{"id":374,"date":"2009-03-10T16:56:00","date_gmt":"2009-03-10T16:56:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2009\/03\/containers-that-dont-hold-soto-and-rinzai-zen\/"},"modified":"2009-03-10T16:56:00","modified_gmt":"2009-03-10T16:56:00","slug":"containers-that-dont-hold-soto-and-rinzai-zen","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/wildfoxzen\/2009\/03\/containers-that-dont-hold-soto-and-rinzai-zen.html","title":{"rendered":"Containers That Don&#8217;t Hold: Soto and Rinzai Zen"},"content":{"rendered":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><head><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text\/html; charset=utf-8\"><\/head><body><p><a href=\"https:\/\/2.bp.blogspot.com\/_0uPSljNE9f4\/SbbiOkyTtWI\/AAAAAAAAAUA\/I5seAiDiZP0\/s1600-h\/101_0508.JPG\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img decoding=\"async\" style=\"margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt;float: left;cursor: pointer;width: 320px;height: 240px\" src=\"https:\/\/2.bp.blogspot.com\/_0uPSljNE9f4\/SbbiOkyTtWI\/AAAAAAAAAUA\/I5seAiDiZP0\/s320\/101_0508.JPG\" alt=\"\" border=\"0\"><\/a><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">I\u2019ve been rereading the introduction of <\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/books.google.com\/books?id=LbwnrRmLqPoC&amp;pg=PP1&amp;dq=zen+sand\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">Zen Sand: The Book of Capping Phrases for Koan Practice<\/span><\/span><\/a><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\"> by Victor Sogen Hori, a long-time practitioner of Rinzai Zen in Japan, and reflecting on the \u201ccapping phrase\u201d process that we\u2019re using for the present 100-day training (finding a phrase to express our practice-as-it-really-is each week).<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Meanwhile, the study focus now is from the source of the Soto stream, Dogen-zenji, and these lines from Genjokoan:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cTo convey the self toward the 10,000 dharmas to do practice\/verification is illusion.<br>The 10,000 dharmas advancing and practicing\/verifying through the self is satori.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>While reading Rinzia-guy Hori, I just had one of those \u201ccoming together\u201d moments of traditions entwining that I\u2019d like to share with you.<\/p>\n<p>Although there are differences between Soto and Rinzai Zen, I\u2019ve always been more interested in their similarities. It seems to me that some of major differences, especially about the most important things, are semantic. Take, for example, the matter of \u201c<a href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Kensho\" class=\" decorated-link\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">kensho<\/span><\/a><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">,\u201d literally \u201cseeing [true] nature.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Below, I\u2019ll first offer you a passage (marked \u201cExhibit A\u201d) from Zen Sand (p. 7) and then a selection from the Genjokoan by old Soto man Dogen (\u201cExhibit B\u201d). The following passage from Hori, by the way, also makes an important distinction between samadhi and insight that I encourage you practitioners to pay careful attention too.<\/p>\n<p>Exhibit A:<br>Kensho<span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">, the experience of awakening, is more than merely the state of concentrated <\/span><\/span><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">samadhi<\/span><span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">. When the <\/span><\/span><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">Great Doubt<\/span><span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\"> has totally taken over the self, there is no more distinction between self and other, subject and object. There is no more differentiation, no more attachment. This is merely <\/span><\/span><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">samadhi <\/span><span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">and not <\/span><\/span><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">kensho. Kensho<\/span><span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\"> is not the self\u2019s withdrawal from the conventional world, but rather the selfless self breaking back into the conventional world. It is only when this samadhi has been shattered that a new self arises. This self returns and again sees the things of the world as objects, but now as empty objects; it again thinks in differentiated categories and feels attachment, but now with insight into their emptiness.<\/span><\/span><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p>Exhibit B:<br><span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">To study buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be verified by all things. To be veri\u00acfied by all things is to let the body and mind of the self, and body and mind of others, drop off. There is a trace of realization that cannot be grasped.  We endlessly keep expressing the un\u00acgraspable trace of realization.<\/span><\/span><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p>Dogen didn\u2019t often used the word <span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">kensho<\/span><\/span><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\"> and when he did he tended to belittle it and likened it to \u201c\u2026playing in the entranceway, still short of the vital path of emancipation.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Nevertheless, what Dogen describes above \u2013 studying, forgetting, verifying, dropping self and other, ungraspable realization, endless expression \u2013 certainly has strong resonance with Hori\u2019s words above \u2013 no distinction between self and other, selfless self breaking back into the conventional world ( \u201c\u2026the 10,000 dharmas advancing and practicing\/verifying through the self is satori\u201d), thinking again but with insight into emptiness (e.g., nonthinking).<\/p>\n<p>The rusty barrel has been in the woods a long time \u2013 but it leaked from the start.<\/p>\n<p>The most important point, whether you identify with the Rinzai line and use the word <span style=\"font-style: italic\"><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\">kensho<\/span><\/span><span class=\"Apple-style-span\" style=\"font-size:medium\"> or with the Soto line and use \u201cverification,\u201d is to practice in such a way that you might nod and smile to yourself, no longer a believer or a by-stander. <\/span><\/p>\n<div class=\"blogger-post-footer\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\" src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/tracker\/4330911338438640912-8633170763920671249?l=wildfoxzen.blogspot.com\" alt=\"\"><\/div>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I\u2019ve been rereading the introduction of Zen Sand: The Book of Capping Phrases for Koan Practice by Victor Sogen Hori, a long-time practitioner of Rinzai Zen in Japan, and reflecting on the \u201ccapping phrase\u201d process that we\u2019re using for the present 100-day training (finding a phrase to express our practice-as-it-really-is each week). Meanwhile, the study [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":182,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-374","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v21.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Containers That Don&#039;t Hold: Soto and Rinzai Zen<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"I\u2019ve been rereading the introduction of Zen Sand: The Book of Capping Phrases for Koan Practice by Victor Sogen Hori, a long-time practitioner of Rinzai\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" 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