{"id":132,"date":"2010-09-22T14:16:00","date_gmt":"2010-09-22T14:16:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests\/"},"modified":"2010-09-22T14:16:00","modified_gmt":"2010-09-22T14:16:00","slug":"monastic-practice-for-zen-priests","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html","title":{"rendered":"Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><a href=\"https:\/\/4.bp.blogspot.com\/_0uPSljNE9f4\/TJlMnHGEpRI\/AAAAAAAAA-0\/DrAjeZQQQ-s\/s1600\/101_1594.JPG\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" border=\"0\" height=\"300\" src=\"https:\/\/4.bp.blogspot.com\/_0uPSljNE9f4\/TJlMnHGEpRI\/AAAAAAAAA-0\/DrAjeZQQQ-s\/s400\/101_1594.JPG\" width=\"400\"><\/a><\/div>\n<p><\/p>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">You might be surprised to learn that many Zen priests in West haven\u2019t done monastic practice and that a number haven\u2019t done a seven-day sesshin.\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">Some people with <a href='https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/library\/buddhism' target='_blank'>dharma<\/a> transmission have done hundreds of sesshin and years of monastic practice. Others have worked through hundreds of koans and\/or studied the <i>Shobogenzo<\/i> exhaustively. Some have not. <\/span><span style=\"font-size: large\">Dharma transmission is completely up to a teacher who has received dharma transmission so the range of training among those with dharma transmission varies widely, with some relationship to lineage customs.\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">In addition, some lineages regard an awakening experience as important and others don\u2019t.\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\"><br><\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">Zen consumer of dharma beware! and don\u2019t assume anything about a Zen teacher. Ask lots of questions about the person\u2019s training and experience.\u00a0<\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\"><br><\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">Imv, thorough training is a necessary but insufficient condition for teaching. Personality variables are also important. Not everyone with thorough training is going to be the right type to teach or to be a minister.<\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">The Soto Zen <a href='https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/library\/buddhism' target='_blank'>Buddhist<\/a> Association (SBZA) board recently proposed to the membership to consider adding a requirment for full membership of six months of ango (literally, \u201cpeaceful dwelling,\u201d i.e., monastic practice). It seems that the majority of the responses on the listserve have been against this.<\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">James Ford and Kyogen Carlson have posted a discussion on this topic at <a href=\"http:\/\/monkeymindonline.blogspot.com\/\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\">Monkey Mind<\/a>. I read through the venerables\u2019 blog posts and want to thank James  and Kyogen for the intelligent and respectful conversation.\u00a0 \n<p>Here I\u2019d like to add my &lt;2 cents with a roughly edited version of what I posted on the SBZA listserve.<\/p><\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">First, imv, ango is about awakening and  investigating \u201cdharma\u201d in the sense of \u201cthe way to live an awakened life.\u201d  Obviously, adaption is needed now to the global culture but one  essential element is giving oneself over to it and not doing it on one\u2019s  own terms. And even in the modern world, some long period of time set  aside for this seems incredibly important \u2013 it has been for me. A few 10-day retreats (one of the alternate proposals) could in no way approximate an extended period of  steeping oneself in an ango. \n<p>Although contemporary Soto has drifted from the importance of  verification in the practice-verification standard, imv, from Dogen to  Keizan and even Bokusan <\/p><\/span><span style=\"font-size: large\">in the 19th century <\/span><span style=\"font-size: large\">(disparaged  as the old boy was by Yasutani) all were clear about the importance of  the \u201cdeep settled mind of the Soto school\u201d for which verification is  essential and all lived much of their lives in ango. \n<p>Zen has always been conservative in that sense \u2013 conservatively  pointing to the essential for future generations (even if not so popular  at any given time), so the conservative grey-hairs (and hairless one\u2019s  too) on the board are in long-standing good company.<\/p>\n<p>From my experience of various styles of practice, it seems that deep  settled mind is so much more salient in ango that I feel sad to see  ango sometimes dismissed in contemporary Zen discourse, often by those who have not had the experience.<\/p><\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">\u201cAwakening\u201d in lay life  is much like dry insight in Vipassana \u2013 what\u2019s seen is the same but the  deep settled mind allows insight to penetrate more thoroughly. Ango  provides guidance, also, in how to live that awakening. Not that such a  person is necessarily a good minister.<\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\"><br><\/span><span style=\"font-size: large\"> I agree with Kyogen in the hope that there will be young people,  especially in the post-peak oil collapse, that will find ango living to  be profoundly meaningful and inexpensive too!<\/span> <\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\">At the same time, I agree with those who suggest that for <\/span><span style=\"font-size: large\">the formation of ministers, <\/span><span style=\"font-size: large\">other  forms of practice are probably more effective and should also be  strongly encouraged or even required (including undertaking  psychotherapy to investigate one\u2019s own issues and programs like the  Sogaku Institute). However, if we are only about training ministers, I  think we miss a lot.<\/span><\/div>\n<div style='font-family: Georgia,\"Times New Roman\",serif'><span style=\"font-size: large\"><br><\/span><span style=\"font-size: large\"> <\/span><span style=\"font-size: large\">I  suggest that having different recognized \u201ctracks\u201d \u2013 minister,  monastic-dharma transmitter, cyber-trained priest, etc. (but with nicer names) \u2013  would be one way through this conundrum for SBZA that would also open  the doors to those who identify as lay teachers and live lives virtually  identical to those who identify as priests. <span style=\"color: #888888\"><br><\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<div class=\"blogger-post-footer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\" src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/tracker\/4330911338438640912-8148888038453304562?l=wildfoxzen.blogspot.com\" alt=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>You might be surprised to learn that many Zen priests in West haven\u2019t done monastic practice and that a number haven\u2019t done a seven-day sesshin.\u00a0 Some people with dharma transmission have done hundreds of sesshin and years of monastic practice. Others have worked through hundreds of koans and\/or studied the Shobogenzo exhaustively. Some have not. [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":182,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-132","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"You might be surprised to learn that many Zen priests in West haven&#039;t done monastic practice and that a number haven&#039;t done a seven-day sesshin.&nbsp;Some\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"You might be surprised to learn that many Zen priests in West haven&#039;t done monastic practice and that a number haven&#039;t done a seven-day sesshin.&nbsp;Some\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Wild Fox Zen\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:author\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dosho.port\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2010-09-22T14:16:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/4.bp.blogspot.com\/_0uPSljNE9f4\/TJlMnHGEpRI\/AAAAAAAAA-0\/DrAjeZQQQ-s\/s400\/101_1594.JPG\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Dosho Port\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Dosho Port\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"4 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html\",\"name\":\"Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2010-09-22T14:16:00+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2010-09-22T14:16:00+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#\/schema\/person\/45224391b7690e99673782337bd0eabd\"},\"description\":\"You might be surprised to learn that many Zen priests in West haven't done monastic practice and that a number haven't done a seven-day sesshin.&nbsp;Some\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/\",\"name\":\"Wild Fox Zen\",\"description\":\"Living the Dream\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":\"required name=search_term_string\"}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#\/schema\/person\/45224391b7690e99673782337bd0eabd\",\"name\":\"Dosho Port\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/7b9712e98924dea6c08d55890403352f?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/7b9712e98924dea6c08d55890403352f?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Dosho Port\"},\"description\":\"Dosho Port began practicing Zen in 1977 and now co-teachers with his wife, Tetsugan Zummach, with the Vine of Obstacles Zen. Dosho received dharma transmission from Dainin Katagiri Roshi and inka shomei from James Myoun Ford Roshi in the Harada-Yasutani lineage. He is the author of \\\"Keep Me In Your Heart Awhile: The Haunting Zen of Dainin Katagiri,\\\" \\\"The Record of Empty Hall: One Hundred Classic Koans,\\\" and \\\"Going Through the Mystery's One Hundred Questions.\\\"\",\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/www.vineobstacleszen.com\/\",\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dosho.port\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/author\/doshoport\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?","description":"You might be surprised to learn that many Zen priests in West haven't done monastic practice and that a number haven't done a seven-day sesshin.&nbsp;Some","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?","og_description":"You might be surprised to learn that many Zen priests in West haven't done monastic practice and that a number haven't done a seven-day sesshin.&nbsp;Some","og_url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html","og_site_name":"Wild Fox Zen","article_author":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dosho.port","article_published_time":"2010-09-22T14:16:00+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"http:\/\/4.bp.blogspot.com\/_0uPSljNE9f4\/TJlMnHGEpRI\/AAAAAAAAA-0\/DrAjeZQQQ-s\/s400\/101_1594.JPG"}],"author":"Dosho Port","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Dosho Port","Est. reading time":"4 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html","name":"Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#website"},"datePublished":"2010-09-22T14:16:00+00:00","dateModified":"2010-09-22T14:16:00+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#\/schema\/person\/45224391b7690e99673782337bd0eabd"},"description":"You might be surprised to learn that many Zen priests in West haven't done monastic practice and that a number haven't done a seven-day sesshin.&nbsp;Some","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2010\/09\/monastic-practice-for-zen-priests.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Monastic Practice for Zen Priests?"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/","name":"Wild Fox Zen","description":"Living the Dream","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":"required name=search_term_string"}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#\/schema\/person\/45224391b7690e99673782337bd0eabd","name":"Dosho Port","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/7b9712e98924dea6c08d55890403352f?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/7b9712e98924dea6c08d55890403352f?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Dosho Port"},"description":"Dosho Port began practicing Zen in 1977 and now co-teachers with his wife, Tetsugan Zummach, with the Vine of Obstacles Zen. Dosho received dharma transmission from Dainin Katagiri Roshi and inka shomei from James Myoun Ford Roshi in the Harada-Yasutani lineage. He is the author of \"Keep Me In Your Heart Awhile: The Haunting Zen of Dainin Katagiri,\" \"The Record of Empty Hall: One Hundred Classic Koans,\" and \"Going Through the Mystery's One Hundred Questions.\"","sameAs":["https:\/\/www.vineobstacleszen.com\/","https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/dosho.port"],"url":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/author\/doshoport"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/132","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/182"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=132"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/132\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=132"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=132"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=132"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}