tag-afterlife","tag-reply-to-jt-eberhard"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Getting Tested on a Quasi-Catechism<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"&nbsp; I&#039;m skipping around in JT&#039;s questions, so, today, let&#039;s take a look at #2: What parts of Catholicism do you now accept? 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