Four of the Lies Anti-Vaxxers Want You to Believe

Four of the Lies Anti-Vaxxers Want You to Believe September 1, 2018
Photo Credit Pixabay


Anti-vaccination groups do a great job of scaring people about the dangers of vaccines. Anytime I post on the topic, I get many nastygrams from anti-vax parents. If I didn’t have a father who worked a career in public health, I might have fallen victim to their propaganda. Thankfully, he taught me the value of herd immunity. Vaccinating my son was never a question. However, for populations less educated on the topic, the anti-vax groups can be incredibly compelling with their so-called data. Vaccinations are incredibly necessary for me due to my son’s fragile health. For these reasons, I want to debunk four lies that anti-vax groups spread.

  Vaccines Cause Autism

Anti-vaccination groups love to talk about an ingredient in vaccines called Thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative that prevented contamination of vaccines. Since 2003, the Center for Disease Control has conducted nine studies to test the link between thimerosal and autism. Every single study has shown there is no link. Additionally, Thimerosal was removed from all vaccines between 1999-2001. The only vaccine that contains thimerosal today is the flu vaccine. However, flu vaccinations are available in thimerosal-free shots.

Individuals have also tried to tie other ingredients in vaccines to shots. Again, there are no studies that indicate any correlation between autism and vaccinations.

Anti-vax groups will point to studies down by a British scientist Andrew Wakefield as the source for their concerns about vaccines and autism. However, Wakefield only reviewed the cases of 12 children. The organization that published his paper investigated his claims and study results locating numerous errors in his research. Wakefield’s publisher eventually redacted his paper, and he ultimately lost his license to practice medicine in the United Kingdom.

I’m not sure how many studies need to be done to conclude there is no correlation between autism and vaccines. The fact that anti-vaxxers completely negate scientific proof demonstrates their commitment to perpetuating lies.

Vaccine Shedding Causes Illness

When I wrote a blog on autism and vaccines, a strong proponent of vaccines told me kids who aren’t vaccinated get sick from vaccinated kids due to shedding that occurs from live vaccines. Shedding of the disease can only happen in a live vaccine, and there are only three vaccines that made from live viruses. Chickenpox, MMR, and rotavirus are the only vaccines that contain live pathogens.

The Immunization Partnership noted that of the 50 million chickenpox vaccines delivered in the United States, there are only 11 reported cases of contracting the disease via shedding. 11 people out of 50 million are pretty good odds you aren’t going to get sick from the virus. Patients that receive the vaccine that get a rash are advised to stay away from anyone with a weakened immune system.

According to Dr. Susan H. Wootton, a specialist in infectious disease and associate professor at the University of Texas McGovern Medical School, the MMR vaccine doesn’t shed. Signs of the virus can be found in the blood for 7-28 days following immunization. However, the levels of the virus in the vaccines are so low that they cannot infect an unvaccinated individual.

Rotavirus can be found in stools in some babies following the vaccine. However, transmission of the disease is extremely rare. Physicians say that the benefits far outweigh the risks of the disease. If children don’t receive the rotavirus vaccine, every child will get the virus by age five. The World Health Organization estimated 215,000 deaths of children due to rotavirus in 2013.

Vaccine shedding is extremely rare. Even if there is shedding, the risk of infection is extremely low. This argument does not stand up against any evidence backed by science.

Too Many Vaccines

I’ll never forget an image a friend shared with me about the number of vaccines given to children today vs. the number of vaccines children received in 1983. The image is designed to provoke outrage. In 1983, there were seven diseases the CDC recommended as vaccinations. Due to the way the vaccines were made in 1983, babies were exposed to 3,000 antigens by 12 months old and 12,000 antigens by age four.

Today the CDC recommends 14 vaccines for infants and children. If a parent follows the recommended vaccination schedule, a child is exposed to 105-204 antigens by 12 months old. By age four, the child will have been exposed to a total of 359 antigens.

Simple math tells you that 359 antigens are much less than 12,000 antigens. Even with more vaccines, children are exposed to significantly fewer antigens. The argument has no supporting evidence to make this argument valid.

Vaccines Contain Unsafe Toxins

Anti-vax groups love to talk about all the horrible toxins in vaccines. Their favorite ingredient to target is aluminum. Aluminum is the third most naturally occurring element next to silicon and oxygen. Several vaccines contain aluminum because it strengthens the immune system’s response to the vaccine.

A child that is breastfed will ingest around 7 milligrams of aluminum through their diet by six months old. In contrast, the recommended vaccines given during this time only expose the infant to 4.4 milligrams of aluminum. The amount of aluminum is so low that it doesn’t increase the amount of aluminum found in the blood.

Another toxin they like to scare people with is Formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is used to detoxify bacterias in the vaccines. By eliminating bacteria, people won’t get sick when injected. An average child will have more formaldehyde in their body than what is in a vaccine. A typical vaccine will have .02 ml per dose of formaldehyde. The average 2-month-old child has 1.1 ml of formaldehyde in their blood.

Vaccines don’t contain toxins that will harm the body. In fact, most ingredients used in vaccines naturally occur in children in higher quantities. There is no evidence to support this claim.

What is the Truth?

The truth is despite all the arguments anti-vax groups provide to naive individuals; there is no truth behind any of their claims.

Vaccines do not cause autism.

Shedding of vaccines does not increase infections in unvaccinated children.

There are not more toxins going into our children due to the number of vaccines our children receive.

The levels of toxins used in vaccines are less than what the body naturally produces.

The World Health Organization reminds everyone to stick to the facts when it comes to vaccines. Every year, 1.5 million children die due to vaccine-preventable deaths. To protect the population from outbreaks, the WHO recommends 95% of people get vaccinated. When it comes to disease, herd immunity matters.

Stop listening to the lies driven by the anti-vax movement. Science supports the safety and benefits of vaccines. The only way we can reduce preventable death from diseases is via vaccination. Vaccination is a modern tool that we should all embrace and no longer fear.

Don’t believe the hype of the anti-vax movement.


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  • Lucy

    It turns out that autistic activist Morénike Giwa Onaiwu wrote an article detailing another side to the consequences of the lies anti-vaxxers spread, called “The Lady on the Plane” ( ). In it, she talks about how she met a woman from a developing country who was sitting next to her on a plane and knew all too well the consequences of being unvaccinated and urged her son together his kids vaccinated – yet, when that lady heard what anti-vaxxers had to say, she found herself torn between guilt at the possibility that her insistence to her son on getting his kids vaccinated led to his grandkid’s autism, and the knowledge of the consequences of no vaccination. basically, she was left wondering if she should have taken the massive risk of her kid dying of diseases she feared to see and thrown away the advantage getting vaccinations in a developed country brings, so as to prevent autism in the kids. Morénike assured her that the anti-vaxxer propaganda was misinformation, and that helped the woman feel much better. But you can bet that woman is far from the only person from a developing country caught in a horrible bind like that. And not all of them find themselves sitting next to Morénike Giwa Onaiwu or someone else who will take the time, and is in a position to, reassure them that the anti-vaxxer lies are just that, lies.

  • That happened in Minnesota. Wakefield came here and convinced an enter immigrant community that mmr caused asd. They stopped vaccinating. We had an outbreak here last year

  • persephone

    First, I’m old. So I’ve actually known a time before all the vaccines we have now.

    When I was 2, I came down with the measles. My mother spent nearly two weeks not knowing if I would live.

    When I was a kid, rubella was a huge issue. There wasn’t yet a vaccine, and because it was so prevalent, female teachers–and probably other working women–who became pregnant would immediately quit their jobs, rather than risk the birth defects that could come from being infected. The development of the rubella vaccine gave women the choice to continue working while expecting.

    My grandmother lost her parents in the Spanish Influenza of WWI. Three little girls, 3, 5, and 7, orphaned because of a disease.

    My kids have had all the available vaccines, including HPV and chickenpox. I want to give them the best chance to live a safer life. Any parent who would choose not to vaccinate is a fool. And evil. And selfish.

    One of my sons is on the high end of the AS. But, then, so am I. My mother, who didn’t have all the vaccines shows similar behavior. This was not from vaccines. It’s a genetic condition.

  • Good for you. My son is asd too – I’m adhd – so we are both neuro divergent- and he takes after me

  • se habla espol

    A coupla points that came to mind while reading:
    • MMR never contained thimerosal. MMR is a live- vaccine, and thimerosal would render it useless by killing off the active antigen.
    • The title is flat wrong: The anti-vax industry has many more than four lie they use for selling their ideas. A more accurate title would be “Four of the lies …”.
    • Wakefield was ‘struck off’—his doctor’s license revoked—for research fraud, the very paper the anti-vax industry cites.
    • Many of the “toxins” the anti-vax industry cites are used in the manufacture of the vaccine but do not appear in the product. In any case, they appear only at non-toxic levels.

  • gimpi1

    I’m the daughter of a polio survivor. I still remember my grandmother describing the fear when a child ran a high fever in the spring, and the sheer terror when the parents realized that it was polio. My mother wore braces and walked with crutches from three years old. She was confined to a wheelchair in her early 30’s. The curvature of her spine caused life-long gastric and cardiovascular problems. She died at 49.

    You don’t see kids with post-polio syndrome anymore. No crutches and braces, no back-braces, no polio-caused curved spines. No springtime terror,. Vaccines did that.

    I’m 60, so I’m older than many people considering vaccines for their kids. I hope they’ll listen to us older folks about what life was like before vaccines.

  • Raging Bee

    Also, I’ve heard that many or most of the kids who become autistic shortly after being vaccinated, showed early signs of autism BEFORE they got their shots.

  • Mike Stevens

    [Yeah, the MMR/thimerosal thing is confusing to many, which isn’t helped by the antivax liers who always conflate issues].

    Regarding “shedding” from vaccines; a few points to drum home to people:

    1. It only applies to a couple of the live viral vaccines, and not all vaccines.

    2. The virus that is shed is “vaccine strain” virus, in other words it is pretty much harmless, and shedding is very brief.

    3. Although someone exposed to the vaccine virus might acquire the infection, this is very rare, and the usual result will be that the person exposed merely gets a freebie vaccination themselves (if they have never been vaccinated), or the equivalent a “booster” shot (if they have been previously vaccinated).

    4. The only potential risk of consequence from acquiring a vaccine-strainn virus from a recently vaccinated individual is a particular situation regarding chickenpox. If an immunosuppressed child is exposed to “shed” vaccine virus, then the immunosuppressed child might develop a clinical chickenpox type illness, because of their poor immunity. Though unpleasant, this illness will be far less severe than would a virulent, wild-type chickenpox infection in an immunosuppressed child (when death is sometimes the result).

  • FallsAngel

    And it looks like you’re getting another one.
    “State health officials are investigating a case of measles in a Hennepin
    County 5-year-old who became ill in early August shortly after
    returning from international travel to a region where measles is common.”
    An article in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune said the child was of Somali ancestry and had been to Africa.

  • Yep, I said it only applies to 3 vaccines and said it’s rare.

  • Jim Jones

    Aluminum is perfectly safe. Due to a compounding mistake (much more dangerous) a group of people got serious overdoses of aluminum. A few even died.

    None got Alzheimer disease.

    We all get multiple hits every day from viruses. Most are too low to affect us. Some are high enough to harm us badly (like the cold I got this year which made me extremely sick).

    A vaccine is just the right dose (like Goldilocks’ oatmeal). Not big enough to hurt, but just big enough to create immunity. What are the chances of that happening by luck?

  • Jim Jones

    Thimerosal is safe. They are confusing two different compounds. Thimerosal quickly leaves the body.

    Some mercury compounds are dangerous but people have used Calomel for years and it contains mercury.

  • Jim Jones

    I got the polio vaccine as a teen in high school. One of the happiest days of my life.

  • Dan Bland

    If vaccines are so safe why did the vaccine industry get their lobbyists to make laws to protect them from lawsuits? Would they have done that if they were safe? Since some of you are so pro-vaccine maybe it would be wise for me to tell you about VAERS which is a governmental agency for people who have been vaccine injured to get compensation. They have paid out $3,000,000,000 so far and most Americans don’t even know it exists. Please tell others about it. Thank you.

  • Jim Jones

    Nothing comes without risk. Example: Texas Chili.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Is this the Onion? Pro-vaxxers sound stupid when they try to fool people into believing what “anti-vaxxers claim,” and then “debunk” it. Sorry Katie, you played your troll card by not even getting it right that the MMR even contained Thimerosal. Then you blab about how good it is. You debunk yourself. Quit the vax defense game. You stink at it.

  • Let’s get some things straight:
    • the MMR, being a live viral vaccine, has never contained Thimerosal. It would inactivate the viruses.
    • Dr. Julie Gerberding admitted on CNN in 2008 the following:

    “Now, we all know that vaccines can occasionally cause fevers in kids. So if a child was immunized, got a fever, had other complications from the vaccines. And if you’re predisposed with a mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism.” — CDC Director Julie Gerberding, 2008

    How many autistic children have mitochondrial disorders? The estimate is somewhere between 25% and 40%. Learn all about it here:
    ” The studies reviewed herein provide support to the idea of a link between mitochondrial dysfunction and the behavioural phenotype of autism.”

    Mitochondrial Dysfunction in Autism Spectrum Disorders

    This was followed up by:

    “[I]t’s a possibility [that vaccines might cause autism in genetically susceptible individuals]…. It’s hard to predict who those children might be…. More research is needed to determine if there are rare cases where underlying mitochondrial disorders are triggered by anything related to vaccines.” — CDC Director of Immunization Safety Frank DeStefano, 2015

    So please stop telling people that vaccines don’t cause autism when they clearly do and we have at least one mechanism fully worked out.

    • ANY immune activation can damage the delicate infant brain. That’s why you find neuroscientists saying the following:

    “…any factors that alter the number or activation state of microglia either in utero or during the early postnatal period can profoundly affect neural development, thus resulting in neurodevelopmental disorders, including autism.”
—Tomoyuki Takano (Shiga University of Medical Science, Japan), 2015


    “It is not reasonable to assume that manipulation of the immune system through an increasing number of vaccinations during critical periods of brain development will not result in adverse neurodevelopment outcomes.”
    — Sienkiewicz D. et al, Neurologic adverse events following vaccination, Department of Pediatric Rehabilitation of the Medical University of Bialystok, Poland


    “And what does vaccination do? It activates the immune system. That’s the point of vaccination…I think that universal vaccination of pregnant women could get us into a whole new set of problems.”
— Dr. Paul Patterson, et. al. (California Institute of Technology), 2006

    Activating the immune system of the mother is why kids are being born with brain damage. Dr. Patterson was the scientist who created an autistic monkey in 2014 at the UC Davis Primate Lab and he did it by activating the immune system of the mother. The infant monkey was born with autism.

    Activation of the Maternal Immune System During Pregnancy Alters Behavioral Development of Rhesus Monkey Offspring
    Melissa D. Bauman, Ana-Maria Iosif, Stephen E.P. Smith, Catherine Bregere, David G. Amaral, and Paul H. Patterson, Biological Psychiatry, 2014

    Why are the kids’ brains so damaged? Repeated immune activation with or without mitochondrial damage is one major biological mechanism.

  • Brian

    How fun! The anti-vax conspiracy crowd has arrived to prove the author correct!

  • Brian

    The unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated, so it’s obvious the two aren’t connected.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    How pro-vaxxers lie. They tell us that pro-vax lie about how unvaccinated = vaccinated.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    There’s the lie I know Brian loves. Unvaccinated = vaccinated!

  • Brian

    You’ve got your anti-vaccine talking points mixed up, but nice try.

  • Ruth Lafler

    That’s simple. Vaccines are not 100 percent safe. Nothing is. Since the government requires people to be vaccinated, they indemnified the vaccine makers to keep the manufacturers’ costs down and remove any dis-incentive to producing vaccines because of liability risks. VAERS pays out on claims if there is even a possibility the injury is vaccine-related — claimants do not have the same burden of proof they would in an actual lawsuit. Considering the millions of vaccinations that are given every year, $3 billion over the life of the agency doesn’t show that vaccines are risky — quite the opposite!

  • Ruth Lafler

    “Aluminum is the third most naturally occurring element next to silicone and oxygen.” — It’s the third most in the Earth’s crust. For the Earth’s surface in its entirety it’s not even close, and it’s “silicon” not “silicone”!

  • Brian

    And it’s VICP, not VAERS, which is something different.

  • Kira Wadman

    And no one died in that Minnesota outbreak. Everyone recovered beautifully and now have real immunity.

  • I love how you ignore that the amount of aluminum in the vaccines is less than what naturally occurs in the body – or that it’s less than what is breast milk. But focus on whatever you need

  • Keep dreaming. That outbreak was a public health mess and made things extremely complicated for all children that had to be seen at any clinic.

  • “Thimerosal quickly leaves the body.”

    This is incorrect but people keep repeating it. Berbacher showed that ethyl mercury left the blood and moved into the brain faster than methyl mercury. Leaving the blood is *not* the same as leaving the body since it is going to the brain.

    Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal, Burbacher et al., 2005

  • thimerosal isn’t in the vaccines – so I am not sure why you even fight the point

  • Nice article. It’s always refreshing to see pro-science, pro-vaccine rationalism.
    … And the lying, dishonest anti-vaccine death cultists descend…
    Brian should probably post his anti-vaccine trope translation list.

  • Raging Bee

    Um…who has ever said that?

  • Thanks! We love science in this house. Which is why we also don’t believe in mythical creatures in the sky. We also believe dinosaurs existed and in evolution

  • Thimerosal was removed from pediatric vaccines in 2001, 17 years ago.
    What was the affect on the incidence of autism? The rate just kept rising rather than plummeting, almost as if Thimerosal has nothing to do with autism just as the scientists said. Did that provoked the ignoramuses in the anti-vaccine death cult to issue an apology for fear mongering and needlessly scaring young parents with their uneducated and paranoid declarations? No. Indeed, one prominent anti-vaccine leader stated that if Thimerosal was removed and autism rates did not plummet he would shut up. Guess what? The ignorant liar is still posting anti-vaccine articles only now the boogieman is aluminum. When you are an irrational fanatic no facts or science will change your beliefs.
    Why do anti-vaccine cultists constantly lie?

  • perhaps these individuals that are so scared of autism – need to spend time with an Autistic person. My son is pretty dang amazing. Nothing to fear.

  • Dan Bland

    How much does Merck pay you? Not enough. The latest research concludes the aluminum in vaccines are not only causing the autism epidemic but also autoimmune diseases. My son has suffered from Type 1 diabetes for almost 30 years and I will continue to come to these pages to spread the word. Vaccines are dangerous to certain genotypes and you people who support vaccines fully are just as guilty as the manufacturers.

  • Dan Bland

    I’m glad you know about all the governmental agencies that must pay the young families whose babies were injured by the vaccines that you so fully support.

  • Dan Bland


  • Dan Bland
  • do you have a VARS number? If so, please share

  • you draw a lot of assumptions. I have a friend with a paralyzed child from vaccines. I know there are risks.

  • Dan Bland

    It’s the aluminum in vaccines causing the injuries. Try to keep up with the latest research please.

  • Well, they constantly bang on about Thimerosal/mercury because they are delusionally obsessed… Just like RFK, Jr. and his anti-vaccine World Mercury Project which would be better named Loony Antivax Project.
    RFK, Jr. still rants on about Thimerosal and has even recently written a book about it… when the subject of his delusion hasn’t been in childhood vaccine since 2001.
    Can you say OCD?
    One wonders if RFK, Jr. is still ranting about Corvairs being “Unsafe at any speed” and Ford Pinto’s gas tanks.
    I can’t think of a more loony and irrelevant anti-vaxxer than RFK, Jr. The rest of the family must be so proud.

  • “Thimerosal was removed from pediatric vaccines in 2001, 17 years ago.”

    No, it wasn’t. The multi-dose flu shot that contains Thimerosal is given to both pregnant mothers and children and these vaccines have been added to the schedule since 2001.

    The maximum dose of Thimerosal from these vaccines is approximately 151µg or 63.7% of the 1999 peak if just one prenatal flu shot is received by the mother. If two shots are received because the pregnancy spans two flu seasons, add another 25µg, bringing the total to very close to what it was in the late 90s.

    Flu shot coverage of 6 months to 17 years is 59%:

    Mercury is preferentially taken up by the fetus:

    Maternal transfer of mercury to the developing embryo/fetus: is there a safe level?, 2012

    It is a false statement to say that children are no longer exposed to Thimerosal in vaccines. A significant number of children are receiving amounts very close to those from the late 90s.

  • Dan Bland

    Why don’t you spend a month taking care of an autistic child to see how much fun it is.

  • It’s both. See my comment below. Plus, Al and Hg are synergistically toxic.

    Synergism in aluminum and mercury neurotoxicity, 2018

  • Waving the white Alex Jones “shill” flag of surrender so soon, Dan Bland?
    Accusing others of being paid shills is the anti-vaccine death cult’s default argument when they don’t have any facts or evidence to support their position.
    It is as much as them saying, “I’ve got nothing… you win.”

  • Know your audience. I am a mother of an autistic child.

  • vaccines don’t cause autism.

  • non-thimerosal versions are available for the flu shot- I stated as much in the article. And BTW I’m the mother of an autistic child. So quit with the brain damage and scare tactic rhetoric. Neuro-diversity isn’t a bad thing. What is bad are people that are intolerant of their differences.

  • Please do not add anymore links – or I will ban you from the page for spamming. Thank you

  • nemtim

    Vaccines are harmful neurotoxins and do cause autism. Big Pharma will never admit what they have done, you will have to figure it out yourself and think about how the cigarette companies funded their own studies to continue lying about the hazards of cigarette smoke. Wake up!!!

  • nemtim

    Please stop deleting comments that you don’t like. Allow information to be put out for people to decide themselves.

  • Sorry? Providing citations to scientific articles is spamming to you?

    This is the first I have ever come across this.

    Why do you consider including references for points being made “spamming?” You do see that these are to PubMed and the CDC, yes?

  • Dan Bland

    Latest research concludes high levels of aluminum in the brain tissue of deceased autistic individuals. Even higher levels than those found in people with alzheimer’s. Aluminum adjuvants are causing autism and autoimmune diseases and you people goose stepping with the vaccine corporations are just as guilty as they are in causing these lifelong maladies. I hope no one in your family becomes a victim.

  • More importantly, does Dan have any evidence that aluminum in vaccines can cause T1 diabetes?
    There are studies that find that vaccines are not associated with T1 diabetes and other autoimmune diseases but there are none for the anti-vaccine cult’s position.
    (Waiting for Dan to start blubbering on about Shaw, Tomljenovic, Exley, Shoenfeld, Gherardi, et al. the other biased, shoddy, retracted schlockmeisters)

  • Nice anti-vax Konspiracee rant!!!!!!1!!!!
    Not enough RAnDom cApITAliZatIOnS nor exclamation marks, however!!!!!!!!11!!!1!!!

  • You win—by censorship. You have deleted my comments that include references to PubMed and the CDC that rebut your points. Cheers.

  • Dan Bland

    Go sober up please.

  • Dan Bland

    How many times has the CDC lied about the vaccine autism Connections? Who dares argue with me?

  • Thank for the link to the NVICP program.
    Note the first sentence: “Vaccines save lives by preventing disease.”

    In very rare cases, a vaccine can cause a serious problem, such as a severe allergic reaction. In these instances, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP) may provide financial compensation to individuals who file a petition and are found to have been injured by a VICP-covered vaccine. Even in cases in which such a finding is not made, petitioners may receive compensation through a settlement.
    I’d say this was very, very generous. You don’t even have to prove the vaccine caused the problem and you may get an award.
    You don’t have to pay for the lawyer… the NVICP program pays them whether you win or lose. (Which has created a situation where ‘vaccine lawyers’ have swamped the VICP with claims that they haven’t even reviewed themselves… just to get the billing started… sleazy lawyers.)
    Thanks for this pro-vax link.

  • I only deleted one comment. If you don’t like how my page is moderated – you can kindly see the door

  • A victim? My son is autistic!

  • Still waiting for Dan’s VARS number

  • She has no intention of doing this. She—or Patheos—has now deleted three of my well-cited, perfectly polite comments.

  • Stop calling people with autism brain damaged and your comments won’t get deleted

  • I have not deleted any but 1 comment

  • shay simmons

    “Latest research concludes high levels of aluminum in the brain tissue of deceased autistic individuals.”

    Are you referring to Exley’s most recent paper that didn’t bother to use controls?

    Perhaps you can explain how he determined there were high levels of aluminum in the brain tissue of deceased autistic individuals when his study did not look at brain tissue from deceased individuals who were not autistic. What did he compare his samples to?

  • None.
    Present your evidence, by all means.

    See if you can do it without resorting to unevidenced conpiracy theories.

    Please don’t bring in anti-vaccine konspiracee sites and their delusional, ranting articles about ‘the CDC Whistleblower’ Dr. Thompson. We’ve heard enough lies about that non-story already. Why do you think nobody’s heard from the guy in 4 years?

  • Shay for the win!

  • Still waiting on that VARS number – or cited sources for how the CDC lies

  • shay simmons

    “Everyone recovered beautifully and now have real immunity.”

    I’m sure the parents of the 31% of the affected who had to be hospitalized appreciate your flippant dismissal of their experience.

  • VARS = VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System)

  • “non-thimerosal versions are available for the flu shot”

    Agreed. However, that’s not relevant when 40 million doses of flu shots *do* contain Thimerosol and no one tells the mother not to get those.

    Someone re-instated my comment. Thank you.

  • Thanks!

  • The event was horrible. I saw horrified and scared mothers carrying lifeless children into the ER

  • Healthy matched control brains were not available. Dr Exley stated the following about the lack of controls:

    “We discussed control tissues but the only available were not age-matched and nor were they true controls as the donors were individuals in their 40s and 50s who died of a certain disease or condition. No age-matched healthy donor brain tissues were available. However, we have more data on the Al content of human brain tissue than anyone else and so we are in a position to compare our autism data with other data relating to almost 100 human brains. This is how we can come to our judgement that the values measured were some of the highest values ever measured in any individuals.”
    -Dr Chris Exley on the Mold 2017 aluminum measurements

    The data are valid: these brains had high aluminum content and they came from individuals with autism.

  • Every single VALID scientific study must have controls. Otherwise, there is nothing to compare it to

  • Dan Bland

    May I ask why you use the phrase conspiracy theory? William Thompson is a whistle blower who still works for the CDC but he has been silenced. Robert Kennedy, Jr. subpoenaed Thompson to appear in an autism case in Tennessee but the CDC wouldn’t allow it. Thompson admitted to another scientist who has an autistic child that he is now highly remorseful because he and his coauthors destroyed data that proved vaccines cause autism and published without that data. That paper is the main paper often cited that vaccines don’t cause autism. Another case in point is the Vertraetten study in which, again, the statistics proved that vaccines cause autism but the CDC covered up that one too. Shall I tell everyone about Poul Thorsen too or have you had enough?

  • Ruth Lafler

    I’m focusing on the fact that your scientific errors detract from your argument — an argument I agree with and want to see as strong as possible. But go ahead, be defensive rather than admit you made a mistake.

  • – The US 2018 supply of flu vaccine was >80% Thimerosal free single dose. In California it is illegal to use Thimerosal containing flu vaccine for children. Unless you want to be laughed off the planet, do not bring up the attempt by Cali to get permission to use Thimerosal flu vaccine during a shortage of Thimerosal free vaccine. That takes legislative/executive political emergency action.
    BTW – Which states require the flu shot for school attendance? Ans = none.
    – “maximum dose… 151µg”? I’d like to see that tortured, dishonest calculation. My bet is it all comes from the assumption that every flu shot contains 25 µg Hg and 100% of the population gets the flu shot.

  • Mike Stevens

    Aangel runs an “educational” course on vaccines to disseminate carefully cherry picked and deliberately misrepresented information.
    It is full of antivaccine propaganda.

  • Who gets those 40 million doses is the proper question.
    But, fear mongering is more important for the anti-vaccine death cult. The Thimerosal in flu vaccine is perfectly safe for a child to get even though they aren’t given the multi-dose version.

  • He’s got more than opinion in this game?
    Could it be $$ and his income depends on scaring young parents so they hang on his every word and pay for his advice?
    Say it isn’t so…

  • It is the third most in the earth. 🙂 Not gonna change it. Nor will I change the fact that the amount that is found in breast milk is more than what is in vaccines

  • pretty sure he does

  • Mike Stevens

    It’s “Burbacher”.
    …And his study didn’t demonstrate that at all.
    In fact he was unable to obtain any thimerosal containing infant vaccines for his study, because there weren’t any…

  • give us the deets

  • “In California it is illegal to use Thimerosal containing flu vaccine for children.”

    California gets a waiver for this rule every year. I would include a link but I’ve been told that is considered spamming on this forum.

    Further, that’s just one state.

  • Hahahaha.
    Exley’s schlocky brain study?
    I’ve got a question for you, Mr. Gullible.
    If I run a store and you order a steak @ $10.00/lb. and I weigh the said steak and get these results:
    1 – 1.45# You think it may weigh less and ask for a reweigh…
    2 – 1.55# You still think it may weigh less and ask for a third and final reweigh…
    3 – 27.00#
    I now merely average those 3 readings and declare the steak weighs 10.00# and charge you $100.00.
    That’s how Exely did his brain assays. It’s ridiculous but that is what he did and didn’t think anything was wrong with his analysis. That’s how dumb or dishonest he is.

  • Dan Bland

    May I ask why you use the phrase conspiracy theory? William Thompson is a whistle blower who still works for the CDC but he has been silenced. Robert Kennedy, Jr. subpoenaed Thompson to appear in an autism case in Tennessee but the CDC wouldn’t allow it. Thompson admitted to another scientist who has an autistic child that he is now highly remorseful because he and his coauthors destroyed data that proved vaccines cause autism and published without that data. That paper is the main paper often cited that vaccines don’t cause autism. Another case in point is the Vertraetten study in which, again, the statistics proved that vaccines cause autism but the CDC covered up that one too. Shall I tell everyone about Poul Thorsen too or have you had enough?

  • Dan Bland

    May I ask why you use the phrase conspiracy theory? William Thompson is a whistle blower who still works for the CDC but he has been silenced. Robert Kennedy, Jr. subpoenaed Thompson to appear in an autism case in Tennessee but the CDC wouldn’t allow it. Thompson admitted to another scientist who has an autistic child that he is now highly remorseful because he and his coauthors destroyed data that proved vaccines cause autism and published without that data. That paper is the main paper often cited that vaccines don’t cause autism. Another case in point is the Vertraetten study in which, again, the statistics proved that vaccines cause autism but the CDC covered up that one too.

  • persephone

    Definitely. The parents either ignored the behavior or wanted to chalk it up to something other than their genetics.

    My two sons were very different, even when still babies. The differences were there. My ex was a horror, and I got into an argument with him one day over our ASD son. What shut him up was when I said, “[Son] is me.” That’s when my ex finally shut up, thought about it, and backed off.

  • The data and study is laughable. Exley is a crackpot who had been trying to link Alzheimer’s to aluminum with no success for 20+ years. Then for job security, he hit on the idea of linking it to autism, etc. via vaccines. Now he has the fawning, delusional, and dishonest anti-vaccine cult financing his “research” and hanging on his every crackpot idea.

  • Dan Bland

    I would also like to add that William Thompson’s coauthor, Colleen Boyle, was also involved in fraudulent research on another study concluding agent orange did not harm Vietnam vets. Later research proved that agent orange indeed caused hard to our vets.

  • I’m afraid you are unaware of the current science.

    “It is now well-established that aluminum directly causes Alzheimer’s-like memory impairment, behavioral problems, and learning deficits in animals, even in very low doses.”

    A team of neuroscientists led by Dr. Walter Lukiw, PhD, Professor of Neurology, Neuroscience and Ophthalmology at Louisiana State University, has been studying the potential contribution of aluminum to the onset, development and progression of Alzheimer’s disease for about 30 years. Dr. Lukiw and his fellow researchers recently summarized the research linking aluminum and Alzheimer’s disease in a peer-reviewed article published in Frontiers in Aging Neuroscience.[1]

    “Aluminum’s contribution to Alzheimer’s disease is based upon at least seven independently derived observations,” the researchers stated.[2] Briefly, those seven pieces of evidence are:

    • Aluminum strongly promotes beta-amyloid plaques in the brain at levels corresponding to those currently found in humans.

    • Aluminum promotes inflammation in the brain by increasing the pro-inflammatory molecule known as nuclear factor kappa beta (NF-kB), a prominent feature in the brains of people with Alzheimer’s disease.

    • Out of the many thousands of brain gene messenger RNA molecules (molecules that convey genetic information from DNA to cause gene expression), aluminum increases the same ones that are increased in Alzheimer’s disease.

    • Adding aluminum to the diets of animals with Alzheimer’s disease causes additional brain changes associated with Alzheimer’s disease such oxidative stress, programmed cell death, and deficits in gene expression.

    • Aluminum also causes the same types of cellular energy deficits that are associated with Alzheimer’s disease, such as impaired signaling involving ATP and energy utilization.

    • A very significant number of studies link the amount of aluminum in drinking water to the incidence of Alzheimer’s disease. (Worldwide, aluminum is added to drinking water as a clarification or “finishing” agent.)

    • Out of all the Alzheimer’s disease drug treatments tried to date, chelation using an aluminum chelator has been shown to be one of the most effective therapeutic strategies yet.

    Feel free to eat or drink all the aluminum you want. The rest of us are paying attention to the science.

  • Mike Stevens

    “Whistleblower…who has been silenced”

    There is absolutely nothing stopping him blowing his whistle if he wants to. He doesn’t have to make some pronouncement in court; he can pick up the phone to the media anytime he wants.

    ”he and his coauthors destroyed data that proved vaccines cause autism and published without that data.”

    Really? That would be why he announced that all the data was still stored on the CDC servers, and why others have been able to access and reanalyse his data and publish the results? Very odd that.

    Yeah, conspiracy seems an apt term for this antivaccine garbage…

  • Which states require the flu shot?
    I’d like to see that evidence that “California gets a waiver… every year.”
    Use a malformed link. Surely you know how to make one of those.
    Then I’d like to see how many children actually get the Thimerosal containing vaccine. Just because it is available doesn’t mean it was used like you assume. I assume that in other states the multi-dose vials of flu vaccines are used in institutions such as nursing homes, retirement homes, hospitals, etc. and are used mainly for adult/elderly consumption.

  • Let’s see that 151µg Hg calculation, aangel.
    Details, please.

  • in our case it is genetics. I have ADHD as does my husband and ASD runs on my Dad’s side of the family

  • Mike Stevens

    They haven’t lied, Dan.
    You could always show they have by providing unequivocal proof, rather than spouting hearsay, innuendo, ad hominem fallacies and unevidenced claims taken from antivax propaganda websites.

  • chelation is HORRIBLE and deadly. Do not ever promote that here.

  • I bet you believe everything Glenn Beck says too

  • Fascinating that should say that since we haven’t even launched yet. Have you accessed my computer somehow?

  • shay simmons

    Good for Exley for admitting that they were using their judgement and not controls.

  • Mike Stevens

    Well, why don’t you spend your life looking after a child with a mental age of 2 from severe measles encephalitis.

    And since vaccines don’t cause autism, why do you even raise that option?

  • “Which states require the flu shot?”

    I did not say that states require the flu shot. Where did you get the idea that I did?

    My post above shows that flu vaccine coverage from 6 months through 17 years is 59% (CDC citation).

    That means kids and pregnant mothers are getting Thimerosal.

  • that’s FACT BASED science right there!

  • Or maybe just have a dead child from Rotavirus, Rubella, etc. Anti-vaxxers would rather a child be dead than have autism. Autism is not to be feared and they perpetuate the problem

  • Mike Stevens

    How much does Merck pay you?
    You have to be on their payroll… specifically deployed to make antivaxers appear even stupider than they are.

  • I got the shot last year – and as far as I know – I still don’t have autism 🙂

  • Dan Bland

    So are you saying the whistle blower lied? Why would he lie? There was no reason for him to lie. Why would the CDC lie? Because the vaccine industry vaccinates hundreds of millions of kids, worldwide, every year that rolls around. That’s more money than any of us here can imagine. The CDC holds patents on vaccines. Can you say, “conflict of interest”? Research the names I mentioned. William Thompson, Verstraeten, Poul Thorsen and then add CDC. You’ll get all the proof you need. YOUR CDC is a propagand website.

  • nemtim


  • Still waiting on your VAERS number

  • Mike Stevens

    …You and Sharyl Atkisson both.

  • Mike Stevens

    Which vaccines does the CDC have patents on?

  • Dan Bland

    The CDC has been caught lying twice. First with the Verstraeten study. Then with the William Thompson whistle blower incident. Most of their research concluding vaccines DO NOT cause autism was conducted by Poul Thorsen who had to flee the country because of fraud.

  • Mike Stevens

    I asked for unequivocal proof, remember?
    …You respond by asking me to google for it?

  • Funny the guy that says it does cause autism used 12 kids and lost his license to practice medicine.

  • Dan Bland
  • I’m not lying. I only deleted one comment

  • Mike Stevens

    Explain how they lied.

    Verstraeten was a preliminary study; when the results were in from the more extensive studies, no link could be demonstrated between neurological deficits and vaccinations.
    …Or do you believe small pilot studies rather than larger definitive studies?

    Thompson’s data were reanalysed by Hooker. Hooker had to fudge the stats to magic up even a hint of a link between MMR vaccines and autism, and that was only in afroamerican males. The paper was retracted.

  • Dan Bland

    Don’t hold your breath

  • Well if you don’t have one – then stop saying you have a child with a vaccine injury.

  • shay simmons
  • Mike Stevens

    YouTube is not scientific proof. Try again.

  • He probably believes Hilary trafficks kids too. And that Glenn Beck is the word

  • Mike Stevens

    Insulting and disparaging other commenters is a surefire way to get posts deleted, Dan.

  • Raging Bee

    That has absolutely nothing at all to do with what actually causes autism. Your comment proves that your hatred of vaccines is purely emotional: you’re upset and frustrated that your child is autistic, and like most frustrated people, you look for someone/something to blame for your troubles. And some manipulative con-artists just happened along to give you one: vaccines. Oh well, I guess that’s better than blaming the Joos…not that that’s saying much…

  • Raging Bee

    Looks like lots of us “dare” argue with you. Your point…?

  • Which is again – why Autistics are in such DANGER from society. Until we accept them and promote their differences – this crap will continue. Parents need to accept their kids – no matter how they come into the world.

  • Yep!

  • Dan Bland

    I just called in some reinforcements. I really don’t need help but since I’m outnumbered….

  • Anyone that comes must read the community guidelines.

  • Dan Bland

    At least I posted something. What have you posted. Did you watch the video. No.

  • Patheos is deleting comments.

  • Then it’s Patheos.

  • I am the only moderator of this page – however, Patheos and editors have access. So I cannot control what they delete.

  • “Anti-vaccination groups love to talk about an ingredient in the MMR vaccination called Thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative that prevented contamination of vaccines. ”

    Are you going to correct your article? Thimerosal has never been in the MMR since it is a live viral vaccine.

  • corrected

  • Gee Dan, I can’t understand why I used the phrase “conspiracy theory”.
    Dan Bland conspiratorially whispered, “William Thompson is a whistle blower who still works for the CDC but he has been silenced.”
    – Been silenced by whom? The NWO Aluminutty? Shape-shifting aliens? Big pHARMa which runs the world?
    Glancing over his shoulder, Dan continued, “Robert Kennedy, Jr. subpoenaed Thompson…”
    – Yes, that dishonest crackpot did. That was a private tort and Thompson’s testimony would have had no relation to the issues of that suit. RFK, Jr. knew he would be refused (or should have known if he isn’t a complete moron) but he sure played up his false event, didn’t he?
    Lowering his voice even more, Dan mumbled, “Thompson admitted to another scientist who has an autistic child…”
    – That would be Brian Hooker who had a case pending before the NVICP for his own son which was denied because his own pediatrician had recorded developmental problems well before the child received the vaccines Hooker contended caused his autism. Hooker knew this and yet filed a claim that the vaccines caused his boy’s autism.
    What is it when you file a claim knowing it is false? Rhymes with Maud…

    And this is the Brian Hooker who “reanalyzed” the data Thompson was concerned with and had his paper promptly retracted for idiocy and not revealing his conflicts of interest. BTW – His “results” directly refute the autism scam of his buddy, Andrew Wakefraud.
    Dan continued his litany of dishonest anti-vaccine talking points, “Another case in point is the Vertraetten study in which, again, the statistics proved that vaccines cause autism but the CDC covered up that one too.”
    – Verstraeten proved no such thing. Nor did the CDC “cover up that one too”. Those are easily demonstrated anti-vaccine lies.
    Read this if you aren’t a fanatical death cultist:
    Verstraeten presented the raw data from Phase I of his study at the conference and the discussion around them was recorded and discussed at the June 2000 ACIP meeting as well as made available by the CDC.
    Upon completing Phase II of the study there was no association of vaccines to autism.
    The anti-vaccine death cult liars have had this explained to them numerous times yet they continue to lie about it and spread disinformation about vaccines… I guess in a twisted/inverted world of “[dis]informed consent.”
    You can talk about Thorsen if you want to continue the beating… and the laughing ridicule.

  • Raging Bee

    This is a grownup conversation. Take your fantasy/roleplaying schtick somewhere else.

  • Raging Bee

    Yeah, if he’s venting about it here, in such unhinged terms, I hesitate to think how he’s treating his autistic child (if any)…

  • Mike Stevens

    You made a claim.
    The burden of proof lies with you to verify that claim, not with me to disprove it.

  • Dan Bland

    Raging bee just insulted me. Has she read your guidelines?

  • Mike Stevens

    Do you want me to post a video of someone claiming they were abducted by aliens?
    Is that the level of proof you expect?

  • Dan Bland

    Have you read the guidelines here?

  • He’s certainly not accepting his child. I love my little boy!

  • I still see the following in the first paragraph and I have cleared my cache:

    “Anti-vaccination groups love to talk about an ingredient in the MMR vaccination called Thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative that prevented contamination of vaccines. “

  • OMG Vaxxed – come on. That movie is HORRID

  • Mike Stevens

    Is your claim that infants have greater thimerosal exposure through vaccines today than they did 18 years ago?
    Because it sounds pretty much like you are…

  • Dan Bland

    Let everyone make their own decision. Thank you.

  • Spamming for Andrew Wakefraud’s product?
    (sarc)How much is he paying you to spam for him?(/sarc)
    Reported as VaXxed spam.

  • The Cache on our site does not update automatically

  • deleted

  • Mike Stevens

    “kids and pregnant mothers are getting Thimerosal.”
    80% of flu vaccines are thimerosal free, and the vast majority of flu vaccine use is in the elderly.
    Flu vaccines given in pregnancy are nearly always the thimerosal free versions.

    The thimerosal exposure to infants is a mere fraction of what it was 18 years ago, even if your claims were true.
    So how does this inconvenient fact corroborate your silly idea that the increase in autism is due to thimerosal?
    Answer: it doesn’t.

  • as thimerosal levels have decreased – autism has increased…hmmmm

  • Mike Stevens

    “Latest research concludes high levels of aluminum in the brain tissue of deceased autistic individuals.”
    Nope, it didn’t. Exley et al used unvalidated assays to measure brain aluminium in a tiny number of autistic brains, got wildly varying results even within the same brains and he decided to uncritically accept them as valid.
    He didn’t even try and measure levels in nonautistic control brains.

    Result? …a useless study, rejected by mainstream science as completely invalid.

  • nemtim

    Already deleted my comment as well. For some weird reason, kept the stop deleting comment.

  • “the vast majority of flu vaccine use is in the elderly.”

    Maybe so but that’s not relevant when the coverage in the childhood population is, per the link I provide from the CDC site, 59%.

    “Flu vaccines given in pregnancy are nearly always the thimerosal free versions.”

    I have attempted to find data for this but have been unable to find any. Please cite your source for “Flu vaccines given in pregnancy are nearly always the thimerosal free versions.”

    All we know is that CA bans it but gets waivers. The rest of the country does not have any rules on that, to my knowledge.

    Here is the waiver from 2015:

  • Dan Bland

    My comments are getting deleted too. So is it wrong to ask people to watch a documentary?

  • nemtim

    My autistic child bites his hands and bangs his head and needs a helmet. Glad your autistic child is fun to be with.

  • They are being flagged and reported. Then picked up by my system as spam

  • I am not deleting your comments

  • Whatever are you babbling about?
    Show your calculation.
    “That means kids and pregnant mothers are getting Thimerosal.”
    Unevidenced assumption.
    … and not if the multi-dose are all used for the elderly and those in institutions. Then kids and pregnant mothers are not getting Thimerosal.
    So you’re delusionally contending that the vaccine Hg load is the same as it has been since the early 1990s even with the removal of Thimerosal containing vaccines?
    Behold the anti-vaccine fanatic. Impervious to facts.

  • I’m sorry you don’t love your child

  • Dan Bland

    So I can’t ask people to watch a documentary? Please answer this time,

  • Mike Stevens

    When 80% of available flu vaccine is thimerosal free, then assuming completely a random choice of vaccine you’d expect 80% of pregnant women who get flu vaccine to receive a thimerosal free version.
    We know from what staff Woking in primary care and obgyn say that they try to proactively use thimerosal free vaccine, so the probability is that over 80% will not get it.
    That’s a “vast majority”, even in your antivax book.

    You still haven’t explained why you think thimerosal causes autism, when autism went up as thimerosal virtually disappeared from vaccines.

  • Actually, I just found some other states that ban mercury for certain groups:

    A total of six states, including CA. However, some of these states have a cutoff of just 3 years old.

    Thus, there are no regulations in place for the majority of the country, or the remaining 44 states and territories.

  • The comment was filtered through disqus as spam – set up via Patheos. Sorry dude

  • Where did you get the 80% number?

  • He has measurements for many brains. See my comment below.

    Also, a more thorough comparison is located here:

  • Mike Stevens

    …You talking to aangel?
    You should be.

  • Ok, you have no source for your assertion. Got it.

  • Mike Stevens

    There’s no mercury to be synergistic with.

  • Dan Bland

    There is a documentary that explains how the CDC is lying about vaccines causing autism but I can’t tell you what it is or the admin here will delete my post.

  • https://www(dot)cdc(dot)gov/flu/about/qa/vaxsupply(dot)htm
    2017-2018 Influenza Vaccine Supply:
    Vaccine manufacturers originally projected that as many as 151 million to 166 million doses of injectable flu vaccine (i.e., inactivated and recombinant flu vaccines) would be made available for the 2017-2018 season.

    Approximately 130 million doses of thimerosal-free or preservative-free influenza vaccine will be produced for the 2017-2018 flu season.
    130/166 = 0.783 = 78.3%
    130/151 = 0.861 = 86.1%
    mean = 82.2%
    See? This is how you show your calculations. Please show your calculations as I’ve asked above and you have studiously ignored.

  • shay simmons

    Your attempt to send me to the VaccinePapers site is a tell, I’m afraid.

    For other problems with the study (including COIs and an expedited review process) see my reply to WACB.

  • Incorrect. Multi-dose flu vaccines may contain 25µg of Thimerosal and we have established that the majority of the country does not have regulations prohibiting their use with pregnant women or children. Thimerosal is ~50% ethyl mercury by weight, which dissociates in the body after injection.

    If the vial is not shaken properly and the syringe is drawn from the very bottom the dose may be higher.

  • Mike Stevens

    …That is not a documentary, but rank, fictional antivaccine propaganda generated by a disgraced doctor struck from the medical register for dishonesty, gross professional misconduct and scientific fraud.

  • ***** Playing eerie theremin music *****

  • Mike Stevens

    So most shots, even if from a multiuse vial (and only 20% of flu vaccines are multidose) will have less than 25mcg?

  • People mark comments they don’t like as spam. If this happens enough they are automatically removed by the system.

    It’s a way to censor speech by others on the forum without involving the moderators. It’s a known technique; happened to me just a few days back on a different forum. The moderators told me that someone else flagged the comment as spam, they had nothing to do with it.

  • aangel keeps dancing around the uncomfortable fact that Thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines yet the autism rate didn’t plummet… instead it went up.
    Now that’s commitment to the anti-vaccine cult’s dogma.

  • Mike Stevens

    Reality provided the source. Go read it.

  • If the vial is well shaken, each dose will have 25µg.

    You have said that 80% of the shots are single dose but you have not backed that number up with a citation.

    Please cite your source.

  • Yep – it happens. and they are filtered out and we don’t see them.

  • Shoshana

    Only 0.01-0.03 percent of aluminum from the environment (including breast milk) is bioavailable. 100 percent is bioavailable from vaccines. The tiny amount of aluminum that is bioavailable from ingestion is water soluble and leaves the body via the kidneys. The pharmacokinetics from nanoparticles in vaccines are completely different. Aluminum from vaccines are not stored in blood. They are preferentially taken up by macrophages, travel primarily through lymph and are deposited in the tissues and organs of the body (again, not blood), including the spleen and brain. Can you correct that part?

  • I’m not sure why we are perseverating on Flu shots as not all children get them. Let’s please move on to another topic

  • Dan Bland

    Apparently all you know about Wakefield is what you’ve learned from the media. He was one of the very best GI surgeons in the UK and was approached by parents of autistic children who also had GI tract problems and they asked for his help. He never said there was a vaccine/autism connection but did suggest that it should be studied further.

  • He wrote a report on it….

  • Dan Bland

    Yes he did. What’s your problem.

  • Dan Bland

    The Lancet eventually exonerated Wakefield after his career was destroyed.

  • Brian

    There’s also documentaries explaining how the earth is flat or how the holocaust never happened. Only the most gullible and ignorant people believe them, just like how only gullible people believe the nonsense in “Vaxxed”.

  • Brian

    Nope. That’s another lie.

  • Oh and that climate change isn’t real. Or dinosaurs are fake

  • shay simmons

    Could you post a link to the Lancet’s exoneration of Wakefield?

  • Sheesh.
    aangel drooled, “If the vial is well shaken, each dose will have 25µg.”
    And if it isn’t well shaken?
    Do you know the definition of soluble?
    Is it different in your universe than in this?
    Solubility of Thimerosal: 1 gram/ml = 1,000,000 µg/ml = 500,000 µg per 0.50 ml.
    The flu vaccine has 100 µg/ml = 50 µg per 0.50 ml. dose.
    Since the solubility of Thimerosal is 1,000,000 µg/ml and the conc. in the vaccine is 100 µg/ml, which is 1/10,000th of the solubility limit, how could it segregate and require shaking?

    Vaccines need to be shaken, but not because the Thimerosal separates.
    Maybe you can do some research and tell the class why some vaccines need to be shaken, aangel.

  • shay simmons

    The problem with your request is that anti-vaxxers do love to talk about thimerosal in the MMR, Robert Kennedy being a prime example. I see that someone finally convinced him that he was making himself look exceptionally stupid, so he stopped.

    It’s like the “injected directly into the bloodstream” claim – a good sign that the individual making the statement doesn’t know what they are talking about.

  • Anat

    As the OP stated, there is nothing problematic with injecting aluminum at the levels that are in vaccines. It is the dose that makes the poison. Pretty much everything is toxic at a high enough dose.

  • shay simmons
  • I have to look up the calcs but it’s about the following:

    Up to age 6:

    151µg / 25µg = ~6 shots
    Other vaccines have so-called “trace amounts” (for instance, DTaP at 0.3µg) which makes up the rest.

    Maximum Thimerosal exposure in 1999 by age 6:

    The year 1999 had 10-Hg containing shots in the schedule, which injected a whopping 250µg.

    151.5/250 = 60.1%

    Add one or two pre-natal shots (if the pregnancy spans two flu seasons) and some amount gets to the fetus—but I’m not including that above.

    So children who get the shot every year (59%) and who don’t have a parent who asks for mercury-free shots (no one is telling them to) and who have silly medical personnel who think injecting Hg into children is just fine are still getting a lot of Hg.

  • More spam.

  • I feel like many of the people screaming the loudest know the least about medicine

  • and most kids that are age 7 – aren’t getting a dx of ASD. This argument about Thimerosal is RIDICULOUS

  • thank you!

  • Show me where RFK Jr. says the MMR has Thimerosal in it. You are making that up.

  • Dan Bland

    So, when I say there is a Medical Textbook about vaccines and Autoimmune diseases it gets deleted?

  • do you prefer dead children over vaccinated children?

  • Dan Bland

    Show me proof supporting your statement. Be careful they’ll delete your comment when you show proof.

  • I’ve seen zero proof. A ridiculous documentary that shows so factual evidence – is not proof

  • VaXxed is a product created and manufactured by Andrew Wakefield.
    It is sold for $$ to the gullible unlike the info from the FDA, CDC, etc. which is free.
    Therefore, you are spamming a product for the monetary benefit of Andrew Wakefraud.
    Why don’t you try something novel?
    Try putting your ideas into your own words and if you want to provide references then link to the reference that evidences your statement(s).
    That’s how non-spammers and non-fanatics roll…

    Merely saying “Try this product” doesn’t add to the conversation and is spam.
    Saying “XYZ is the cause of Zombies because this, that, and another thing. Going further, Zombies may also be caused by ABC due to blah, blah, blah. My evidence is www goodsite dot com. And if you are really interested in a more detailed investigation of Zombies take a look at this book/film/product that you have to pay for.”
    Using some product as a defense of your position without explaining what that defense is… is spamming.

  • Dan Bland

    I was talking to Anat.

  • factual = counter factual

  • Dan Bland

    Explain to me why the documentary is ridiculous.

  • Reality022 already explained

  • Try discussing rather than just stating – buy/use this product without a reason why anyone should do such a thing.
    You are essentially posting bare links which is universally deemed spam.
    Tell us in your own words why someone should view those books/vids… and not just “because they’re good anti-vax propaganda”.
    Discuss something rather than merely linking to products… that’s what a discussion board is for… or don’t you have any thoughts of your own?

  • Dan Bland

    The documentary is about a whistle blower CDC scientist who has admitted that he and his coauthors destroyed data
    proving vaccines cause autism. He later became highly remorseful and started calling another scientist with an autistic child and admitted to him in detail what he and his coauthors did. The scientist started recording the phone calls and those recordings are part of the documentary.

  • Do you have any evidence for your statements that isn’t filtered through the greedy paws of the proven scientific fraud and liar Andrew Wakefield? If all you have is VaXxed then all you have is essentially a lying liar lying again.
    You may as well recommend a book on investing by Bernie Madoff.

  • Dan Bland

    The textbook is mostly research by a Dr. Schoefeld and others. Dr. Schoefeld has had a long career studying autoimmune diseases and now is certain that the adjuvants in vaccines cause autoimmune diseases.

  • Dan Bland

    The documentary is not about Dr. Wakefield. It is about William Thompson a CDC whistle blower.

  • it’s Dr. Wakefields production – a known liar

  • Dan Bland

    Since you know nothing about the documentary why don’t you watch it or are you so close minded that a ton of evidence would still not change your mind.

  • Dan Bland

    In your opinion.

  • I’ve watched the documentary. It’s a joke

  • Dan Bland

    I watched it and didn’t laugh. The autism epidemic is a very serious matter. the epidemic continues to grow and closed minded people such as those commenting here on this article are complicit in this ever growing disaster.

  • You mean Shoenfeld the crackpot who invented ASIA syndrome which nobody else in science/medicine endorses, beyond a few of his fellow crackpots?
    You mean Yehuda Shoenfeld with retracted papers due to shoddy science?
    You mean this Yehuda Shoenfeld?:
    HPV – mouse “study”:
    Lupus and vaccines “study”:
    Yep, that’s what the anti-vaccine cult calls an “expert”. We call him ‘Mr. Retraction’ along with Chris ‘I get my funding from anti-vaccine fanatics’ Shaw.

  • it’s not a disaster. I’m a mother of an autistic boy. Not sure why you keep ignoring that factor. Autism is not an epidemic. It’s a neuro-difference that can be treated with therapy. It’s not a death sentence. Yes, there are challenges, but all kids are challenging. We don’t get to pick perfect kids. The more we stop resisting autism and instead embrace it – the less of this crap I’ll have to deal with

  • No, it doesn’t sound like that at all.

    I said it’s about 60% of its 1999 peak, which I clearly state above.

  • reality022 you are my new favorite commenter – please come back to my other posts 🙂

  • I’ve watched that trash and can quote from it quite extensively. Can you?
    Did you notice how Brian Hooker is presented as having a ‘vaccine injured boy (autism)’ when the VICP had already rejected his claim partly because his boy showed developmental delays, as recorded by his pediatrician, going back to his 6 month well-child visit? His own pediatrician refuted his claim and yet he is on VaXxed lying up a storm about his boy.
    That’s the type of “expert” that is presented in VaXxed.
    It is merely a video screed attempting to rehabilitate Wakefraud’s reputation through more Wakefraud lies. It is a giant lie written, produced, directed, and starring a liar.

  • There is no “autism epidemic”. There is merely an “epidemic” of “autism awareness” that hasn’t existed previously.

    Edited to add: And a bunch of grifters who want the government to pay for their kid’s bad skin, allergies, asthma, crooked teeth (I kid you not!), etc.

  • most children with ASD show early signs of delay that parents refuse to see. THen the greatest period of regression comes at 18 months. When the brain can no longer keep up with the demands of the growth and development. Which is why early intervention is SO important

  • and better diagnostic testing to find delays – which get children services. Which improve outcomes.

  • Raging Bee

    Yes, and your name isn’t above them.

  • Correct… the legendary “autism cures” the anti-vaxxers are always on about which aren’t “cures” but merely helping the child develop to their fullest.
    I’d like them to explain how they are going to “cure” what used to be called “retardation” with bleach enemas, chelation, gluten-free diets and expensive supplements.

  • their entire culture is abusive and destructive to children with ASD. Kid are poisoned with bleach and given horrible chelation toxins to strip their brains of toxins –

  • Kira Wadman

    And no one died, and those who contracted measles recovered perfectly and now have permanent real immunity. Vaccines don’t do that.

  • Raging Bee

    And her opinion is more grounded in fact, and more credible, than yours.

  • Kira Wadman

    What likely also runs in your family is the MTHFR gene mutation.

  • Raging Bee

    You were ta.king to all of us, and all of us get to respond to your bullshit.

  • Do you know all the people that were infected? oh right. You don’t

  • Brian

    Nope. The facts were presented and Wakefraud is a demonstrated liar. That’s why he was banned from practicing medicine ever again and why his paper was retracted. He’s a known con man.

  • nope

  • Kira Wadman

    Excellent, thank you. Aluminum is second only to Mercury in toxicity, and it is in most vaccines, in alarming levels.

  • Nope. Wrong. not in alarming levels

  • Raging Bee

    “Teach the Controversy?” Sorry, we don’t do that here, just like we don’t let flat-earthers pretend their nonsense is still worth our time.

  • Kira Wadman

    That is a reprehensible thing to say, and sums up your ignorant comments. That patent is dealing with the Autistic reality of MANY parents.

  • Kira Wadman

    There is ZERO science showing that ANY mercury is safe. ZERO.

  • Take your ableist attitude and please leave

  • Kira Wadman

    Thank God.

  • Raging Bee

    The guy who insults everyone who disagrees with him is crying about insults? Go to bed, you’re out of your depth here.

  • I provided them.

  • Kira Wadman

    Aluminum. In most childhood vaccines. Aluminum doesn’t belong in our bodies.

  • aluminum is in breastmilk

  • Kira Wadman

    That is a fact, not an attitude.

  • Brian

    You actually don’t know that no one died. SSPE is a delayed but universally fatal complication of measles. Hopefully no one will die, but it will still be a few years before we know that for sure.

  • You have your facts incorrect.

  • It is?
    For how many minutes does William Thompson appear in this “documentary” about William Thompson?
    He’s alive and still working and, therefore, available for interviews/commentary.
    For how many minutes does Thompson appear in this fraudumentary, Dan?
    Hint – A big fat 0 seconds – that’s how long.
    Pretty strange for a documentary about somebody to not have the living subject appear, wouldn’t you say, Dan?
    I wonder why that is?
    (Preparing for Dan’s explanation which is merely an extended delusional, wacky konspiracee theory.)
    Tell us all again how it isn’t an Andrew Wakefraud acolyte recruitment and rehabilitaion vehicle.

  • Brian

    How do we know Vaxxed is a fraud? There are many reasons. Here are a few.

    (1) Brian Hooker’s paper, upon which the film’s main claim is based, was retracted as fraudulent. He did the math wrong (among other things), and when the math was corrected, any association between vaccines and autism disappeared. Despite this retraction taking place over a year before the film was released, the film still uses the retracted, “wrong math” results. This alone is proof the film is a fraud.

    (2) The film is directed by a discredited scam artist, who is pushing the same hoax he tried to enrich himself with 20 years ago (and unfortunately, it worked). In this way the film is more like a “Nigerian Prince email scam”.

    (3) Hooker’s autism story was exposed as false through his VICP rejection. In other words, he fabricated his own son’s medical history (lied) in order to make money off his movie.

    (4) When the film was first premiered, was it shown to scientists, doctors, or even watchdog groups? Not at all. It’s target audience was a bunch of holocaust deniers and alien abductees aboard the “Conspira-sea Cruise”

    (5) All of the supposedly incriminating documents (discussed in the film) were released to the public in January 2016. Not only did they not contain what Wakefield et al. claimed, they actually contradicted some of the claims.

    (6) The “whistleblower” himself refutes many of the claims, such as the one where the CDC supposedly destroyed data to cover up a vaccine-autism link. (No they didn’t)
    “All the associated MMR-Autism Study computer files have been retained on the Immunization Safety Office computer servers since the inception of the study and they continue to reside there today.” – William Thompson

    Now you know. If you want more examples, feel free to ask.

  • Brian

    Who told you that? That isn’t even remotely true. (There’s aluminum in breast milk)

  • Brian

    That actually contradicts the most basic rule of toxicity. There is always a safe amount, and there is always an unsafe amount. The amounts differ for different substances, but even water is toxic if you drink too much of it.

  • Sure. Weren’t you the one who said there is no more Hg in pediatric vaccines? Happy to keep educating you.

    “Although Thimerosal is fully soluble in water; it is not stable, as can be seen by a patent¹ filed by its’ inventor Morris Kharasch which details its’ spontaneous disassociation into ethylmercury and dithiocarboxyphenol in solution.

    It is a well-known fact that ethylmercury has a great affinity for the cysteine side-chains of proteins², and this is what is responsible for Thimerosal losing its’ bacteriostatic effect over time³. Egg-ovalbumin is present in flu vaccines as residual artifact⁴ from the culturing process⁵.

    We also know from the package insert⁴ that the flu vaccine is a “slightly opalescent suspension with some sediment” indicating that the egg protein sinks to the bottom. It is highly reasonable to conclude that the ovalbumin in the flu vaccine has a good amount of ethymercury bound to its’ cysteine groups, and that this increases with storage time³.”

  • Anat

    The main reason for rise of autism diagnoses is changing diagnostic criteria and greater awareness. Also possibly increased parental age. See

    There are also many misdiagnoses (also related to changing criteria) – according to a specialist in the autism field (spoke to my husband at work), about half of the children she sees whose diagnoses were made by school psychologists and others who are not specialists in the field of autism turn out to be not of actually autistic children but children suffering from anxiety. When the anxiety in these children is treated autistic-like symptoms go away. My son falls into this category. He had a diagnosis of autism by a school psychologist. By 9th grade he existed special education and is now doing great in college.

    There might also be a connection to metabolic conditions, either prenatal or in infants.

  • Brian

    “Whopping” amounts… measured in micrograms! I think you’re trying to sound scary, but for those of us who understand basic math, your claims fall flat.

    I’d challenge you to start measuring everything else in micrograms.

    For example, I had an IV when I was sick and got a “whopping” 1,000,000,000 micrograms of fluid injected directly into my bloodstream!

  • “do you prefer dead children over vaccinated children?”

    Now who is doing the fear mongering? Let’s look at the United States but the same is true in the UK, Canada and Australia if you look at their data.

    In “Trends in Infectious Disease Mortality in the United States During the 20th Century,” Armstrong, JAMA, 1999

    we see the attached graph. On the right I have put the date when each vaccine was first introduced (from Infectious Disease Epidemiology, Nelson, Jones & Bartlett Learning, 2014).

    You can see that the mortality for the diseases had declined between 91% to 99% depending on the disease *before we began using the vaccines.*

    In “Annual Summary of Vital Statistics: Trends in the Health of Americans During the 20th Century,” Guyer, Pediatrics, 2000

    we see this point underscored:

    “again, nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available.”

    In fact, the mortality rate was still going down when the vaccines were introduced so we will never know where it would have ended up without vaccines.

    What caused this decline? Clean water (sanitation), refrigeration (to make fresh, nutritious food available), reduced overcrowding and other non-medical measures.

    The first thing we have to correct is the widespread notion that developed nations are using vaccines to reduce mortality. They are not. They are using vaccines to reduce morbidity (sequelae from infectious disease).

    This is why I don’t rush to agree with the notion that vaccines have saved millions of lives. They have saved some lives but it is the plumbers and civil engineers who get to take the credit for most lives saved, not the vaccine inventors.

  • sanitation alone does not impact outbreaks. Man – you have all your talking points today

  • Brian

    Awesome that you at least admit that vaccines have saved “some lives”.

    Of course clean water, etc., had a lot to do with improved mortality, but to deny the role of vaccines in preventing the deaths that sanitation etc., never could… is what makes an anti-vaxxer an anti-vaxxer.

  • Brian

    Irrelevant, because vaccines don’t cause autism.

  • You brought up mortality—not me. (“do you prefer dead children over vaccinated children?”)

    Mortality was not significantly impacted by vaccination in developed countries. Morbidity was but not mortality.

    This is crystal clear with both the articles I cited especially with this quote:

    “again, nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available.”

  • That textbook is not use in any medical schools, anywhere. Did you link to where one can by the book? It likely got flagged as pam.

  • when then do 215,000 kiddos die of rotavirus a year?

  • Brian

    The recent rush of the anti-vax crowd convinced me to dust off the anti-vaccine translator, to help rational people understand some of the comments on these threads.

    #1 “There’s never been a study about _____”
    It really means:
    “There’s been tons of studies, but none that confirm my way of thinking”

    #2 “Vaccines are full of toxic chemicals” = “I have completely forgotten high school chemistry”

    #3 “I’m not anti-vaccine, but…” = “I’m certainly anti-vaccine, and the next words I say will prove it”

    #4 “Herd immunity is a myth” = “If I don’t understand something, then it must not exist”

    #5 “Vaccines didn’t eliminate disease” = “I don’t know how to read a chart”

    #6 “Unvaccinated children are healthier” = “Studies repeatedly show that unvaccinated children are more likely to catch infectious diseases, but anti-vaccine parents think unvaccinated children are healthier.”

    #7 “Where there is a risk, there must be a choice” = “I am incapable of conducting a proper risk-benefit analysis”

    #8 “VAERS proves ______” = “I don’t know the meaning of the term “adverse event””

    #9 “My child is vaccine-injured” = “My child has autism, which science has repeatedly shown isn’t caused by vaccines, but I don’t want people to know I’m a liar.”

    #10 “It’s not about vaccines, it’s about parental choice” = “I don’t want people to know my true motives”

    #11 “The science is corrupt and can’t be trusted” = “A quack doctor who makes money by deceiving gullible people told me that the science is corrupt and can’t be trusted”

    #12 “#CDCWhistleblower” = “Facts will never convince me this conspiracy isn’t real”

    #13 “I’ve done hundreds of hours of research” = “I’ve done zero hours of research, and never once worked in a research laboratory, but I stayed up all night reading conspiracy blogs”

    #14 “Vaccine refusers are well-educated” = “I believe the best way to back up a false claim is by saying you’re smart”

    #15 “Watch this youtube video” = “I cannot discern between reality and nonsense”

    #16 “Vaccines are all made in China” = “I even lie about the little things, and am a little bit racist”

    #17 “Check out the vaccine insert” = “I don’t understand the vaccine insert, but it has scary-sounding words in it so I’ll assume it proves me right”

    #18 “Pro-vaxxers are bullies” = “I was asked to provide evidence to support my claims”

    #19 “It’s always good to ask questions” = “I won’t accept the answers”

    #20 “You’re a paid shill for big pHARMa!” = “I give up”

  • Not in developed countries, not even close.

    The data above are all for developed countries.

  • I watched Vaxxed. It is about an allegation that William Thompson destroyed data. But, he was never a whistleblower. He and Brian Hooker were having conversations about the study and Hooker recorded Thompson without permission. Hooker then got ahold of the data, you know the data that was never actually destroyed because it always lived at the Metro Atlanta Developmental Disabilities Study website, and did his own analysis of it. That was a every faulty analysis and it got retracted from publication quickly. Meantime, Hooker and Wakefield started to make a movie about it, using the illegally obtained recordings, which are likely highly edited. All the stories in the movie left out facts, like how they lost their vaccine injury court cases or they were dismissed for lack of evidence.

    There are not facts in Vaxxed.

  • There is no epidemic. There is widening of the autism spectrum and shift in diagnosis. I have an autistic child.

  • Thompson never blew any whistles. Wakefield and Hooker did. Thompson still works for CDC. The movie is part of Wakefield’s attempt at redeeming himself.

  • I have watched Vaxxed and Pathological Optimist and read Andy’s book, Callous Disregard. He was not one of the best GI surgeons in UK. He was a mediocre practicing gastro doc who got grandeurs of glory and got greedy.

  • hahahaha, that’s cute. You are not even trying to verify your claims at all. Seriously, before you make a claim, try to verify it.

  • I think you are thinking that because John Walker-Smith won his appeal to the high court and got his medical license back, because he blamed Andy Wakefield for all the misdeeds, that that means Wakefield was exonerated. Nope. The Lancet study is still retracted. Wakefield still has no medical license.

  • “How many times has the CDC lied about the vaccine autism Connections?”


  • “aangel keeps dancing around the uncomfortable fact that Thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines yet the autism rate didn’t plummet… instead it went up.”

    Exactly. Not only did the amount of Thimerosal not go down significantly for a good portion of kids getting the flu shot, an additional dozen shots containing aluminum were added to the schedule.

    The toxic load of children just keeps going up over time.

  • “aluminum is in breastmilk”

    And 99.7% of it is excreted via the kidneys because the digestive system is designed to do that.

    100% of the aluminum in vaccines gets past the dermal layer AND bypasses the digestive system because it is injected.

  • Thorson stole money. He should be arrested. But, his theft did not affect any autism study data.

  • Brian

    How cute!

    aangel admits to changing his story from thimerosal causes autism to aluminum (what will it be next?)

    It doesn’t change the fact that vaccines still don’t cause autism, as the unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate.

  • What is the difference between a metal and a salt? Do you know?

  • I take care of one daily. She is not severely disabled, so it is not hard.

  • You are on a roll. Keep up your note cards. Still not buying any of your data

  • oh snap

  • In USA, we used to diagnose 3% of children as mentally retarded. We no longer use that diagnosis. For similar behaviors, children are diagnosed either autism spectrum or intellectual disability. Further, the autism spectrum is very wide and includes people who are not cognitively disabled and who would have been called odd or weird, in past generations. Or nerdy. 1.5% of American school children receive special ed services for ASD and 1% for ID. Therefore, there are LESS seriously cognitively disabled children now.

    There is no autism epidemic.

  • I watched it with anger because I know the facts. The lies they all told were astounding and made me angry and sad for their own children and those who fall for these stories.

  • You are my new favorite!

  • Brian

    Love it!

  • So it is all from flu shots.
    And assumes the child got a flu shot every year.
    And assumes 100% of the flu shots contained Thimerosal.
    And represents intake over the course of 5 years.
    … Yeah, your an honest broker and not a dishonest anti-vaccine zealot fear mongering in order to convince young parents to endanger their children by not having them vaccinated. (/sarc)
    You don’t know if any of your assumptions are even close to reality and you don’t care, do you?
    I’ll bet you’re a big fan of Chris “Ecological Fallacy” Shaw who presents idiotic hypotheses as fact just because it could happen, even if the odds of it happening IRL are near 0, and who also doesn’t feel the need to dig deeper and find out the important details of his assumptions. But he’s being paid by the anti-vaxxers to be stupid…
    Considering the facts that –
    Vaccines containing Thimerosal are not recommended for children
    And that 80% of flu vaccine did not contain Thimerosal
    And that Thimerosal has been shown to not be associated with autism or other developmental/neurological conditions
    It is pretty clear how much folks should depend on you to provide accurate information.
    And you are going to run a vaccine education program… That’s like Ken Ham running an evolution education program.
    Why do anti-vaccine cultists constantly lie?

  • Brian

    Measles morbidity and mortality plummeted over 90%, permanently, within only a decade of the vaccine being licensed.

    Thanks vaccines, for doing what sanitation and nutrition never could!

  • “But, he was never a whistleblower.”

    So Thompson didn’t issue these words through Rep. Posey?

    “I was involved in deceiving millions of tax
 payers regarding the potential negative 
side effects of vaccines. 
I regret what I did.”

    Funny, I could have sworn that he did.

    “the illegally obtained recordings”

    The recordings took place when Hooker traveled to Oregon, which is a one-party state. They are 100% legal.

  • “He’s alive and still working and, therefore, available for interviews/commentary.”

    No he is not, if he wants to get his pension and not be sued by the government.

    He was called as a witness to a recent court case and the CDC director rejected the request, which he can do.

  • Liar

  • There is a funny thing about facts, it doesn’t matter if you believe them or not.

    The mortality data are straight from articles in JAMA and Pediatrics.

    You can choose not to believe them but you would look very foolish.

  • Ah yes. The lunatic “vaccines didn’t save us” gambit promoted by Suzy Humpries, etc.
    Only one problem… for the vaccine preventable diseases they did save us:
    During 2000-2016, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 20.4 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.

    Before the introduction of measles vaccine in 1963 and widespread vaccination, major epidemics occurred approximately every 2–3 years and measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.

    How about smallpox, aangel? It only killed 100+ million last century.
    How many cases now that it’s been eradicated off the face of the globe through vaccination?
    (Waiting for aangel to start delusionally babbling that smallpox vaccine didn’t eradicate smallpox… it just threw its hand up and gave or it was eradicated by clean water and hygiene as found in India and sub Sahara Africa… or that it wasn’t eradicated and was merely renamed monkeypox or wombatpox or some other lunacy.)
    How about polio?
    Just about globally wiped out through vaccination.
    You may start your delusional babbling about how vaccines didn’t stop polio it was clean water and hygiene in places like India and sub Sahara Africa that wiped it out… or, if you are really insane you can tell us that it was just renamed…
    Once again we can ask:
    Why do anti-vaccine cultists constantly lie?

  • You said they was no Thimerosal any longer in pediatric vaccines. Wrong.

    You said that flu shots with Hg aren’t given to children. Wrong. Only six states have regulations on that.

    Not only are kids still getting it, pregnant mothers are getting it.

    I compared the cumulative dose of vaccines over five years for 1999 and now, so the comparison is accurate because it uses the same time period.

    The flu shot coverage is 59%, per the CDC, so that means many parents are foolishly giving their kid flu shots every year. Unfortunately, the cumulative dose of Hg by age 18 is far worse.

    No lying. You just don’t know much about this topic. Happy to educate you, though.

  • Because they hate children with autism

  • shay simmons

    “And no one died.”

    SSPE doesn’t appear to be on your radar.

    “Vaccines don’t do that.”

    Vaccines don’t put 31% of the people who get them in the hospital, either.

  • More fear mongering using mortality data outside of developed countries. Here in the US the situation is very different, as I explained to WithoutACrystalBall. Why not use data that’s relevant to where we live instead of fear mongering?

    However, though it’s been a pleasure educating you all day I’m going to move to something else now.


  • They’re cultists just like the castrating Heaven Gate members.
    Their insanity is not apparent to them and they fanatically want other to join them in their insane castrated certainty of their beliefs.
    The leaders are just money grubbing snake-oil selling hucksters who don’t care if what they are doing results in children’s deaths.

  • In developing countries, vaccines have certainly saved lives. In developed countries, vaccines are part of public health efforts to reduce disease mortality AND morbidity. It is disengenuous to look only at mortality.

  • Correct.

  • I banned her

  • How do we know Thompson said any of that? Where is the evidence he verified that quote?

  • So, Hooker knew it was illegal to record someone without permission in California and crossed into Oregon to do it? He knowingly deceived Thompson? And you think that is a good thing? That says a lot about his character.

  • Whether you realize it or not, there is actually a whole world outside the USA, aangel. And the experiences of those nations/peoples show the “vaccines didn’t save us” anti-vaccine cult trope for the ignorant and dangerous lie that it is.
    Why do you not include the rest of the world? Disconfirming evidence makes you uncomfortable?
    How about that elimination of smallpox and polio from India, aangel?
    Was that done through clean water, hygiene and stainless steel bathrooms everywhere?
    Don’t let the facts get in the way of your cultish anti-vaccine dogma. “Lie like a rug if it promotes teh Troof!”, right, aangel?

  • Lol. Sure, a government employee is admitting to felony fraud under the False Claims Act ( and you think it shouldn’t get recorded.

    That says a lot about *your* character.

  • Raging Bee

    Upvoted with eye-rolling disgust.

  • Start with the statement read into Congress. It appears you are new to this topic:

    Then look at the timeline and all the documents, including his statement from his lawyer:

  • He is clearly only concerned with the US and developed nations – rather elitist in my opinion. The kids that die from vaccine preventable deaths matter. I only hope he nevers has a child with a disability. The child would be scarred for life

  • shay simmons

    Ah, well. Sometimes allowing people like her, aangel and Bland to put their ignorance on display serves a purpose.

    EDITED TO ADD: after further reading, I see why you banned her.

  • shay simmons

    Of course he doesn’t say that any longer. Pity he didn’t bother to do some basic level reading before he started making his claims about vaccines and mercury.

    Just four days after a correction confirmed that his story had misstated the levels of ethylmercury infants had received—it was actually “40 percent, not 187 times, greater than the EPA’s limit for daily exposure to methyl mercury”—Kennedy told MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough, “We are injecting our children with 400 times the amount of mercury that FDA or EPA considers safe.” Kennedy also said on-air that children were being given 24 vaccines and that each one of them had “this thimerosal, this mercury in them.”

  • You didn’t seem to understand the request so I will repeat it: show me where RFK Jr. says the MMR has Thimerosal in it.

  • shay simmons

    “Weren’t you the one who said there is no more Hg in pediatric vaccines?”

    There never was any Hg in pediatric vaccines. Hg =/= C9H9HgNaO2S

  • Brian


    That’s a funny version of history!
    No mention of how Hooker’s paper was retracted because he did the math wrong.

    No mention of how Thompson said no data was ever destroyed because all of the data was backed up on computers.

    No mention that all of the supposed incriminating documents given to Posey have all been reviewed for years now, and it turned out to be a big nothingburger.

    You anti-vaxxers just refuse to accept reality.

  • shay simmons

    Stop teasing them, boys.

  • If you’re going to grift the anti-vaxxers you’d better be able to move the goalposts on a moment’s notice.
    Being adept at rapidly changing the subject when your lies start to become apparent is very useful as well.
    aangel isn’t a professional grifter… yet, so he does make these mistakes. Once he gets his anti-vax “education” website going he will probably improve his sleaze-skills.
    Can’t have the students easily seeing the anti-vax lies being offered for the idiocy they are.
    One wonders if he’ll allow open comments on his site or if he’ll be a ruthless banner of anyone who doesn’t toe the anti-vax line.

  • Funny guy. Of course I’m referring to EtHg but you probably think you are just *so* clever now.

  • shay simmons

    Ah yes, Yehuda Shoenfeld, who has build a career on writing and lecturing about a condition no one else believes in.

    From Vaxopedia – “He claims to have discovered a novel vaccine-associated autoimmune disease – Autoimmune Syndrome Induced by Adjuvants (ASIA).”

    “t has helped him to become very well known among the modern anti-vaccine movement, a hero to some, who use his new vaccine-associated autoimmune diseases as a reason to scare parents away from vaccinating and protecting their kids.

    That’s despite the fact that ASIA has been rejected by the NVICP as a basis for vaccine injury and is dismissed by most medical experts.”

  • WhyMeLord

    I’m in my 70s born and raised in the deep south. I remember good friends who I played with this week and were not around the next. Summer when the beaches, pools amd movies were closed. My mother was involved in the allocation process for the vaccines. People use political pull and cash bribes to get their kids moved up the list.

    I wonder what the reaction would be if we had an Ebola Out Break in the USA and which politician and drug manufacture would be controlling the release.

  • shay simmons

    “The documentary is about a whistle blower CDC scientist who has admitted that he and his coauthors destroyed data
    proving vaccines cause autism.”

    If that was the case why is this data readily available to anyone who wants it? I can give you the link to the Dropbox account where two pro-science writers placed it.

    And why does this whistleblower scientist never appear in the documentary?

  • WhyMeLord

    Kids cannot be DXed with the condition at a young age some not until their teens. Correlation does not = causation.

  • shay simmons

    He was called as a witness (in a legal fishing expedition) by lawyers who clearly had not done their homework.The entire article is worth reading (I apologize for posting only excerpts). Please note bolded text.

    What did the CDC letter say about testimony from Dr. William Thompson?

    It proceeds in three parts. First, it explains to the lawyers the legal framework for requiring the testimony of officials of the Department of Health and Human Services in a civil case in which the United States government is not a party. The general rule- applied in all cases – is that usually officials don’t testify in their official capacity. The way the rules phrase it is that records and information are provided to private litigants in the same way they are given to the general public – and no more. This is codified in chapter 45 of the Code of Federal regulations, part 2, and it is based on two rationales: government impartiality – not treating litigants differently – and not disrupting the other duties these officials have to carry out.

    “The availability of Department employees to testify in litigation not involving federal parties is governed by the Department’s policy to maintain strict impartiality with respect to private litigants and to minimize the disruption of official duties.”

    As the letter explained, the Supreme Court upheld the authority of agencies to limit testimony by officials (United States ex rel. Touhy v. Ragen 340 U.S. 462 (1951)) and the CDC’s authority to refuse subpoenas specifically in Moore v. Armour Pharmaceuticals, 927 F.2d 1194 (11th circuit, 1991).

    To make a long story short, the courts acknowledge that agency officials have important duties, and civil litigation can disrupt them. The government’s disinclination to be part of such suit out of concern of appearing not to treat parties impartially is also reasonable.

    That said, a complete ban could prevent justice and even harm public policy. In consideration of that, the regulations contain a way to get officials to testify in appropriate cases. To do that, lawyers need to meet three conditions:

    Ask the agency head in writing.
    Explain why the information is not available by other means.
    Explain why the testimony is in the interest of the DHHS or the federal government.

    In his letter, applying these rules, Director Frieden explains that the request from Yates Hazelhurst’s attorneys only fills the first requirement. That’s because the suit – from the letter and the articles – claims that “the vaccines were improperly administered in 2001.” The studies in question were published in 2004, 2007, and 2010 – so they would not have made the vaccines “improperly administered” in 2001: medical malpractice is assessed based on what is known at the time, not in hindsight, and at the time of administering the vaccines to Yates, the studies were not yet done.

    So even if the claims were true (and the evidence at present does not support a claim of fraud, or support a real link between vaccines and autism that anyone would have to hide, it would not be relevant to a claim of malpractice in giving Yates Hazelhurst the vaccines.

    Prof Reiss’ other articles about vaccine-related lawsuits, found on the SR website, are worth reading. Among their other problems, antivaxx plaintiffs routinely seem unable to hire competent lawyers.

  • Reality022:
    “He’s alive and still working and, therefore, available for interviews/commentary.”

    Thank you for helping out correcting Reality022, Shay. He gets so many things wrong and all I’ve been doing all day is correcting him. It’s nice to have some help.

  • shay simmons

    I made no statement that contradicted Reality022.

  • Brian


    That was the point going over your head.

  • Lavazza

    Vaccine Industry Playbook, chapter 1
    Step 1: Write an article labeling those who criticize your product’s safety as “anti-vaccine.” (check)
    Step 2: Label any and all criticism as “lies.” (check)
    Step 3: Paint your critics as dastardly villains; make them sound like they’re a form of organized crime rather than what they really are: parents of children who had severe adverse reactions to vaccines. (check)
    Step 4: Repeat industry talking points and claims of safety. Under no circumstances discuss inconvenient facts, like how the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine contains 14 times the accepted FDA “safe limit” of aluminum for IV feedings. We don’t want people to know that aluminum is in vaccines in large enough amounts to cause brain damage to those who might have genetic susceptibilities to adverse vaccine reaction. (check)
    Step 5: Make sure to make the reader fear any and all “disease” (as long as there’s a vaccine for it). State that vaccines are the ONLY possible way to avoid death from these illnesses. DON’T MENTION HAND-WASHING, or staying home from work,school, and the gym when sick, or proper nutrition, or getting enough rest. We don’t want people to know the facts, and above all, we don’t want them questioning our vaccines.

  • Sure you did. Reality022 said that Thompson is allowed to speak freely and you corrected Reality022.

  • shay simmons
  • Brian

    Thanks for proving me correct!

  • shay simmons

    I think you should re-read both posts as your enthusiasm has led you into a series of reading comprehension errors.

  • shay simmons

    You are conflating — deliberately? morbidity with mortality.

  • lol. Naw, all my statements have been correct. I’m *constantly* correcting Reality022.

    It’s getting tiring actually. I think I’m going to watch a movie.

  • shay simmons

    Brave Sir Robin.

  • Well, actually your image doesn’t mention either.

    The important thing to get is that vaccines aren’t being used for mortality in the US since they did barely anything for that.

    In fact, notice how the death rates has gone up as more vaccines have been added.

  • Lavazza

    The rate of autism APPEARED to keep rising after thimerosal was removed in 2001 ONLY because the rate of autism was based on 2-year-old data on 8 year-olds. In other words, the autism rate as announced by the CDC in 2001 was for children born in 1989.

    We didn’t see the autism rate for children born in 2002 until 2014. Of course, those children also got 25% more shots their first year, since 4 doses of aluminum-adjuvanted Prevnar was added to the schedule in 2002. So was the flu shot _WHICH STILL CONTAINED THIMEROSAL.

    See what Reality022 did there?

  • shay simmons

    Note that what is found in some vaccines (not all) are aluminum salts, not aluminum. That being said,

    And it’s true that pretty much everything is toxic at a high enough dose. Google “hypnoatremia.”

  • shay simmons

    You can’t die of something you don’t catch.

  • Brian

    AV: MMR cause autism!
    Reality: No it doesn’t
    AV: Thimerosal in vaccines cause autism!
    Reality: No it doesn’t
    AV: Aluminum in vaccines cause autism!
    Reality: No it doesn’t

    Way to keep moving those goal posts!

  • Exactly! That’s why public health without medicine is so important.

    Which is why the authors of one of the article wrote:
    “again, nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available.”

    Notice how they point out that neither vaccines nor antibiotics were available?

    “Annual Summary of Vital Statistics: Trends in the Health of Americans During the 20th Century,” Guyer, Pediatrics, 2000

  • Brian

    The unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated, so it’s obvious the two aren’t related. Anti-vaxxers continue to lie about this.

  • shay simmons
  • shay simmons

    He was one of the very best GI surgeons in the UK and was approached by lawyers for parents of autistic children


  • shay simmons

    You really do allow your enthusiasm to lead you into errors of reading comprehension, don’t you?

  • shay simmons

    William Thompson’s coauthor, Colleen Boyle, was also involved in fraudulent research on another study concluding agent orange did not harm Vietnam vets.

    Isn’t it interesting that the only place I can find that claim is on RFK’s website.

  • aangel, hunkering down in his basement, drooled conspiratorially, “No he is not, if he wants to get his pension and not be sued by the government.”
    Nice konspiracee!!!!11!! you’ve predictably pulled from your colon, aangel.
    Have any evidence for your delusion?
    He already gave an interview to Brian Hooker (even if he didn’t know it due to Hooker’s dishonesty) and nothing happened… heck, he even got an award and recognition from the CDC for his service shortly after.
    He is not a “whistleblower” and I defy you to find where ‘the Obama administration granted him whistleblower status’ as the k00ky website that started that lie termed it.
    If he wanted he could call CNN/FoxNews/ABC/CBS/NBC right now and give them an interview and statement… The only problem is he’d better not lie or misrepresent the facts or he will find himself in a legal world of trouble. Maybe that’s why we’ve heard nothing from him for 4 years.

  • lol. You are seriously out of touch with reality if you think he wouldn’t get fired without his pension by talking now.

    You have been wrong on virtually every assertion you have made the whole day so I really shouldn’t be surprised that you are wrong now. Actually, I’m not sure you have gotten anything correct today.

  • shay simmons

    Shall I tell everyone about Poul Thorsen too or have you had enough?

    That would be the Poul Thorsen who

    1) was accused of financial rather than scientific fraud – to whit, misappropriating grant money to his own use
    2) is fourth author on a paper showing no link between MMR and autism in a large population study of Danish children
    3) which was not funded by that particular grant
    4) which has not been retracted nor has the validity of the research been questioned
    5) which was conducted with numerous other scientists,
    6) none of whom have been charged with anything ?

    In the words of Gertrude Stein, “There’s no there there.”

  • shay simmons

    You are seriously out of touch with reality if you think it’s that easy to fire a senior civil servant*, particularly one who, like Thompson, skylined himself.

    (*I’ve tried).

  • shay simmons

    Why didn’t you use the correct term, then?

  • Brian

    It took me just a few seconds to find the msnbc interview where RFK Jr. lied and said that not only MMR, but ALL childhood vaccines have thimerosal in them.


  • “If you were not referring to Hg why did you not use the correct notation?”

    It is quite common in articles to refer to compounds by their most important atom.

    Thus, you will find authors refer to all the aluminum salts simply as Al even though there are at least four different compounds in use in vaccines today.

    So you folks think you are so clever when in fact you look like amateurs trying to look really, really smart.

    Here is an example from:
    Aluminum salts in vaccines–US perspective.

    “Aluminum in the form of aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate or alum has been commonly used as an adjuvant in many vaccines licensed by the US Food and Drug Administration. Chapter 21 of the US Code of Federal Regulations [610.15(a)] limits the amount of aluminum in biological products, including vaccines, to 0.85 mg/dose. The amount of aluminum in vaccines currently licensed in the US ranges from 0.85-0.125 mg/dose.”

    Notice the last sentence. This usage is all over the scientific literature; perhaps you don’t read much of it hence why you think you are being so clever.

  • shay simmons
  • shay simmons

    Hoist, petard, own.

  • Sure, one that has been expressly told not to talk anyone about an accusation of fraud in the government.


  • shay simmons

    Downvoted/flagged for shill accusation.

  • shay simmons

    And cost the state of Minnesota about $1mil.

  • Brian

    Where’s the accusation of fraud?

    The “CDCWhistleblower” hoax is four years old at this point.

  • Brian

    This aangel guy is a hoot!
    He says others “are seriously out of touch with reality”, when, if I recall correctly, he claims the “polio story” was fabricated by the government.

  • Otto

    Oh oh…do Chem Trails next!

  • Lavazza desperately trying to deflect the inconvenient facts that the autism rate continued to rise after removal of Thimerosal from vaccines by drooling,
    1) “The rate of autism APPEARED to keep rising after thimerosal was removed in 2001 ONLY because the rate of autism was based on 2-year-old data on 8 year-olds.”
    2) “the autism rate as announced by the CDC in 2001 was for children born in 1989”
    3) “We didn’t see the autism rate for children born in 2002 until 2014”
    4) “Of course, those children also got 25% more shots their first year,…”
    1) The autism rate did not “appear” to rise “only” due to… – the autism rate did IN FACT increase. There is no “appear” about it. It disconfirms your anti-vax delusion so you don’t like it but facts are stubborn things
    Autism rate by birth year and surveillance year:

    2) See linked table:
    Surveillance Year: 2000
    Birth Year: 1992 (Not 1989 or 1988)
    Autism Rate: 1 in 150

    3) Surveillance Year: 2014
    Birth Year: 2006 (not 2002)
    Autism Rate: 1 in 59

    Now let’s look at before/after birth year 2001 when Thimerosal was removed:
    Birth Year____Autism Rate
    Before removal:
    1998_______ 1 in 110 (an increase)
    2000_______ 1 in 88 (an increase)
    After removal:
    2002_______ 1 in 68 (an increase, not a decrease)
    2004_______ 1 in 68 (no decrease)
    2006_______ 1 in 59 (an increase, not a decrease)
    4) Perhaps realizing that the autism rate would go against the Thimerosal/vaccine delusion Lavazza creates an ad hoc explanation as to why the numbers don’t match the anti-vaccine cult’s claims or predictions.
    See what Lavazza did there in 1), 2) and 3)?
    We call that lying.

  • Where did I say that flu shots with Hg aren’t given to children?
    In California, and other states, it is illegal unless there is an emergency.
    It is you who lies about the amount of Hg children are getting via vaccines.
    Your hypothesis (151µg Hg) is laughably absurd on the face of it and depends on all children getting Thimerosal containing flu vaccine. A fact you haven’t bothered to try and verify since it is obviously false.
    Then there’s the little lie about the “vaccines didn’t save us” trope where you idiotically look at the special case of the US and try to imply that the drop in mortality seen here through better medical care and living conditions applies to the world. Yet the world is rid of smallpox and nearly polio when it is largely undeveloped thanks to vaccines.
    Then you try to say “disregard the undeveloped world and only look at the US… see we don’t need vaccines.” when the only reason we don’t have a much larger death toll and huge numbers hospitalized from vaccine preventable diseases is because we vaccinate. If we stopped vaccinating like you lunatics desire we’d rapidly have a healthcare crisis.
    Merely look at Romania and Italy and their measles outbreak with attendant deaths due to low vaccination rates. Now image it if 100% of the population was unvaccinated.
    Using those mortality charts instead of incidence charts is a sure sign of a sleazy anti-vaccine lying ignoramus.
    You haven’t educated me in anything except what a dishonest anti-vaccine cultist you are.
    You don’t know anything about this topic.

  • aangel drooled, “I’m not sure you have gotten anything correct today.”
    – Actually, I have gotten everything correct – you merely have a reading comprehension problem… and not only with what I write but with other pro-vaccine advocates as well.
    You aren’t “educating” anyone.
    In case you haven’t noticed, you are the subject of laughter and ridicule by the rationalists. The only folks who think you aren’t being slapped around are the other delusional anti-vaxxers.
    Like someone on here said, When are you and the other loons going to start discussing Khemtrailz!!!!!!!11!!!1!!?

  • aangel said, “California gets a waiver… every year.”
    – 8 hours later… still waiting for aangel to “educate” me on this subject by providing some evidence.
    How about you show a waiver for the years 2012-2017… I’ll generously give you the “every year” if you merely provide 6 years worth of evidence.
    Bet you can’t, Mr. Educator Disinformation. (… and you’re going to start a ‘Vaccine Education Course’ website… It is to laugh.)

  • Mike Stevens

    Your 60% figure is entirely speculative and has no basis in fact.
    It is derived from assumptions that every infant gets every recommended flu shot, that every pregnant woman gets flu shots, that all the thimerosal in the flu shot goes into the fetus and none stays in the mother, and that every flu vaccine has thimerosal in it.

    We know none of those assumptions are true.
    I don’t know US figures, but in the UK only 42% of pregnant women got the flu shot in 2015/2016, for example, and we know kids are not fully vaccinated against flu.

    We also know that over 80% of available flu vaccine in the US (and 100% of the flu vaccines in countries like the UK) are thimerosal free, and we have plenty of anecdotal evidence that pregnant women and infants are preferrentially given the thimerosal free versions.

    In practice, the number of infants exposed to thimerosal is likely to be in single figure percentages. Even allowing for full vaccination of every single eligible infant/pregnant woman, the number would not exceed 18% (which is the percentage of flu vaccines that actually do have thimerosal in them in the US).

  • Mike Stevens

    “Apparently all you know about Wakefield is what you’ve learned from the media.”

    Well, I am a UK physician who experienced first hand the Wakefield saga, and have followed it extremely closely through medical sources, not just the media. (In fact, Wakefield was a darling of the media for a long time in the UK).
    However its clear you’ve only heard about Wakefield by reading antivaccine propaganda websites.

    “He was one of the very best GI surgeons in the UK”

    No, he wasn’t a surgeon at all. He was a physician. He has never lifted a scalpel in his professional lifetime (which was short, fortunately).
    …And what is it with this insistence among antivaxers to constantly label every antivax medical person as “the best — in the UK”, or “One of the world’s best —“? Quite bizarre.

    “…was approached by parents of autistic children who also had GI tract problems and they asked for his help.”

    Nope. He was approached by Dawbarns solicitors on behalf of the plaintiffs to provide evidence and act as an expert witness in litigation against the MMR manufacturers. He then arranged for patients to be admitted to his unit where he carried out unethical research which included unnecessary invasive tests that were not clinically indicated. This was to gather evidence to support the legal case. If you want more specific details, just ask. I don’t want to fill up this thread with all the evidence against him, that would use up tens of thousands of words.

  • Mike Stevens

    You are just spamming now.
    Where has anyone here claimed vaccines were the only reason for the dramatic decline in deaths from infectious diseases?
    If you had any integrity you’d stick to the topic and to the facts, instead of acting as an antivaccine propaganda source.

  • Maybe do a blog entry on it?

  • You realize we don’t actually know that yet, right?

    Also can you explain “real immunity” please?

  • Mike Stevens

    “Well, actually your image doesn’t mention either.”
    The image talked about eradication of diseases. That clearly isn’t referring to deaths, is it? Do you have difficulty understanding English?

  • Mike Stevens

    Tell me, aangel, what was the primary reason for the decline in incidence of diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, invasive HiB, pneumococcal meningitis, meningococcal disease, smallpox, polio, rotaviral infections etc?
    Clean water? Fairy dust? Unicorn farts?

  • In like manner – Where has anyone claimed the purpose of vaccines was to effect a decline in deaths from vaccine preventable diseases?
    As you know:
    The purpose of a vaccine is to prevent the incidence of the disease. IOW – to prevent individuals from getting the disease. The reduction of lost work days, miserably ill people, hospitalizations, deaths, etc. is merely an expected result of the reduced incidence.
    That is why it is so dishonest for the anti-vaccine cultists to try and present reduced mortality as the raison d’être for vaccines when the reason for their existence is the reduction of disease incidence.

    Presenting mortality charts as some sort of metric of vaccine usefulness is completely dishonest as the proper metric to measure vaccine success/failure is disease incidence. The lying anti-vaccine cult is reluctant to show the incidence charts as they show the vaccines doing exactly what they were designed to do – prevent the disease in the first place.
    aangel is merely stealing Suzy Humphries dishonest presentation of disease mortality instead of the proper measure of vaccine performance – disease incidence.
    You can’t die or go to the hospital from a disease you never catch.
    Why do the anti-vaccine death cultists constantly lie?

  • So, you’re going to “teach” this bit of dishonest anti-vaccine codswallop in your “vaccine course”?
    Nice. Teaching people to lie. What a guy.
    And when they get out in the real world with rational people they will drool all over themselves when asked why they are using mortality charts instead of incidence charts.
    You should change the name of your scam from “vaccinecourse” to “anti-vaccinecourse” or perhaps “disinfocourse”.
    Prerequisites: Moron 101, Gullibility 104, Lying 202.

  • Mike Stevens

    Another one for your list:
    #21 “Dr X is a world expert” = “I would like to say scientists support my view, but I could only find one crank who agrees with me”

  • Mike Stevens

    “The recordings took place when Hooker traveled to Oregon, which is a one-party state. They are 100% legal.”

    A bit like claiming: “I’m not a junkie; it’s legal to use crack and heroin in country X”

  • Mike Stevens

    Thompson committed felony fraud? How long was his sentence?

  • Mike Stevens

    The statement read out by Posey in Congress that deliberately ommitted the sentence which scuppered Thompson’s claims that the data was destroyed?
    Is that the statement you mean?

  • Yep, but I would say:
    “Dr X is a world renowned** expert” = “I want to say scientists support my view, but I could only find one obscure crank who agrees with me.”
    **See my profile biography for my snarky use of this common k00k tactic.

  • Mike Stevens

    “The documentary is not about Dr. Wakefield. It is about William Thompson a CDC whistle blower.”
    Only in theory. In fact it is all about Wakefield.
    Tell me, did Thompson appear in this “documentary” that was supposedly all about him?

  • Mike Stevens

    “I can’t verify any of my claims, so I’ll turn this around and accuse you of being wrong.”

  • Mike Stevens

    “I think I’m going to watch a movie.”
    Can I suggest “Peppa Pig goes to town”?

  • Mike Stevens

    Well, Wakefield was found guilty on 34 charges by the UK GMC, which included several counts of dishonesty.
    So claims that he is a liar are not just “opinion”.

    What are just “opinions” are your own claims, however.

  • Mike Stevens

    ..much better! Thanks!

  • And you have established that this is a cause of autism rather than an affect or a coincidence….how, exactly? Be specific. Bring evidence.

  • The proper name for this latter stat is a ‘freak” and you’re supposed to ignore it.

    So the correct way to do that is (1.45+1.55)/2 = x and use x value.

  • @disqus_Vqd9OqZVm7:disqus …. care to oblige?

  • He already did it, Sudanese LHGR. I don’t think he saw my post requesting it.
    See his post:

  • In my education they were/are called “outliers” and there are stat. tests to determine if they can be rejected from the rest of the data population such as Grubb’s T-test, Dixon’s Q-test, etc. As you know, you just don’t go throwing out data just because you don’t like it or it looks wrong to you.

    Edited to add: The preferable treatment is to amass many more data points and retain the outlier who’s effect on the result, even if a false measurement, will then be diluted to insignificance. Exley did not do the freshman basics of looking at his data and saying, “Hokey Smokes! I better get more data points to be sure of my results.” He’s a biased schlockmeister who I wouldn’t trust reading my electric meter.

  • The fact that they trust a GI doctor to educate them on a brain issue – is like having heart surgery and asking a door doctor to do the procedure

  • Let’s establish that there is an epidemic first. Using a consistent definition, can you show me that autism is much higher in children than in adults?

  • Name one vaccine with aluminum in it. Same for mercury. And remember that those are elements in your answer.

  • Dan Bland

    You can get on Amazon. Please tell me why it was flagged as spam. Prove to me it is not used in any Medical school.

  • Dan Bland

    The guy who does nothing but ridicule and belittle people is your favorite?

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Brian has been telling that lie to people for years. Ask him for his definition of “unvaccinated.” It won’t be “not vaccinated.”

  • Dan Bland

    Thanks for watching the documentary. His voice does occur in the documentary many times including him saying how remorseful he is now because he now feels partially responsible for the autism epidemic which continues to worsen as we speak.

  • Dan Bland

    Hooker has a child with Autism. He is also a scientist who knows vaccines cause autism. If you were in his shoes you would have probably recorded the conversations also.

  • Dan Bland

    You’ve got it wrong. Poul Thorsen is the CDC scientist who committed fraud and had to flee the country because of it. He also took thousands of grant dollars with him when he did leave. Oh by the way, Thorsen is one of the scientists who conducted most of the research concluding vaccine don’t cause autism.

  • Just because he studies science doesn’t mean he knows ANYTHING about autism. Autism as a WHOLE is not well understood.

  • Dan Bland

    The latest research has discovered extremely high levels of aluminum in the brain tissue of deceased autistic individuals. These levels even exceed the levels found in the brain tissue of Alzheimer patients. So it is the aluminum adjuvants in vaccines causing autism

  • The study didn’t even LOOK at deceased neurotypical patients. Also, how old were the patients? Correlation does not mean causation. You MIGHT have aluminum in your brain. I might too. This argument of attaching a disease that causes dementia and one that creates issues with communication, socialization and rigid thinking – is apple and oranges. Autistics don’t have dementia. In fact many Autistics have an incredible memory, are highly intelligent, and capable of learning. They don’t have a disease that is eating away at the tissue like Alzheimers. In fact, most autistics have totally normal looking brains in images. It is why all doctors require MRIs before a diagnosis today.

    Brain damage is classified not as autism but traumatic brain injury or brain death. Individuals with brain damage have known pockets of dead tissue. Others have nerves that are no longer functioning. Their symptoms are far more than rigid thinking, social difficulties, sensory issues, and literal thinking. True brain damage causes pain and parts of the body not to work. I know this because my son has REAL brain damage due to illness. Autism is not brain damage. It’s a description used by clinicians which describes a set of symptoms. The spectrum is wide, and many children are very different. Doctors have found patterns that show genetic connections in Autism.

    Perpetuating this lie that vaccines cause Autism over-simplifies a complex neurological condition. Additionally, if we want to look to experts, taking the word of a doctor that is a specialist in stomachs – is not an accurate source for knowledge. My son has hydrocephalus and a shunt – you better believe, I’m not taking him to a GI doctor to manage his brain-related disorders.

    The comparison is like saying a heart patient with a bad valve has the same symptoms as a patient with a stomach disease.

  • Everything Dan Bland just posted above is utterly false. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He can’t even get the anti-vaccine talking points correct.

  • Sure. I got hung up on the shop example where you may not have ready access. Of course, you can also weigh an object with a known weight there.

  • So you call Thorsen a fraud but then won’t’ admit Wakefield is a fraud. Even though Wakefield lost his license to practice and admitted that his research had been manipulated to reach the desired outcomes of the trial?

  • As has been discussed earlier, Exley is a very, very poor scientist and this study just exemplifies it.
    As WithoutACrystalBall notes he did not use any control samples so who knows if the results he obtained were anomalous. He also has a strange tolerance for schlocky data:
    “I also notice some rather extreme variability in measurements. For instance, the sample replicates for one specimen were 1.71, 1,64, and 17.10 μg/g dry weight. For those not familiar with scientific terminology, “replicate” means repeated measurements performed on the same sample, although in this case the replicates the samples were divided into three, and each portion subjected to the same procedure to measure aluminum. The replicates were then averaged and a standard deviation calculated. There were other replicates as questionable. For example, for another sample the replicates measured 2.44, 1.66, and 22.11 μg/g dry weight. For still another sample, replicates were 0.01, 0.64, and 18.57 μg/g dry weight. Remember, again, these are replicate measurements of the same samples.”
    Let’s see:
    I test sample (#1) 3 times and get 1.71, 1,64, and 17.10 μg/g
    I test sample (#2) 3 times and get 2.44, 1.66, and 22.11 μg/g
    I test sample (#3) 3 times and get 0.01, 0.64, and 18.57 μg/g
    What do I do? If I’m a biased schlockmeister like Chris Exley I moronically accept the numbers and just average them instead of questioning my methods which can produce such wildly divergent results from the same sample.
    Read the article to see what actual scientists think of this idiotic demonstration by Exley.

  • AFAIK Wakefield has never admitted any wrongdoing. He is a totally unrepentant sleazy science fraud and liar. He’s only gotten worse as the years go by. I think he’s actually convinced himself of the lying fantasy he’s been telling his acolytes.
    I believe he is also the originator of the bizarre delusion that since Walker-Smith was reinstated that he, too, should be reinstated and is not guilty. He’s totally detached from reality.

  • I always get my medical advice from the Rug Doctor®… much more reliable than Andy Wakefraud.

  • Dan Bland

    All of your comments begin the same way by ridiculing and berating. Exley uses real science with perfect controls unlike the CDC which uses injections with all the ingredients except the antigen. When this is done is it checking how dangerous the adjuvant is. Is it checking how dangerous the preservative is?

  • Dan Bland

    Exley is an expert on aluminum. He has studied aluminum for 35 years. Before checking the brain tissue in autistic individuals he had checked the brain tissues of over 100 Alzheimer patients. He is a good scientist unlike the fraudulent Poul Thorsen at the CDC who had to flee the country. This is the type scientist you “pro-VAXXERS” trust.

  • Dan Bland babbled, “Exkey uses real science with perfect controls…”
    Did you read the article? Apparently not.
    “I could see a number of problems with the methods used. First, there are no controls. Certainly, if Exley were accessing the Oxford Brain Bank to obtain tissue from autistic people, then why couldn’t he have also obtained brain tissue from age-matched normal controls?”
    Are you functionally illiterate or merely so biased you cannot see the words that show your position to be false?
    Reading is Fundamental.

  • Dan Bland

    Are you trying to make me mad? Try commenting without berating. I hope others are seeing how uncivil you are. Your behavior should indicate to them what kind of person you are.

  • You didn’t answer the question:
    Are you functionally illiterate?

  • Dan Bland

    Let’s see your avatar is Dudley Dooright I think from your actions shouldn’t you be Snidely Whiplash instead?

  • Dan Bland

    No I didn’t read the article.

  • The Snidely avatar was already being used by somebody.
    Answer the question, then explain how you can state that Exley used “perfect controls” when he used no controls.

  • Dan Bland

    Most autistic individuals are still young. There is an ever growing epidemic of autism. I am almost 68 and had never seen anyone with autism or had never even heard of the word until the Movie “Rainman”. So to get perfect brain controls would be hard because most people who die are old not young. His research into aluminum causing autism is still in its infancy and I’m sure he will study it further. However, the establishment will do the same thing you’re doing to this fine scientist and try to underrate him and criticize until they have destroyed his career exactly like they did to Wakefield. Does the media ever mention Thorsen and tell the world of his fraud?

  • That’s a fine attempt at justifying Exley’s lack of using matched controls but excuses for not following very basic procedures doesn’t cut it in the world of science.
    Personally, I would be much more demanding than Dr. Gorski. He only wanted age matched controls. I would want age, sex, BMI, and cultural heritage matching… at least. That way the aluminum intake of the subjects via food would be more matched… you know… eliminate confounders… (of course you don’t know.)
    Back to the playground for you…
    (You may now start to snivel about the tone of my posts and how I’m a big meanie… Sorry, I have no respect for lunatics who promote delusional cults that wish to harm children.)

  • that’s not true. Autism isn’t a new disease. What is new is the diagnostic criteria we use to identify autism.

  • Dan Bland

    Why don’t we just talk about the CDC scientist that you people trust, Poul Thorsen. One our congressmen has called him the scum of the earth and yet you folks trust his science????

  • Dan Bland

    Again I’ve been on this earth almost 68 years. When I was a child there were no children screaming waving their hands wildly and bashing their heads against the wall. Nowadays I know several families affected by it and I’m sure you do too.

  • Oh, for god’s sake – grow up.
    Because Thorsen’s science hasn’t been in question. His ethics in regard to embezzlement may be questionable, but you can be a thief and still produce quality science.
    How come the traffic tickets of Brian Hooker or Suzy Humphries isn’t discussed? Answer – Because it is irrelevant to their bizarre scientific/medical statements.
    You don’t seem to understand the very basics of science… or human behaviour for that matter.
    I may not like a scientist’s politics or that they are a tax cheat, but if their science holds up… it holds up.

  • Dan Bland

    What? You’re going to trust a guy who fled the country with over a million dollars in grant money and is wanted by the FBI? Hmmm I would not trust a guy like this at all no matter what. This says a lot about you and your abilities to reason and make decisions.

  • Yes, I’m going to trust the guy’s science until someone shows it is in error.
    Would I lend him my credit card? Hardly.
    Grow up and think like an adult instead of like a cult member, would you?

  • Dan Bland

    Why hasn’t the CDC studied vaccinated vs unvaccinated. Sounds like the CDC doesn’t understand the very basics of science to me. At least I know what kind of research project to undertake. Why haven’t they studied vaccines with aluminum vs vaccines without aluminum? This isn’t that difficult but the CDC seems incapable of solving the problem.

  • They have (not the CDC specifically). You culties just don’t like the results.
    To do a prospective, randomized, double blind vaccinated/unvaccinated study of vaccines known to be effective is highly unethical. Do you realize you are proposing we perform another Tuskegee experiment? Not very ethical of you, but the anti-vaccine cult isn’t known for their ethics.

  • that’s because when you were a kid – those kids were sent to institutions.

  • Dan Bland

    They have not studied vaccinated vs unvaccinated. Again their studies use a vaccine and then they use as a control an injection with all the ingredients except the antigen. So in other words they are doing an antigen vs non antigen test. If you disagree with this prove to me they’ve done a vaccinated vs unvaccinated test. I can show you Colleen Boyle sitting in front of Congress saying they haven’t done vaccinated vs unvaccinated but it’s on a YouTube video and you’re not going to watch that just because it’s a YouTube video.

  • Exactly. Not to be offensive, but back in my day (1950s-1970s) they were termed “retarded” or suffering “child schizophrenia”, etc. and the regular schools did not cater to them. In my district the special ed. school was on the same campus as my high school and served the deaf, blind, retarded, “emotionally disturbed”, etc. so I saw quite a few children that would today be diagnosed as autistic.
    And, as you know, the definition of autism has been expanded to ASD which includes kids that are exceptionally intelligent but have some socialization problems. Back before the 1980s they would be considered “normal” but “weird” and “loners”.

  • Dan Bland

    I think everyone knows the autism problem is an epidemic and it’s getting worse. You probably understand it too but you’d never admit it.

  • FallsAngel

    …And what is it with this insistence among antivaxers to constantly
    label every antivax medical person as “the best — in the UK”, or “One
    of the world’s best —“? Quite bizarre.

    I’ve asked them that question, too. Take Wakefield (please!)-He is now 61 years old (Source: Wikipedia). He was 41 when he wrote his sci-fi piece for the Lancet. He was in his late 30s when he did his research. He was just getting started in his career!

  • Mike Stevens

    R“You’ve got it wrong. Poul Thorsen is the CDC scientist who committed fraud”

    Nope.. you are wrong, yet again. Please try and keep up, will you.
    The govt scientist who Aangel accused of “admitting felony fraud” is William Thompson, not Poul Thorsen. I wondered why a someone who admitted to felony fraud hadn’t been convicted and jailed…Aangel hasn’t responded, presumably because he was making it all up.

    Regarding the Danish scientist Thorsen, yes he was accused of wire fraud and money laundering. He supposedly did this when he went to Atlanta and joined their CDC team there. He went back to Denmark, and the US have not followed up with any extradition request. One must assume they are not bothered.

    Thorsen’s alleged crime was not scientific fraud, but wire fraud which is a felony. He was never accused of any scientific fraud. He was a minor co-author in some CDC papers on autism. His alledged crimes do not invalidate his scientific contribution, in the same was that if Eintstein embezzeled some of the post office money that went through his hands while he was in their employ, that doesn’t invlidate the general theory of relativity.

    If you want examples of scientific fraud (which does invalidate the research findings), look no further than Wakefield.

  • FallsAngel

    If you had never heard the word until “Rainman” (1989), it is you who was living under a rock.

  • Dan Bland mumbled cultishly, “They have not studied vaccinated vs unvaccinated.”
    Yes they have.
    Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents
    Findings of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents (KiGGS)

    Early-life determinants of asthma from birth to age 20 years: A German birth cohort study

    Vaccinated versus unvaccinated children: how they fare in first five years of life.
    etc., etc., etc.

  • Dan Bland

    I apologize for being so less observant that you. Please forgive me. The
    epidemic is growing. Do you deny that?

  • Dan Bland
  • Mike Stevens

    Why did you say the study used controls when it didn’t?

  • Mike Stevens

    He posts incisively accurate rebuttals to your drivelling speculation and antivax nonsense. I can see why you are rather miffed.

  • Brian

    1. No controls…
    2. Wildly inconsistent results…
    3. Tiny sample sizes…

    How again does this supercede decades of research showing that vaccines don’t cause autism?

  • Dan Bland

    The study did use controls but the brains were not as identically paired as the people on this thread want them to be.

  • Mike Stevens

    You do have trouble reading, don’t you?
    Exley didn’t use controls in his study.

  • Mike Stevens

    You do have trouble reading, don’t you?
    Exley didn’t use controls in his study.

    Citing historical data from different studies using different analytical techniques to quantitate aluminium levels hardly counts as providing valid, contemporaneous control data, does it?
    Why on earth would you even think it does?

  • Brian

    Baxter et al. (2014), showed that, when using the same diagnosis criteria, the rate of autism hasn’t really changed in at least 30 years.

    Do you deny the evidence showing there is no epidemic?

  • Dan Bland

    The KiGGS study proved that vaccinated children are much less healthy than unvaccinated. Thanks for sharing. Oh by the way I said the CDC has not studied vaccinated vs unvaccinated. There was also another vaccinated vs unvaccinated in New Zealand and a more recent one in Florida both also proved unvaccinated children are healthier.

  • Brian

    Anti vax translator #1.

  • Dan Bland

    I was wrong. Here is Exley’s comment about controls: “We discussed control tissues but the only available were not age-matched and nor were they true controls as the donors were individuals in their 40s and 50s who died of a certain disease or condition. No age-matched healthy donor brain tissues were available. However, we have more data on the Al content of human brain tissue than anyone else and so we are in a position to compare our autism data with other data relating to almost 100 human brains. This is how we can come to our judgement that the values measured were some of the highest values ever measured in any individuals.”
    -Dr Chris Exley on the Mold 2017 aluminum measurements

  • Dan Bland

    “We discussed control tissues but the only available were not age-matched and nor were they true controls as the donors were individuals in their 40s and 50s who died of a certain disease or condition. No age-matched healthy donor brain tissues were available. However, we have more data on the Al content of human brain tissue than anyone else and so we are in a position to compare our autism data with other data relating to almost 100 human brains. This is how we can come to our judgement that the values measured were some of the highest values ever measured in any individuals.”
    -Dr Chris Exley on the Mold 2017 aluminum measurements

  • Brian

    So he admits he had no controls, displays wildly inconsistent results from tiny sample sizes, but then arrogantly proclaims his data is the best?

    Poor scientist indeed.

  • Dan Bland

    He has studied aluminum in brain tissue for years with Alzheimer patients in which he did use controls. He knows from those studies that Alzheimer victims have much higher aluminum levels than normal individuals. The autistic brains had higher levels than the Alzheimer victims and had lived much shorter lives. The autistic victims differed from the alzheimer victims also due to the aluminum being intracellular rather than intercellular.

  • Dan Bland

    Do the pro vaxxers seem to be much more hostile than those of us wanting safer vaccines to you? Seems that way to me. If they can’t have a discussion without being so rude I’ll just walk away.

  • FallsAngel

    Has nothing to do with your ignorance.

  • Brian

    Anti vax translator #18

  • FallsAngel

    Yes. The definition has been greatly expanded. Diagnostics have gotten better, and also getting identified helps get special help in school, that being somewhat of a motivation to diagnose these “quirky” kids, rather than stick them in an institution as in “Rainman”.

  • Dan blathered in his ignorance of statistics, “The KiGGS study proved that vaccinated children are much less healthy than unvaccinated.”
    – It did? Here’s a clue for you – No it did not. You obviously do not know how to interpret the data. Before you embarrass yourself further I suggest you get some high school math wiz to explain your error to you.
    Anti-vaccine culties – Demonstrating the Dunning-Kruger effect since the dawn or vaccination.

  • No kidding…

  • Brian

    Let’s pretend you are testing a weight loss drug. You get a total of five people to study.

    You don’t weigh any of them beforehand but you do once each month after they start taking your drug. For one of the subjects, the scale reads 200 lb for the first measurement, 600 lb the second time, and 40 lb the last time. The other subjects also show wildly inconsistent results, but you declare this is proof that your drug causes weight loss.

    Sound ridiculous? I agree.

  • “Your 60% figure is entirely speculative and has no basis in fact.

    No, it is based on the number 59% from the CDC page:

    which is in turn based National Immunization Survey-Flu (NIS-Flu) and Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS).

    If you don’t like the number, go take it up with the CDC.

    Further, in the calculation I lay out I didn’t even include the pre-natal shots, so add those in.

    What we don’t have is any evidence that in states where there are no regulations children and mothers are being given Hg-free shots. Everywhere on the CDC site they say it’s safe for everyone and not to worry, hence it’s more likely that they *are* being given to infants and pregnant moms.

    So on the high end we have .59 x 0.2 x 0.8 (states that allow it) x 4 million births per year = 377,600

    That’s a lot of kids getting stupid amounts of EtHg.

  • Mike Stevens

    ” One our congressmen has called him the scum of the earth”
    Because of unproven allegations of fraud?

    Pot… meet kettle.

  • You mean the surreptitious voice recording processed and edited by those two paragons of virtue and honesty – Andrew “The medical fraud” Wakefield and Brian “My reanalysis was retracted because of my undeclared conflicts of interest” Hooker?
    Why would anyone distrust anything these dishonest sacks of sh-t err… science frauds and retracted morons err… upstanding grifters produced? (/sarc)
    Andy Wakefraud wouldn’t lie, would he? Oh, wait a minute. He lost his medical license for lying along with other ethical infractions.

  • Mike Stevens

    You should read the book “Neurotribes”.

  • Autism isn’t a disease that causes death. BTW

  • Brian

    It was exposed during his VICP rejection that Hooker lied about his son’s medical history, and those same lies show up in his film. Why are you defending him?

  • Mike Stevens

    You are talking at cross purposes with …yourself.
    First you stated that mercury exposure in kids was “about 60% of its 1999 peak”. (In fact you claimed it was 63%).
    That is clearly what both you and I were referring to, not your stat of 59% flu vaccine coverage in infants.

  • Mike Stevens

    Well thanks at least for admitting you were wrong. I hope you can see how this lessens the validity of the study performed by Exley. Perhaps you will be less keen to push it at people now you have acknowledged its limitations.

  • Mike Stevens

    “The study did use controls but the brains were not as identically paired as the people on this thread want them to be.”

    Wrong. As you now accept the claim to be…
    Exley: “We discussed control tissues but the only available were not age-matched and nor were they true controls as the donors were individuals in their 40s and 50s who died of a certain disease or condition. No age-matched healthy donor brain tissues were available.”

    ie: No appropriate controls.

  • Which means if there are no controls the study is meaningless

  • Mike Stevens

    Interesting is how both Walker Smith and Wakefield seem to constantly vie in the antivax playbook for the honour of being the “World’s best gastroenterologist”.

    Reality is, he does feature on Time Magazine’s shortlist of the “World’s greatest science fraud”. one of the world’s

  • Meanwhile, I’m sitting over here wondering what makes a GI doctor an expert in Autism…….

  • Mike Stevens

    The love of money.
    He got $750k from Legal Aid in the UK for 2 yrs medicolegal work as a supposed “expert” in vaccines and autism. He knew practically zero about either subject.
    Since his scienific disgrace, he has promoted himself as an autism expert, gaining $$$ and slavish acolytes wherever he goes.
    It’s a nice littel earner for him.

  • Mike Stevens

    Well, not entirely meaningless, but certainly meaningless wrt claims it demonstrates aluminium causes autism.

  • No, pay attention. There are two numbers and they are similar.

    One number is 59% and that is flu coverage for 6 months through 17 years. I have stated that several times.

    The second number is the amount of EtHg exposure of children <= 5 years old between 1999 and today. That number is approximately 63%; see the calculations elsewhere for how that is obtained.

    But why do you care? You folks don't think Hg is a problem and that there is no practical limit to how much we should inject into pregnant women and infants.

    In fact, the stupid CDC even includes this on their website:
    "While the most recent and rigorous scientific research shows that thimerosal-containing vaccines are not harmful."

    They don't warn pregnant women not to get the shots with Thimerosal.

  • Shoshana

    I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at with your comment. Are you saying that bc aluminum hydroxide is classified as a salt that we should ignore all of the biological studies, pharmacokinetics and toxicology studies demonstrating all of the above?

  • You know every woman is gettin 70 shots

  • You have no idea how many kids within your data even have autism. So all these percentages are meaningless. Children without vaccine exposure

    In fact – here is a study from 2015

    “MMR vaccine receipt was not associated with an increased risk of ASD at any age. For children with older siblings with ASD, at age 2, the adjusted relative risk (RR) of ASD for 1 dose of MMR vaccine vs no vaccine was 0.76 (95% CI, 0.48-1.22; P = .25), and at age 5, the RR of ASD for 2 doses compared with no vaccine was 0.56 (95% CI, 0.30-1.04; P = .07). For children whose older siblings did not have ASD, at age 2, the adjusted RR of ASD for 1 dose was 0.91 (95% CI, 0.68-1.20; P = .50) and at age 5, the RR of ASD for 2 doses was 1.09 (95% CI, 0.76-1.54; P = .65).”


    In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.

  • Dan Bland

    I was wrong here. I had seen tables only showing that unvaccinated children had less allergies, asthma, neurodermatitis, herpes, otitis media, hay fever, hyperactivity, scoliosis, epilepsy/seizures, migraines and thyroid disease. All of these maladies just mentioned are from a graph that anyone can see just by googling KiGGS vaccines and search for images.

  • Dan Bland

    Show proof please,

  • Dan Bland

    Get a life please

  • Dan Bland

    Don’t want to either Snidley

  • Dan Bland
  • Dan Bland

    His rebuttals are nothing but ad hominems and garbage

  • Dan Bland

    Thompson committed Fraud then later admitted it. Thorsen committed fraud on the vaccine/autism research all of you tend to believe so much then fled the country with over a million dollars in grant money.

  • Brian

    Yup, better identification and wider diagnosis criteria lead to more diagnoses. That’s exactly what I’m saying. No epidemic.

  • “You know every woman is gettin 70 shots”

    What are you talking about?

  • Brian

    If I show you, will you apologize and retract your comment?

  • Mike Stevens

    “Thorsen committed fraud on the vaccine/autism research”

    He allegedly stole research funds.

    Nothing to invalidate his scientific work.

    But like all antivaxers, you distort and lie to try and score antivaccine points.
    That won’t work, Dan.

  • Dan Bland

    I don’t know. Are you taking about this comment?:
    Hooker has a child with Autism. He is also a scientist who knows vaccines cause autism. If you were in his shoes you would have probably recorded the conversations also.

  • Mike Stevens

    “No, pay attention. There are two numbers and they are similar.”
    Yes, I had to point that out to you, because you were confusing the two.

  • Dan Bland

    Man if those ID’s and diagnoses keep getting better and better we’ll all have it some day.

  • See? You guys think there is no problem.

    Now, none of the studies you use account for Healthy User Bias (HUB) so they are worthless but you folks think they are valid.

    Fine and Chen said that “strenuous efforts” must be undertaken:
    “If such studies are to prove useful, they must include strenuous efforts to control for such factors in their design, analysis and interpretation. Whether this is possible at all may be open to discussion. The difficulty of doing so is indisputable.”

    But none of the studies take *any* effort to account for HUB.

    Hence, they are all invalid and should be thrown out. And the pharmaceutical industry keeps churning out worthless studies that don’t account for HUB and then say, “See? There is no problem.”

  • No, you were confusing them because the numbers are so close. I am quite clear on this math.

    Again, pay attention.

  • Brian

    “Hooker has a child with Autism.” No question there.
    “He is also a scientist who knows vaccines cause autism.” Obviously false because vaccines don’t cause autism. We’ve known this for decades now. Rather, he wanted other people to pay him for his son’s autism, so he fabricated a story about how his son changed overnight after getting the MMR. During the hearing, the son’s medical records were opened up, revealing that the son was missing developmental milestones long before getting the MMR, and there was no sudden change afterward. Read section IV of the VICP rejection if you want to verify this for youself.
    “If you were in his shoes you would have probably recorded the conversations also.” Doubtful. I don’t do sleazy things like that, especially to people I pretend are my friends.

  • That makes you look worse, not better.

    Because it means instead of being an ignorant fool, you’re deliberately stating false information.

  • And your evidence that anything in vaccines is toxic at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination was what…again? Be specific.

  • Dan Bland

    Vaccines do cause autism. Put your section IV of the VICP rejection here so I can read it.

  • You tell us, Dan. How much does Merck pay Brian?

  • And it doesn’t protect them from all liability. And there are these things called other countries.

    *beats dead horse to zombie state*
    *beats zombie horse to zombie death*
    *beats zombie-horse-corpse*

  • I have done and got Kiggs with the three groups.

  • Brian

    Do you deny the evidence shows that there is no epidemic of autism?

  • Do you know the difference between an insult and an ad hominem?

  • Dan Bland
  • Dan Bland

    Now watch the documentary, “Injecting Aluminum”, then you’ll have some more questions.

  • Dan Bland

    There’s also one entitled “Trace Amounts”.

  • Brian

    You failed to answer the question again. Do you deny the evidence shows that there is no autism epidemic?

    Your previous link discusses how wider screening led to the increase in diagnoses. Do you believe your own link?

  • Yeah, Trace Amounts has been on my list to do for a while. Thanks for the further suggestion of Injecting Aluminum. I’ll do those after I do the ‘You have no business’ series.

    Can you answer any of the questions that came up on the Vaxxed series though?

  • Dan Bland

    Or you could watch this two minute video.

  • Brian

    Before we discuss the other films, do you think it was wrong for Hooker and Wakefield to lie in the vaxxed film?

  • Brian

    The unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated, so it’s obvious the two aren’t connected.

  • Brian

    Anti vax translator #15.
    You anti reality folk are so predictable.

  • How did these parents establish the causative link? I trust It was on some basis more robust than the Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc fallacy.

  • shay simmons

    “His voice does occur in the documentary”

    Without his permission.

  • And could you address my questions on Vaxxed first please, Dan?

  • shay simmons

    1. What’s your evidence for that? and
    2. What experience do you have conducting disciplinary procedures against senior civil servants?

  • Except that does this:

    “Element in the form of compound. … Element [in the form of compound]….”

    What you do is this

    “Element… Element… Element….”

    See the difference?

  • shay simmons

    “So you folks think you are so clever when in fact you look like amateurs trying to look really, really smart.”

    Says the poster who posted this: “If the vial is not shaken properly and the syringe is drawn from the very bottom the dose may be higher.”

  • shay simmons
  • shay simmons

    Brave Sir Robin.

  • Apart from the fundamental rule of toxicology. And the basic chemistry rule of how we can breathe oxygen for a while and how we can’t breathe H2O. Other than the various health studies that were done.

    Other than that, yeah, there’s ZERO SCIENCE.

  • Dan Bland

    I’ll try to answer your questions one by one. You ask them and I’ll give it a try.

  • shay simmons

    Paul Thorsen again? Interesting that when you can’t answer the question you try to drag him into the conversation. I’ll say again:

    That would be the Poul Thorsen who

    1) was accused of financial rather than scientific fraud – to whit, misappropriating grant money to his own use
    2) is fourth author on a paper showing no link between MMR and autism in a large population study of Danish children
    3) which was not funded by that particular grant
    4) which has not been retracted nor has the validity of the research been questioned
    5) which was conducted with numerous other scientists,
    6) none of whom have been charged with anything ?

  • shay simmons

    “and is wanted by the FBI?”

    I went to the FBI Most Wanted List. Thorsen’s name does not appear there.

  • shay simmons

    “He is a good scientist unlike the fraudulent Poul Thorsen at the CDC who had to flee the country. ”

    Explain where in Thorsen’s studies he and his fellow researchers did not use proper controls.

  • I’ve already asked them: It’s the comment you responded to with suggestions for other films to do and posted the video that caused me to ask you about the causative link?

    Again, address them please.

  • Dan Bland

    Poul Thorsen: Autism Speaks’ Original Trailblazer Poul Thorsen, indicted last week (HERE) by US Attorneys for embezzling tax payers money via the Centers for Disease Control, also received $1 Million in funding through an Autism Speaks grant in 2008 (HERE). Now Autism Speaks is trying to hide their Thorsen affiliation. Why is that?

  • shay simmons

    You haven’t addressed my statement. Your tap-dance raises the question – What else have you gotten wrong?

  • “See the difference?”

    Oh, another person trying to look *so darn clever* and who doesn’t read the literature. See my response.

  • How can I compare what you do to what the literature does without reading the literature?

  • Brian
  • I’m saying you cannot compare it to elemental aluminum. And you should ignore all studies with ties to DwoskinFoundation.

  • tomonthebay

    Hardly. He has blown you out of the water repeatedly.

  • Try to keep up, Shay. I posted the reasoning.

  • shay simmons

    Yes, you did. Thanks for the laugh – I sent it on to my sister the RN.

  • For reference, the average apple weighs somewhere in the 70-100 gram range.

    7e+7 – 1e+8

    In other words, fricking apples become too heavy for standard notation when we use micrograms.

    Or how about the proverbial feather? A chicken’s feather weighs about 0.0082 grams. That’s 8.2 milligrams or a whopping 8200 micrograms. And it’s a bloody feather.

  • shay simmons

    “Public health without medicine,” obviously.

  • Dan Bland

    After the movie VAXXED. A few of the VAXXED team bought a bus and toured the country. They also went outside the country some. On this tour they interviewed parents who say their children developed autism from vaccines. The interviews were recorded and I have seen probably 50 of something like 3,000 videos. Most say the same thing. The parents took their children in for vaccines and within hours after their children develop symptoms such as fevers, seizures, horrific diarrhea, vomiting, shrill screaming as if they are in terrible pain etc. Most take their children to ER and are treated with simple treatments like Tylenol but over time the children lose ability to talk, stop all eye contact, beat their heads against walls and eventually get diagnosed with autism.

  • “”Public health without medicine,” obviously.”

    Exactly, which is why the authors of these articles go out of their way to mention this factor.

    Drugs aren’t saving us no matter how much the pharmaceutical industry would like you to believe that they are.

  • all of your sources are heavily biased. You are the perfect sheep for the angry anti-vax wolves

  • Oh, are we doing this nonsense?

    Okay, it’s “learnt”, not “learned.”

  • JGC

    What we are actually seeing is an increasing number of individuals receiving a new diagnosis of having an autism spectrum disorder over time. It has not been demonstrated that this corresponds to an increase in the number of individuals who are autistic in the population over that same time.

    The actual evidence argues that this is not the case, and that the increase in the number of diagnoses is the result of other factors, including broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnostic substitution, increased surveillance, changes in reporting practices, etc.

    With respect to the last, a recent Danish study found “Changes in reporting practices can account for most (60%) of the increase in the observed prevalence of ASDs in children born from 1980 through 1991 in Denmark.” (PMID:25365033).

    It appears that it isn’t that there are many more autistic individuals in the general population than there were previously, but that we’ve gotten much better at detecting and accurately diagnosing ones we previously missed.

  • *compare?

  • Dan Bland

    You are lying just by saying they are lying. Yea I just called you a liar. Maybe y’all are beginning to make me mad.

  • Dan Bland

    Which source is biased?

  • You should read his vaccine court record. He failed to prove vaccines cause autism AND his child had developmental delays early in.

  • I covered some of this in my blog on Vaxxed. So what’s the excuse for the rest of the world?

  • Other studies have shown that individuals previously receiving a dx of Intellectual disability – now are moving to ASD spectrum

  • I didn’t flag it as spam. Burden of proof is in you to demonstrate any med school uses it

  • JGC

    “On this tour they interviewed parents who say their children developed autism from vaccines.”

    How did these parents determine it actually was the vaccines received that caused their child’s autism?

    From your description, their belief does seem to be based on nothing more than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. “After” is not synonymous with “because of”.

  • stupid phone. Fixed. Thanks

  • JGC

    I’m not aware that anyone is injecting anyone with aluminum.
    Perhaps you’re talking instead about being inoculated with vaccines whose formulation includes aluminum salts as adjuvants?

  • oh hey, that links to my blog in the first sentence. Nice.

  • Great! In that case, you’ll have no trouble showing me the FULL ORIGINAL DECISION where ANDREW WAKEFIELD was exonerated, right? Full as in not an excerpt, original as in the actual decision/case and not John Stone or anybody else’s interpretation of it, Wakefield as in Wakefield and not Walker-Smith or anyone else.

  • Dan Bland

    Yehuda Shoenfeld is the Incumbent of the Laura Schwarz-Kipp Chair of Research of Autoimmune Diseases, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel Aviv University in Tel Aviv, Israel. He is also Founder of the Center for Autoimmune Diseases, both at the Sheba Medical Center in Tel Hashomer, Israel.

  • Dan Bland

    Description of the book: Description

    In light of the discovery of Autoimmune Syndrome Induced by Adjuvants, or ASIA, Vaccines and Autoimmunity explores the role of adjuvants – specifically aluminum in different vaccines – and how they can induce diverse autoimmune clinical manifestations in genetically prone individuals.

    Vaccines and Autoimmunity is divided into three sections; the first contextualizes the role of adjuvants in the framework of autoimmunity, covering the mechanism of action of adjuvants, experimental models of adjuvant induced autoimmune diseases, infections as adjuvants, the Gulf War Syndrome, sick-building syndrome (SBS), safe vaccines, toll-like receptors, TLRS in vaccines, pesticides as adjuvants, oil as adjuvant, mercury, aluminum and autoimmunity. The following section reviews literature on vaccines that have induced autoimmune conditions such as MMR and HBV, among others. The final section covers diseases in which vaccines were known to be the solicitor – for instance, systemic lupus erythematosus – and whether it can be induced by vaccines for MMR, HBV, HCV, and others.

    Edited by leaders in the field, Vaccines and Autoimmunity is an invaluable resource for advanced students and researchers working in pathogenic and epidemiological studies.

  • Or a PMID or DOI or case cite (e.g. Loving v. Virginia) will do just as well, right?

  • JGC

    “wanting safer vaccines”
    Vaccines are already orders of magnitude safer than the infectious diseases they protect against–exactly how safe would be safe enough to meet your approval?

  • I have seen about 100+ of the videos and they are all mostly about autism or SIDS, both of which are not caused by vaccines.

    Some of the videos are pretty irrational, like the heavily tatooed lady who’s concerned about vaccines toxins because her teenage daughter got depressed after puberty (coincidentally, also after HPV vax). Or the boy who got transverse myelitis 17 days after this 3rd HPV vax. He eventually took his own life after spending two years listening to everyone tell him his life was now meaningless.

    Again, read the records of some of these cases and you start to see their stories have major holes. JB Handley, for example, kept changing the timeline of his son’s symptoms. A friend found old interviews and new ones and put them in a video. His story keeps changing because it is not factual. He wants his son’s autism to be caused by vaccines but there is simply not good evidence to demonstrate that.

  • JGC

    Yes: we’re seeing diagnostic substitution, where autistic people previously diagnosed as other than autistic (most often in the 50’s and 60’s as ‘mentally retarded’) are being accurately diagnosed as being on the spectrum.

  • No, Andy and Brian were lying. The knew that Brian’s study had been retracted and there is no evidence anywhere that there are 250% more African American boys with autism. They lied. Why did they keep saying the data had been destroyed when it was always in the MADDS database?

  • How do you ascertain hostility online? Is it because we are tired of the same old tropes antivaxers dish out, tired of saying, 4 years on now, that the “cdc whistleblower” issue is nonsense? Are you confusing being criticized for hostility?

  • Dan Bland

    The VICP has only provided funds to one autistic individual that I’m aware of her name was Hannah Poling. Spelling might be wrong on the name her father is a doctor. You can imagine why the VICP won’t compensate families with autistic individuals. If they did it would let the cat out of the bag so to speak and VICP would be in deep financial trouble. VICP has compensated many families with children who have the same symptoms as autism such as encephalopathy.

  • Dan Bland

    I just know I’m right and you’re wrong. How well do you take criticism.

  • Why does the American Alzheimer’s association say there is no connection between aluminum and alzheimer’s?

  • How do you know who’s right and who’s wrong?

  • I take criticism with a thoughtful eye. I look for proof I am wrong. Vaxxed is not proof of anything other than Andy Wakefield is a liar.

  • JoeFarmer

    After all your posts on this thread, I have to wonder what your motivation is. It certainly can’t be a desire to demonstrate knowledge, because every single post you’ve made is full of factual errors.

    Perhaps you enjoy looking like a fool? If so, carry on.

  • Dan Bland

    All of this was taken in front of Congress. The whistle blower admitted that all the authors trashed the data. They then published without that data. Why would Thompson have called Hooker so remorseful he said, “I have great shame now”. Every time he sees a kid with autism.

  • Yeah, what are the girls doing on that bus in that film if Thompson is right? How about the non-AA children of either sex? And again, where was the causative link demonstrated?

  • Dan Bland

    I tried yesterday and apparently his coauthor was exonerated.

  • shay simmons

    A BAILII cite would be even better.

  • Dan Bland

    The bus wasn’t on the film. Try getting your question more clear.

  • shay simmons

    What was the morbidity rate for measles before 1963, again?

  • Dan Bland

    Ok, I’ve shared enough info here. I’ll be on my way and won’t be back. Have fun looking at each other. Byeee.

  • shay simmons

    How did these parents or their pediatricians determine it actually was a vaccine/vaccines that caused their child’s autism and which ones?

  • They can’t

  • shay simmons

    “Ok, I’ve shared enough info here. I’ll be on my way and won’t be back.”

    Translation: drawing Thorsen like a .45 clearly is not working.

  • Good point. I tried to rephrase things in the middle of posting and butchered it.


    What are the autistic girls doing on the Vaxxed bus? I mean, we can agree that their autism isn’t a vaccine injury per William Thompson….right? And the same thing for the non-AA kids of either sex?

  • The autism omnibus established that autism is not a vaccine injury. Hanna Poling was a very special case. But, the special master did pay extra careful attention to Hooker’s case, producing a 50+ page document that is brilliant. You should read it. You can find a link in here.

    I don’t think the court is purposely not compensating for lack of funds. The trust fund currently has $3,768,655,417.55 as its balance. If they found vaccines caused autism, they would have pulled those vaccines from the market. They have pulled five vaccines, in my 50 year lifetime. So, the conspiracy theories don’t hold up.

  • ASIA is not accepted as valid by the medical establishment.

  • I asked for a full original decision exonerating Wakefield and not anybody else.

    How is his coauthor (as in someone else) relevant?

  • They can never answer why unvaccinated kids get autism

  • Yes, we all know

  • Again, find me the documentation that William Thompson verified those are his exact words.

  • There was no fraud. The data was never destroyed. This was simply a difference of opinion, which is exactly what Thompson said in his one and only official statement on the issue.

  • Correct. There is no verification that the words Posey spoke are actually Thompson’s. It is likely Posey got those words from Hooker and Wakefield.

  • Eh, I think it can be easy to miss things with very young children quite innocently purely because… well, frankly, anyone who still dribbles on himself doesn’t make the ideal dinner guest to begin with.

  • Posey read his statement to some members of Congress during a break period. Likely, the room was fairly empty. It was meaningless posturing.

    The story goes that Thompson and the other scientists put the data in a trash can. Think about this logically. In 2004, data would have been all over the CDC servers. And, they would not have trashed any data. They would have shred and recycled it. But, the data was never destroyed. It came from the Metro Atlanta Developmental Disabilities database and was always in there. It never left. It is illogical that none of the scientists had the data stored on their computers. The whole story is ridiculous. Too far fetched to be real.

    Also, we don’t have verification that any of those tapes are truly Thompson. So, they cannot be used as evidence of anything.

  • JGC

    You need to reread Burbacher: his study confirmed Picichero’s previous study finding thimerosal leaves the body rapidly
    From Burbacher: “The initial and terminal half-life of Hg in blood after thimerosal exposure was 2.1 and 8.6 days, respectively, which are significantly shorter than the elimination half-life of Hg after MeHg exposure at 21.5 days.”

  • Mike Stevens

    No you fool.
    Look at these screenshots, then you can apologise to me:

    This one clearly indicates we were discussing the thimerosal burden.
    Then you responded with this (which shows you confused your own thimerosal percentage with the flu uptake percentage):

    I then had to point out YOUR confusion over this… don’t accuse me of being the one who is confused. As for your exhortation for me to “pay attention”, it is clear the one who wasn’t paying attention was you. You might have ADHD. Probably you’ll claim a vaccine caused it.

  • I urge you to read this entire blog post, and all its links, very carefully. Todd has been keeping a running record of this issue since it first broke FOUR years ago.

  • Then you’ll have no problem giving me an example of say, 12 vaccines with aluminum in them, right? Remember aluminum is an element.

  • Mike Stevens

    Upvote from me!

  • Oh, dear, you know this and you missed the funniest part in a gallows humour kind of way?

    Okay….here goes.

    MMR protects against Measles, Mumps and Rubella.
    In protecting against Rubella, it protects against CRS
    CRS is one known cause of autism.

  • First off, no, toxins are produced by living things.

    Second, what is your evidence that anything in vaccines is neurotoxic/a neurotoxicant at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination? Be specific.

    Third, what is your excuse for Gadad et al?

  • JGC

    “The whistle blower admitted that all the authors trashed the data”

    By “trashed the data” do you mean they destroyed the redundant paper copies of the information maintained permanently in electronic form, just as is done with every other study addressing any other product/concern?

    Because that’s all that was done.

  • Being open-minded is merely the willingness to assess the evidence for a claim; it’s not the willingness to accept a claim without any. The term for the latter is “gullibility.”

  • JGC

    Simple: if they agree with him they’re right, and if they disagree they’re wrong.

  • Eh. That question alone is kind of….iffy. Because lung cancer and smokers and blah blah.

    What’s more interesting is that they can never answer where all the extra autistic kids from vaccination are.


  • birth cohort was 4 million. deaths (mostly due to malnutrition from poverty) were ~450, if memory serves.

    “Between 1900 and 1963, the mortality rate of measles dropped from 13.3 per 100,000 to 0.2 per 100,000 in the population, due to advancements in living conditions, nutrition, and health care—a 98% decline (Fig. 1).”

    The measles vaccine was introduced in 1963.

    So 0.2 per 100,000.

  • Well, there might be more autistic individuals in the general population due to social changes but other than that minor nitpick, yeah.

  • JGC

    I don’t know this at all–and until such time you can offer enough actual evidence this is the case to counter all the evidence that the increase in diagnoses is a function of our improved ability to detect and accurately diagnose people with autism spectrum disorders who previously were missed or diagnosed incorrectly as suffering from some other developmental disorder I can’t know this.

  • shay simmons

    And what is it with this insistence among antivaxers to constantly label every antivax medical person as “the best — in the UK”, or “One of the world’s best —“? Quite bizarre.

    Particularly since a PubMed search on their names so often comes up snake eyes.

    One would think the world’s best (insert discipline here) would be more open to sharing their research with other scientists.

  • JGC

    Is there a sound scientific reason we should reject the conclusions of studies he’s listed as a minor contributor to?

  • shay simmons

    I didn’t ask you for the mortality rate.

  • The discussion was about the KIGGS study, not the KIGGS-derivative survey They’re two different things.

  • shay simmons

    “British and Irish Legal Information Institute (BAILII). A sophisticated searchable database of online primary legal resources, updated daily …”

  • shay simmons

    It’s where the REAL ruling (ie, from Justice Mitting and not by way of Age of Autism) on Walker Smith can be found.

  • shay simmons


  • JGC

    The CDC and other public and private public health agencies have studied vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, by means of large scale retrospective epidemiologic studies.
    They haven’t studied vaccines with and without aluminum because vaccines formulations don’t include elemental aluminum. Some include aluminum salts as adjuvants, but those adjuvants have had their safety profiles independently determined and are known not to be toxic or otherwise harmful at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination.

  • JGC

    “Exley is an expert on aluminum. He has studied aluminum for 35 years”

    Logical fallacy alert: your argument from authority is duly noted and rejected.

  • No, you haven’t shared enough info. You haven’t shared the full original exoneration of Wakefield. You haven’t addressed the autistic girls on the Vaxxed Bus or the non-AA kds of either sex on the Vaxxed Bus. Nor have you addressed any of my questions about Vaxxed.

  • shay simmons

    When I was in grade school/jr high, a neighbor’s son who was institutionalized would come home for short visits. We were told he was mentally retarded but since his behavior was marked by attempts to communicate (and be very frustrated by his failures) with the rest of us kids, I wonder.

    When he reached puberty he became a very large, strong young man indeed — and we never saw him anymore.

  • I’ve seen that one, too. Really, you should not take movies on their face. Do some research into who made it and why and try to verify their claims. You will find this one falls very short, just like Vaxxed. There is literally no way this guy had heavy metal poisoning from a tetanus vax.

  • Yesterday, I explained how Walker-Smith got his medical license back by blaming everything on Wakefield.

  • The point is where are the 250% more African American boys with autism, as the movie implies? Where are the girls with autism? Why are their unvaxed people with autism?

  • You gave no evidence and now you give up. Classic.

  • They don’t often come up snake eyes. That would require them to have two publications.

  • Sorry, I read “mortality.”

    The measles vaccine did reduce *some* morbidity—which is why I say that vaccines in the US are used not for mortality but for morbidity.

    On the flipside, the MMR produces seizures 5x more than the measles. This makes sense because it is three live-viruses being injected at the same time while wild measles is almost always encountered alone.

    And, overall, PIC demonstrates that the vaccine may not be safer than the measles itself.

  • Why are kids that are unvaccinated diagnosed with ASD?

  • tomonthebay

    Shared lots of misinformation. You won’t be missed.

  • tomonthebay

    ASIA doesn’t exist.

  • tomonthebay

    Videos don’t prove anything danny.

  • tomonthebay

    Exley, the king of retracted articles.

  • JGC

    Dan, none of that is true. Wakefield was a transplant surgeon, whose work using an small intestine model for transplantation sparked an interest in experimental GI surgery. There’s no evidence he was ever viewed as one of the UK’s best GI surgeons.
    He wasn’t approached by parents of autistic children: those parent were referred to him by a legal team trying to create evidence for a lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers.
    In multiple live press conferences Wakefield di speak in support of an association between MMR vaccination and ASD’s.

  • “Why are kids that are unvaccinated diagnosed with ASD?

    There are six known phenotypes for autism. All of them cause neuroinflamation, which is also known as microglial activation i.e. a chronic form of brain inflammation. Thus, anything that causes the brain to be inflamed can lead to autism and anything that can calm the inflammation will help alleviate symptoms. This is why the drug minocycline is currently in trials (to reduce brain inflammation in people with autism).

    Here are the main phenotypes we have identified thus far.

    1. Intoxication: Al, Hg, Pb and other metals cause microglial activation as they travel to and settle in the brain.

    2. Bacterial infections: “inflammation of intestinal mucosa, leads to the introduction of bacterial components, including neurotoxins, into the bloodstream, creating oxidative stress as well as microvascularities, especially affecting meningeal vessels, and finally neuronal damage.” — Luc Montagnier, 2008 Nobel Prize Winner for discovering HIV

    3. Viral infections: Injecting live viruses causes some portion to settle in the brain and stomach. They excrete nagalese thereby reducing the child’s native production of GcMAF and inflammation never reduces. About 15% of autistics are chronically infected with the live viruses that were injected into them (primarily MMR).

    4. Allergic: Al that isn’t being fully excreted causes IL-33 and IgE production; helminth therapy helps with this phenotype.

    5. Mitochondrial: This is what got Hannah Poling (mitochondrial damage likely occurred from an earlier shot containing Hg). The mitochondria provide energy to our cells, and are necessary for the Kreb’s cycle, fatty acid oxidation, metabolism of amino acids, and oxidative phosphorylation.

    Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child with autism. J Child Neurol, 2006, Poling et al

    6. Autoimmune: One study found that mothers with autoimmune disorders (such as celiac disease, type 1 diabetes, or rheumatoid arthritis) are three times more likely to have autistic kids; other studies uniformly show elevated risk. Vaccinations in the children, which cause an autoimmune response, create the same problem. The likely source of the attack is molecular mimicry of the measles hemagglutinin but vaccines contain many proteins that can produce cross-reactions.

    Toward an immune-mediated subtype of autism spectrum disorder.

    *Anything* that attacks/disrupts the brain (including glyphosate) and causes chronic microglial activation will produce interleukin-6, which Pineda et al. found was “necessary and sufficient” to cause autism. If the brain also excretes IL-1ß the brain becomes epileptic. Many people with autism also have seizures (about 1/3).

    Maternal immune activation promotes hippocampal kindling epileptogenesis in mice.

    There is even a case report of a 14 year-old girl who regressed into autism. I don’t remember what the cause was but it was clearly an environmental cause.

  • Verna Lang

    “syringe is drawn from the very bottom the dose may be higher” What sort of quack do you go to that you have seen them using a long needle to pull the contents of a vial from the bottom? That’s not the way it’s done. You use a syringe with a short fine bore needle, hold the vial upside down and insert the needle through the septum to draw out the dose. You are so wrong you have surpassed wrong by several orders of magnitude.

  • Your information is so inaccurate and you clearly know nothing about autism. There are NO known causes at this point.

  • JGC

    The compensation to Hannah Polling, however, was not given on the basis of any finding that the vaccines she received caused her to develop autism. She was compensated instead for a table injury instead, with Special Master George L. Hastings Jr. explicitly writing “In Poling v. HHS, the presiding special master clarified that the family was compensated because the Respondent conceded that the Poling child had suffered a Table Injury–not because the Respondent or the special master had concluded that any vaccination had contributed to causing or aggravating the child’s ASD (autism spectrum disorder),”

  • Shoshana

    I’m not referencing studies with ties to the Dwoskin Foundation and I’m not discussing elemental aluminum. I’m specifically referencing studies on aluminum adjuvant, the kind used in vaccines.

  • Brian

    How cute. You were caught repeating false information, and when your lies were exposed, you throw a tantrum. Perhaps you need a time out.

  • shay simmons

    You are right. Kudos for having a better grasp of gambling slang than I do.

  • Brian

    If by “*some* morbidity” you actually mean 99.9% morbidity.

    Measles incidence was unchanged for at least fifty years, and then plummeted, permanently, within just a few years of the vaccine.

    Thanks vaccines!

  • JGC

    That wouldn’t by any chance be the same CDC ‘whistle-blowing’ scientist who, after Hooker and Wakefield released phone conversations they had secretly recorded, released an official statement that included “I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits” ?

  • Brian

    And… as expected, you ran away when proven wrong.

    No worries, when you try to make these same false statements again in a couple months, you’ll be proven wrong again.

  • He never can answer any questions. And Angel doesn’t know anything about autism

  • Not strictly accurate. CRS is one known cause of autism.

  • kfunk937

    It’s not too late to repair the spellnig. You had me looking for hypnotic things, so I was thinking mebbe that salt mine in Poland or some trendy, hypnotic lamps. ;-)Btw, hi. *waves*

  • Some conditions are known to have autistic-like properties. In truth, I believe autism is a blanket term used to describe a set of behaviors. I think as science learns more – we will know what is causing what. My son has hydrocephalus – and I believe many of his traits stem directly from fluid on the brain. Many children with hydro exhibit signs of autism. His doctors say there is a medical reason for his issues

  • JGC

    “On the flipside, the MMR produces seizures 5x more than the measles”

    Uhhh—no. The claim, from Physicians for Informed Consent (an anti-vax organization) asserts “A more serious side effect is seizure, which occurs in about 1 in 640 children vaccinated with MMR^2—about five times more often than seizure from measles infection.^3”

    Follow the superscript: 2 points to Vestergaard et al, MMR vaccination and febrile seizures: evaluation of susceptible subgroups and long-term prognosis, 2004 which found

    “The RR of febrile seizures increased during the 2 weeks following MMR vaccination (2.75; 95% confidence interval [CI], 2.55-2.97), and thereafter was close to the observed RR for nonvaccinated children. The RR did not vary significantly in the subgroups of children that had been defined by their family history of seizures, perinatal factors, or socioeconomic status. At 15 to 17 months, the risk difference of febrile seizures within 2 weeks following MMR vaccination was 1.56 per 1000 children overall (95% CI, 1.44-1.68), 3.97 per 1000 (95% CI, 2.90-5.40) for siblings of children with a history of febrile seizures, and 19.47 per 1000 (95% CI, 16.05-23.55) for children with a personal history of febrile seizures. ”

    and concluded

    “MMR vaccination was associated with a transient increased rate of febrile seizures but the risk difference was small even in high-risk children”.

    Superscript 3 points to another page on the PIC website, which notes simply “~3 to 3.5 in 10,000 or 0.03–0.035% of measles cases result in seizure”.

    So how did the PIC arrive at a value of 1 in 640 febrile seizures in children receiving the MMR? They confused risk difference and incidence rate, and simply divided 1000 by 1.56.

    So we get claims based on transient increase in risk, especially in high risk populations, when compared it to overall risk in the general population, while getting the math wrong.

  • Mike Stevens

    You seem to think the kidneys are part of the digestive system…
    Which seems to go some way to explaining your medical/biological ignorance.
    Do you plan on teaching this alternative anatomy and physiology in your vaccine course, aangel?

  • Mike Stevens

    Make up your mind.. do the vials deliver 25mcg per dose or not?
    If some thimerosal gravitates to the bottom of unshaken vials and some vaccine withdrawals have more than 25mcg in them, then the rest must have less than 25mcg, obviously.

  • Can you reference any studies proving your points that have no ties to Dwoskin

  • Did you delete my comment again? You ask a question but then don’t want to hear the answer.

  • The Not So Handsome Stranger.

    Welcome back and good to see you.

  • JGC

    And you know what, aangel? If you had any evidence whatsoever that thimerosal, at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood or seasonal flu vaccinations, was toxic or otherwise harmful I would easily be persuaded to share your concern about its use in vaccine formulations.

    As things stand, however…

  • kfunk937

    *waves* again, with a {{{you}}}

  • Raging Bee

    So, no actual medical professionals saying the kids’ autism was caused by vaccines? Got it.

  • Statistics, Motherf–k-r!
    Do you speak it!?
    I strongly suggest you get that high school kid to explain why your laughable lack of math/statistics knowledge is making you look like a damn idiot.
    Hint – Look up confidence interval and try to really understand what that is and what it means about the true value of a metric.
    You are in way, way over your head.

  • FallsAngel

    Hi! Good to see you!

  • FallsAngel

    You are responding to aangel, no?

  • shay simmons

    If they trashed the data why was Brian Hooker able to request it and get it from the CDC for his retracted study?

  • shay simmons
  • shay simmons
  • JoeFarmer

    It sounds so simple when you put it that way. It’s almost as if the anti-vaxxers have absolutely no proof. Oh, wait…

  • JoeFarmer

    One of the more looney anti-vaxxers, Cia Parker, contends that a vaccinated parent can cause their unvaccinated child to get teh autizms. With absolutely no remotely believable medical evidence, of course.

  • I never saw it – I think it got spammed out

  • kfunk937

    Check out his quora profile, here: I think it mentions his website (called vaccinecourse, not yet operational). Styles himself an expert, at the peril of irony meters everywhere.

  • Patheos again, then. It says it’s in moderation when I use the Disqus interface.

    I’m done here, too much censorship, per the NY Time article below. Note that the title of the print version of this article is “The Censorship of Vaccine Science.”

  • I think they are getting filtered out for links. One of the filters in all of our forums is they do tag for high rep comments with links.

  • No one is censoring you for your opinion. You are including TOO MANY links which automatically gets reviewed as spam.

  • Peter Harris

    BS, it seems you don’t have the courage to answer certain questions, rather easier to delete.

  • Your comments get deleted for calling me names

  • shay simmons

    The pharmacokinetics from nanoparticles in vaccines are completely different. Aluminum from vaccines are not stored in blood. They are preferentially taken up by macrophages, travel primarily through lymph and are deposited in the tissues and organs of the body (again, not blood), including the spleen and brain.


  • The comment has a big red “REMOVED” message in the Disqus interface.

    And if you never saw my response, why did you write: “Your information is so inaccurate and you clearly know nothing about autism. There are NO known causes at this point.” given that I wrote “There are six known causes…” in response to your question?

    It sure looks like you are not being truthful.

  • Peter Harris

    Ha ha ha ha Ha, of course, more lies.

    I simply asked you, why you consider the movie Vaxxed as horrendous.

    And what about the others here, whose posts you also delete?

  • I have no idea what you are talking about. How about you move on – and stop arguing. You are welcome to keep posting without so many links. Please move on

  • those all got flagged or spammed. Someone in this forum doesn’t like you. Every single post you make is flagged

  • Peter Harris

    Yes, you, because you cannot grasp simple medical issues.

    You only allow your fellow fake doctors to post here.

  • kfunk937

    What likely also runs in your family is the MTHFR gene mutation.

    Not necessarily, and it’s pretty arrogant on your part to suggest that it is. Besides, that claim seems to be, in most cases, nothing more than the most recent goalpost shift du jour adopted by anti-vaccine activists, and one much beloved of quacks.See, for instance, Dubious MTHFR mutation testing and MTHFR gene mutations are the root of all health problems. Keep in mind that MTHFR single nucleotide polymorphisms–of which there are many, including both deletions and repetitions–are fairly common, and that although they have been linked to some conditions, they are often asymptomatic. Referring to MTHFR SNPs as “the MTHFR mutation” reveals your ignorance, or at minimum, sloppy thinking and a great example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

  • JoeFarmer


    Either facebook or rolling the bones, I’d suspect.

  • JoeFarmer

    “…at the peril of irony meters everywhere.”

    You are a master of understatement.

  • Peter – I am asking you to move on. If you continue, you will be banned.

  • Peter – move on – or move out.

  • shay simmons

    Gee, I was hoping for something a little more science-y. Like the entrails of an owl, maybe.

  • Shoshana

    Movsas 2013 injected Al adjuvant into preemie infants and found that after 24hrs, there was no serum rise OR urine excretion of aluminum. All we know from this is that it wasn’t detected in the blood and it didn’t leave the body (i.e. high absorption). Where did it go?

    Animal studies also show that injected aluminum is mostly retained in the body, such as Flarend 1997 which found that most of the AlOH and AlPO4 was retained in rabbits 28 days post vaccination (94% and 78%). They also detected alum adjuvant in the brain, spleen, liver, lymph nodes and heart (i.e. stored in tissues)

    Shaw 2007 & 2009 (these studies were NOT funded by Dwoskin) found motor neuron degeneration in mice injected with aluminum hydroxide in both studies.

    Rimaniol 2004 and Eisenbarth 2008 showed that human macrophages become loaded with aluminum when exposed to AlOH.

    Gherardi 2001 (funded by WHO and CDC) found long-term biopersistance of aluminum adjuvants in deltoid tissue of MMF patients 3-8 years after vaccine injection.

    Khan 2013 and Gherardi 2017 DID receive *partial funding from Dwoskin, but mostly from other sources. Are you really not even going to bother to read them even though it made it through the peer-review process?

    For your part, do you have any studies you can reference that DON’T refer back to the FDA’s Mitkus 2011 mouse study on ingested water soluble aluminum that was then extrapolated to fit a cumulative dose curve for an adult male human for injected AlOH aluminum without adjusting for weight for infants?

  • lisu

    I was an unvaccinated autistic child. I am now a vaccinated autistic adult.

    I like being alive. I like being autistic. I used to teach university students how to program, and I was good at it partly because I am autistic. I took my passion for programming, and my passion for learning, and I used them. My students enjoyed themselves, I think. I was, and am, incredibly proud of what they did.

    Autism makes me who I am. I think I’d find it terminally dull to be non-autistic. I wouldn’t see the patterns in the world around me. I wouldn’t feel so good when I get the sensory input just right. My world would be diminished if I didn’t see it the way I do.

    So, dear anti-vaxxers: you can’t be bothered listening to your children. You’re looking for someone to blame for them not being the way you wanted them to be. You think their life – and my life too – is worth less because we’re different. So fuck you. Your autistic child is valuable. Your autistic child is trying to talk to you. I hope that once you’re gone, they find someone who listens.

  • Brian

    “It has not been proven that the MMR vaccine is safer than measles. ”

    If that’s what PIC believes, then they are crackpots. Do 25% get hospitalized from the vaccine, and 1 in 2000 people die?

    Hint: No.

  • You will find the neuro-divergent peeps over here!

  • tomonthebay

    Aangel just doesn’t really have a clue.

  • Peter – stop. You have been asked to MOVE ON. Either add value or leave.

  • add value or leave

  • Either add value – or leave. Mocking every single comment is ridiculous. You just showed up here and are being rude to everyone. Carry on. ONe more warning and you are done

  • We aren’t asking me questions. You are a guest on this board. Add value, contribute meaningful discussion, or go

  • Last warning

  • Good Bye, Peter. You don’t bate and egg on a moderator.

  • joe

    I myself have met Autistic kids and they are great.

  • Brian

    You posted a lot, for sure- almost one hundred comments in one day!

    Granted, you were never able to stay with any topic, getting proven wrong over and over again with each anti-vax conspiracy you threw out. Good riddance.

  • joe

    Better stop eating canned fish then. You know it’s full of Aluminium.

  • joe

    I think he is.

  • joe

    Oh shyte, just cracked a rib from laughing.

  • joe

    Yeah I think it’s called drowning.

  • joe

    The only person to destroy Wakefield WAS Wakefield.

  • Mike Stevens

    “And 99.7% of it is excreted via the kidneys because the digestive system is designed to do that.”

    You seem to think the kidneys are part of the digestive system…
    Do you plan on teaching this alternative anatomy and physiology in your vaccine course, aangel?

  • Mike Stevens


  • Can you please link to studies or PMID numbers

  • Phil

    Well I am 63 and I haven’t seen any children screaming and waving their hands wildly and bashing their heads against the wall, ever. And I don’t know of any families affected by it. Therefore epidemic refuted. I had a controls built into the extensive analysis of my life experience. I asked my wife too and she is the same.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    You mean that study with the .7% unvaxxed group? LOL, you pro-vaxxers like your junk science.

  • starskeptic

    First point – true, but to clarify : thimerosal was used as an anti-bacterial and anti-fungal agent and doesn’t have had any effect on viruses, which don’t need to be ‘alive’ to present antigens to the body.

  • Shoshana
  • Shoshana

    See thread with Kathy below.

  • Mike Stevens

    “Only 0.01-0.03 percent of aluminum from the environment (including breast milk) is bioavailable.”
    Wrong. You are at least one order of magnitude out with that.
    What you really mean is that 0.1%-0.5% of ingested aluminium is absorbed (and bioavailable).

    “100 percent is bioavailable from vaccines.”
    Wrong. Flarend’s studies showed that the amount that is bioavailable after injection is 17% for Al hydroxide and 51% for Al phosphate.

    “The tiny amount of aluminum that is bioavailable from ingestion is water soluble and leaves the body via the kidneys.”
    Wrong-ish.” The aluminium is around 90% bound to a carrier protein (transferrin) rather than “dissolving” in the blood.

    “The pharmacokinetics from nanoparticles in vaccines are completely different.”
    Wrong. Vaccines do not have nano-particulate aluminium (Though the micro-particles can be broken down into smaller nanoparticles with high speed centrifugation in the lab).
    “Nanoparticles” are a myth propagated by the antivax lobby, who have had to resort to this unevidenced explanation to try and back up their wild claims: “It’s all because of magicky-nano-quantum stuff!”

    “Aluminum from vaccines are not stored in blood. They are preferentially taken up by macrophages, travel primarily through lymph and are deposited in the tissues and organs of the body (again, not blood), including the spleen and brain.”
    Wrong. Aluminium from vaccines is deposited in the muscle, where it initially remains, with most then being taken into the interstitium, and is taken up by transferrin or ingested by macrophages which migrate through lymphatics.
    Lymphatics ultimately drain through the thoracic duct back into the venous circulation, so it is quite untrue to state that it travels through the lymph to other organs. You are also wrong to imply it goes to the brain and spleen. Most is excreted via the kidneys, and the tiny amount that remains will be preferentially stored in the following sequence: Bone>lung>kidney>spleen>liver>heart>lymphnode>brain. Note that of the organs where aluminium is deposited, the brain gets the smallest exposure.

    “Can you correct that part?”
    I don’t see what there was to correct. Your own narrative about pharmacokinetics of aluminium borders on total fantasy, so why should anyone choose to substitute facts with fiction?

  • JoeFarmer

    That article doesn’t say what you think it says. The title of the article you linked to, “Anti-Vaccine Activists Have Taken Vaccine Science Hostage”, should have been a hint.

    You really have a lot of trouble processing information.

  • Are you saying there’s a study with an unvaxxed group?

  • sabelmouse

    nobody says shedding causes autism. seriously!

  • Yep, you might want to read up on the Cedillo NVICP case for the innocent version of this and the Hooker case for the less innocent version of this.

  • sabelmouse

    not severely disabled then. more like i am ok with limping, let’s not prevent paralyses.

  • please don’t minimize disabilities. Paralysis is a risk of vaccines – but rare. VERY rare.

  • sabelmouse

    i’m looking at a whole line of user blocked. improves the page:)

  • lisu

    Oh, I’m all in favour of preventing paralysis. That’s why I’m vaccinated against polio, which causes it. You know, unlike vaccines and autism.

    You also have no idea how severely disabled I am, so let’s not make assumptions, shall we?

  • Users that start fights with moderators are banned. I give everyone a chance to move on – if they don’t – they are banned

  • Mike Stevens

    Welcome spanking brand new antivax comment profile!
    Who were you before, I wonder? …VP maybe?

    “Movsas 2013 injected Al adjuvant into preemie infants and found that after 24hrs, there was no serum rise OR urine excretion of aluminum…. Where did it go?”
    The body contains a fair bit of aluminium (up to 50,000mcg). As you have noted, aluminium can be stored in organs, with over 75% being in bone and lungs. Brain is the least likeliest destination, thanks to the BBB. But the point is that the vaccine-derived aluminium didn’t result in a significant uptick in blood levels, due to it’s relative insignificance and its low bioavailability, since it is initially retained in muscle and only slowly makes its way into the circulation.
    If you pee in a swimming pool, it doesn’t suddenly overflow.

    “Animal studies also show that injected aluminum is mostly retained in the body” Well, aluminium which is retained in the body (which is a small proportion of the total exposure) may be stored, but the brain is the least affected organ and has been found to have the lowest quantity of aluminium in it, rather than the most (which you imply by mentioning it at the top of your list).
    75% of retained aluminium is stored in the bone and the lung. Other organs like the kidney and the spleen contain more than 100 times the amount that is stored in the brain.

    “Shaw 2007 & 2009..”
    Shaw’s work is tainted and has to be regarded as unreliable, since he was found to have published deliberately-manipulated results in a more recent (now retracted) paper.

    “Rimaniol 2004 and Eisenbarth 2008 showed that human macrophages become loaded with aluminum when exposed to AlOH.”
    …and? What of it? Of course cells will take up adjuvant particles.
    It’s not toxic in the doses that infants receive in vaccines.

    “Gherardi 2001 (funded by WHO and CDC) found long-term biopersistance of aluminum adjuvants in macrophages in the deltoid tissue of MMF patients 3-8 years after vaccine injection.”
    Yeah, it can happen.
    But please note that you have previously claimed that injected aluminium is “100% bioavailable”, and that retained aluminium is stored in the brain, both of which claims are inconsistent with Gherardi’s findings.
    Do you want to tell Gherardi you think he is wrong, or shall I?

    Most of your citations either don’t say what you claim they do, or come from a highly incestuous group of antivaccine researchers (Gherardi/Shaw/Exley etc). Some of these papers have been retracted, some published in predatory pay-to-play journals, and some are funded by antivaccine organisations, but their defining feature is their self-referential nature and their reverential citation of each other’s work, as they attempt to create a repository of “antivaccine scientific” articles they can call upon.

  • sabelmouse

    blocked by me 🙂

  • sabelmouse

    strictly speaking polio doesn’t cause it, and certainly not all paralyses.
    but i am talking about the slightly neuro diverse, like me, not giving a crap about real/severe autism. not like me, cause i do.
    able to teach somewhere?!

  • lisu

    You can teach while still being severely disabled, you know. Particularly at universities, which have high-quality disability support.

  • Mike Stevens

    Some sites don’t like live URLs since they can link to nasties etc.
    Don’t tell us you have never seen a forum which frowns on live links before?

  • sabelmouse

    not while banging your head on a wall with a nappy on.

  • Mike Stevens

    These folk seem to use the Drain Doctor®.

  • sabelmouse

    i am not actually talking about paralyses but the attitudinise of the slightly disabled toward the severely disabled regarding autism.

  • sabelmouse

    some do, putting their careers on the line. doing a bruno. look where that got him. why did galileo survive?!

  • Brian

    Never underestimate the craziness that anti-vaxxers will believe.

  • Brian

    Do you accept that a majority of people with ASD are not severely disabled?

  • lisu

    I’ve done both of those things in my life. So?

  • Brian

    Galileo had clear, replicable, verifiable evidence.

    The quacks of today, who exploit the gullible and vulnerable by telling them that vaccines cause autism… don’t.

  • Shoshana

    1) I’m not anti-vaxx. I vaccinated my kids, so stop with the slurs. My babies were preemies, already had exposure to aluminum from multiples/cumulative/additives exposures in the NICU which by themselves without throwing aluminum adjuvant into the mix have already been shown to cause developmental delays . Preemies are excluded from vaccine safety studies prior to their recommendation by ACIP in this age group and many post-marketing studies show evidence of harm. I have every right to be concerned.
    2) You are correct. I was one order of magnitude off with the bioavailability of aluminum from ingested sources. The correct rate is what you shared 0.1-0.3%.
    3) 100% of vaccine aluminum IS bioavailable when it is injected. There is no doubt about that. The Flarend study shows how much is eliminated/absorbed after 28 days and at what rate. Only 6% and 22% were eliminated in the urine, which leaves us with 94% and 78% absorption. Preemies have poor kidney function so it’s reasonable to expect that they might have a harder time eliminating alum from their bodies.
    4) Aluminum only shows up in the blood when it dissolves. AlOH dissolves slower than AlPO4, so we shouldn’t expect to see much show up in the blood. Therefore, blood measures are not a particularly accurate measure of what has been absorbed or not.
    5) Not only do preemies have poor kidney functioning, but clearly there are genetically susceptible people (MMF) who can hardly eliminate aluminum adjuvant at all. If we believe in the greater good of the population, shouldn’t we be figuring out who is susceptible to these types of adverse reactions before injecting everyone indescriminantly so as to keep people out of harm’s way? Not everyone responds the same.
    6) Aluminum adjuvants DO contain nanoparticles. They increase surface area so less antigen is required in vaccine production.
    7) I am not saying ALL aluminum goes to the brain. I’m saying some of it does AND that it is stored in various organs of the body. Aluminum is a nuerotoxin. As little as 100 nanomolars can cause inflammation in neurons. Further, inflammation in the body calls MFs to the brain, so any aluminum that is stored long-term in MFs and tissues can eventually make their way to the brain in susceptible people. Clearly, not everyone has trouble eliminating aluminum, but some do.
    8) Only two of the papers I shared were partially funded by CMRSI but received most of their funding from other sources. Crepeaux 2017, for example, which found a 50-fold increase in brain aluminum content in mice. Some of the author’s later work (Gherardi, Shaw) was funded by CMRSI but not the ones I shared. All of the papers made it through the peer review process and none shared have been retracted. If you don’t think they’re credible enough to consider based on funding sources, that’s fine. But then let’s at least agree that we simply trust different sources. I don’t inherently trust pharma safety science, for example.

  • Shoshana

    See reply to previous comment.

  • Shoshana

    Please see replies to Kathy and Mike.

  • sabelmouse

    you’re missing my point. lol!

  • sabelmouse

    as an adult?

  • sabelmouse

    what a weird way to ask a question. do you accept the lord god u savior, vaccination?!
    in any case, we need separate categories.

  • sabelmouse

    that is something pro vaxxers say/believe that a/none/ex/anti vaxxers don’t.

  • lisu

    Yes. I’m semi-verbal.

  • sabelmouse

    but head banging/nappies.

  • lisu

    I already answered your question. I did my job because I was capable of communicating verbally in that situation, and because accommodations were made for me. Katie has discussed doing her job remotely due to severe PTSD on this blog. It happens, if you find someone willing to work with you.

    One of my students saw me outside class, in a situation where I spoke ‘lisu language’, and was surprised at the difference in fluency between my language in class, my language online, and my language outside class.

  • sabelmouse

    ok. it’s nice this works out sometimes.

  • Blocking moderators… Good way to get banned. (A lot of sites explicitly state that blocking mods will result in an immediate ban.)

  • let’s not make snap judgements about anyone. I think he’s explained himself enough – you need to move on

  • lisu

    I’m non-binary – they/them/their. =)

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    I know kid who is unvaxxed who doesn’t have autism. I know a kid who was vaxxed who does. That’s worthy of publishing, right?

  • sabelmouse

    what snap judgements?

  • shay simmons

    Please see Mike’s replies to you.

  • shay simmons

    Of course you don’t believe you’re crazy, sabel. That would require an iota of self-awareness.

  • shay simmons

    So a diagnosis of autism only counts if the individual is severely affected?

    All the rest can be waved away?

  • shay simmons

    Yes. We read/watch theirs but Crom forbid they should read ours.

  • shay simmons

    You missed the point when you made the point.

    Also, medical professionals who oppose vaccinations should lose their licenses. They are too dumb/gullible/greedy to be allowed anywhere near patients.

  • shay simmons

    Thanks for the tip. Mike’s done a great job of demolishing your attempts at argument.

  • shay simmons

    I should go back and count how many of those posts attempted to drag Paul Thorsen into the discussion.

  • I’ll answer that question after you answer my question.

  • shay simmons

    Is he? Or is he just a grifter who has fallen for his own patter?

  • shay simmons

    It was a tad amusing watching aangel and Dan tiptoeing around the other’s pet claim.

  • I guess the anti-vax lunatics can toss their “autism epidemic” delusion.

  • shay simmons

    I think Shaw has him beat.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    I’m not going to get into an argument with some nitwit who thinks there’s no Al in vaccines. I gotta run out now and tell people in person about the dangers of vaccines. Have fun hangin here not convincing ANTONE that they are safe.

  • shay simmons

    But not Wakefield. If you read the original decision (which can be found online) you will run across a few scathing remarks by Justice Mitting about young Master Wakefield.

  • shay simmons

    Naah. They’re happy to include higher functioning autistics when those #s “prove” there’s an epidemic.

  • tomonthebay

    Could be.

  • Shoshana

    I replied to this previously, but it appears to have been deleted. I don’t have the energy to rewrite everything I typed out only to have it deleted again. So I guess you win by censorship. I would like to ask you, though, what is your reference for the body containing 50,000 mcg of aluminum? I’ve never heard that before.

  • Mike Stevens
  • Mike Stevens

    Sabel clearly wants to inhabit an echo chamber.
    How boring.

  • Mike Stevens

    …But they would say that, wouldn’t they?
    It’s interesting how when 3000 of the very same families used the “best evidenced” examples of “vaccine-induced” autism in a class action suit (the Autism Omnibus) their cases were all dismissed for lack of any valid evidence.

  • That’s okay; you don’t need to get into an argument. You just need to answer questions.

  • chemical

    Before I finish this comment I want to point out that I’m not anti-vax. I vaccinated my child and I think aangel is a moron.

    Chelation is a legitimate medical treatment for poisoning (usually heavy metal poisoning). Such cases of poisonings are rare, but they do occur. I read about a medical case where a soldier drank wine out of a gun barrel, and wound up with tungsten poisoning. The doctors (correctly) put him through chelation to treat the condition. Chelation isn’t going to cure anything else like Alzheimer’s, or at least there isn’t any evidence that it will. Chelation won’t cure any vaccine related diseases, either, because vaccines don’t cause diseases. This is one of those things that quacks latch on to, because there is a grain of truth in it. It’s a “when you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail” situations.

  • Raging Bee

    Citations required.

  • Mike Stevens

    “Superscript 3 points to another page on the PIC website, which notes simply – 3 to 3.5 in 10,000 or 0.03–0.035% of measles cases result in seizure.”

    They clearly are referring to seizures associated with measles encephalitis, and not to febrile seizures, which are common in infants and IIRC affect up to 3% of kids with measles (ie 100 times more frequently than these antivax propagandists claim)

  • Thank you.

    Why did Movsas 2013 test for aluminum and claim vaccines have aluminum when they have aluminum salts? Aluminum is Al2O3. Aluminum hydroxide is Al(OH)3. And why did they not account for the naturally occurring aluminum in breast milk and formula? That is a very strange study.

    Shaw’s studies on Gulf War are not accepted as valid because he overdoses the mice.

    Eisinbarth 2008 This was interesting but not seeing it as a reason to avoid vaccines.

    I will try to read the rest later

  • Don’t be purposefully obtuse: the digestive system is designed to handle ionic aluminum which then is excreted through the kidneys.

    You guys think you are just *so* clever.

  • Nope, it’s a human. I’m looking through the Disqus interface at posts that did not contain links that have been deleted. They show a big red “DELETED” beside the post.

    This conversation is being censored by Patheos.

    Plus, the author responded to my comment that was deleted so clearly she read it even though she said she did not. How do you respond to a comment if it was allegedly deleted? You can’t. She is not being truthful.

  • The 59% is the vaccine coverage. That’s what those surveys discuss. The 63% number is the percentage of the peak from 1999.

    Try again, Mike.


    That’s a lie!

  • Mike Stevens

    You should be more precise. Such sloppy language is not a good sign in someone who hopes to educate others about anything, even if your plan is to miseducate them.

  • Looking through the Disqus interface, I count now TEN comments that have been deleted. Tons of censorship happening here.


    You don’t see polio cases anymore only because we don’t get live polio virus vaccines anymore!( And of course because we don’t drink water with feeces)

    All polio cases in USA in 1950’s were caused by:

    1) live polio Vaccines

    2) DDT spraying (this polio like paralysis was diagnosed as polio but it was not caused by virus that causes poliomyelitis

    If you ever talked to people from that time,they would all tell you how they feared summers,when polio epidemics was happening ( and only during the summer DDT spraying was used)

    If you don’t believe Jonas Salk who invented the polio Vaccine, when he testified and admitted that polio vaccines were cause of polio epidemics in 1950’s ,then who will you belive?


    Genetics don’t cause epidemics!

  • Raging Bee

    It came from people who are more credible than you are. So if you want to dispute it, the burden of proof is on you. Bone 4 Tuna!


    No one is scared of autism.

    We are scared of ignorance and cognitive dissonance.

    Autism is just one of many vaccine injuries not to mention DEATH!!!

  • Raging Bee

    Please learn some manners before trying to butt into a grownup conversation. Then stop sneering down at people whose conduct is far more honest and mature than yours.

  • Mike Stevens

    You were repeatedly warned by the site moderator not to post URLs, since some sites don’t like to host these because of the risks entailed.
    The moderater gave you several warnings and pleaded with you not to do it.
    You continued to do it, and some of those posts have been deleted I think.
    Now you start whining that it’s censorship?

  • They are deleting comments without links, too.

    Furthermore, it is simply a cover story to get rid of my comments since the links are almost always to PubMed articles and the CDC.

    There is nothing wrong with links to those sources. But I’m sure you’ll come up with some silly reason.

  • Mike Stevens

    Even when presented with the direct evidence of your stupidity and confusion, you double down into denial.

    Of course 59% was what the flu vaccine surveys were discussing. But we were discussing thimerosal burden, as is made abundantly clear in the screenshots and the discussion thread.
    You weren’t paying attention, and got confused, so started citing the flu uptake percentage (59%) rather than the thimerosal burden percentage compared to 1999 (63%, or so you wrongly claim).

    Just admit you made an error, which is something anyone could do, and move on. Pretending you are right when everyone can see you were wrong is just stupid. It makes people lose trust in anything you say, because they appreciate that you don’t care whether you are posting factual information or not. Winning the argument and pulling the wool over people’s eyes seem to be your primary goals, rather than finding out the facts regarding thimerosal.

  • Mike Stevens

    Maybe, I can’t see the deleted posts, so I’d have to rely on your telling me the truth.
    …But the problem is Aangel, you have proved to be an unrepentant liar (“60% thimerosal, remember?), so I will have to conclude you might be doing so again, sorry.

    That’s what happens when you sacrifice your integrity and probity on the antivax altar – people won’t trust anything you say.

  • Mike Stevens

    “They are deleting comments without links, too.”
    So you say, but can we believe you after you were shown to be lying about our thimerosal discussion? What else might you be lying about?

  • Shoshana

    You chose the higher end of the range and there’s no indication what age or weight this applies to. Aluminum bioaccumulates over time. You’d expect higher levels as people age. This can’t possibly apply to preemies who already have impairments to neurological development from exposures at lower levels than this in the NICU, for example. And it certainly doesn’t seem to make a difference to individuals who have adverse reactions like MMF to vaccines. I’d also like to see the sources studies behind the statement. They don’t reference any studies. Again, in reference to my deleted comment, I’m not anti-vaccine. I vaccinated my kids and we should be figuring out how to identify people who have adverse reactions to aluminum adjuvant (like MMF victims) before indiscriminately injecting everyone for the sake of the greater good. I’d also like to know what MMF symptoms look like in infants and preemies who are at sensitive stages of development and who cannot speak for themselves as compared to adults. It took decades of use of aluminum adjuvant before that particular adverse reaction was identified and named, and this is working with adults who can speak for themselves and describe their symptoms. I think that’s a sensible safety question to screen out people who have adverse reactions, especially when those adverse reactions can take months to years to manifest.

  • Raging Bee

    If you feel you have to improve a page by blocking people on it, maybe you should consider fucking off and finding a page more pleasant to you.

  • Raging Bee

    Try commenting without earning the berating.

  • Raging Bee

    When I was a child I hardly saw any black people. That doesn’t exactly prove black people didn’t exist back then.

    Oh, and thanks for honestly showing your childish contempt for autistic kids. Your raving anti-vax bullshit isn’t exactly based on any real desire to solve any problems, is it?

  • LOL – I haven’t been on ALL afternoon to even moderate. No comments are being deleted by Patheos. I promise you

  • Angel – if you don’t stop with this garbage you are gone. No comments are being deleted. Quit with your ridiculous conspiracy theories. I was taping a podcast ALL afternoon. Patheos isn’t deleting them either. So save the drama for the llamas. If you continue complaining about censorship – LEAVE. This is a website not the US government. Deleted comments can be for a number of reasons.

    1. arguing with the moderator
    2. blocking the moderator
    3. Attacking a poster
    4. perseverating on a topic
    5. Not following instructions of a moderator to not include links

    Disqus who hosts the forum – has rules about links. too many links will be denoted as spam. I don’t want my blog inundated with a ton of links taking people AWAY from the blog. It’s pretty simple really.

    If you continue anymore – I’m banning you. Last warning

  • You are correct!

  • I have been moderating this argument for 3 days now. I have asked all of you REPEATEDLY not to argue with, to stop asking about deleted comments, and to NOT INCLUDE LINKS. This is not a place to take people AWAY from the conversation. LInks can have viruses and support content not supported by Patheos. I don’t want LInks on this page. Quit posting the links.

    Stop arguing me about comments. I’m the moderator. This is my page. If you don’t like it – LEAVE.

    Anymore complaints about deleted comments and ANY person is banned. I’m tired of repeating myself.

  • You are welcome to be in this conversation – please get acquainted with the rules.

  • chelation is dangerous if you don’t need it – it strips the brain of even good metals you need and can lead to death

  • Nope – it ended up in spam. STOP INCLUDING LINKS! any more comments about deleted comments and you are banned

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Do vaccines contain Aluminum?

  • They contain an aluminum salts which are [elemental] aluminum to the exact same extent that sodium chloride is a silvery grey metal that will explode should you decide to add it to your soup.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    And your proof that the specific aluminum salts that are in vaccines aren’t harmful is…..? (please don’t say Mitkus if you want to keep this conversation going.)

  • Shoshana

    There was only one reference to a pubmed study to correct Mike’s comment about nanoparticulate aluminum which he clearly saw because he went back and edited his comment to make the correction. Is there a way to reinstate the comment? I can delete the scientific reference and replace it with (author, year). It made some important points and shouldn’t be lost to the discussion.

  • We can talk about this after you have addressed the questions I asked you.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    That’s all right, I already know the answer to my question.

  • Shoshana

    The blog post you shared is in reference to an entirely different Shaw study, not the 2007 and 2009 studies. It does briefly reference them, but Respectful Insolence seems to misrepresent those studies. In the actual studies the mice received 2 doses of 50mcg of aluminum adjuvant two weeks apart. That is much less than what infants receive in their vaccine schedule and the 2 weeks apart is valid because mice have higher metabolisms and develop faster. I think the only semi-valid argument Respectful Insolence makes is that the injections were subcutaneous rather than intramuscular. Yet, the method they used was standard accepted protocol and fully accepted by peer-reviewers. What is unique about this study, regardless of what you make of the results or think of the methods, is that they were the first saline controlled aluminum adjuvant studies done on animals. Animal studies showing that injected aluminum is safe at pediatric doses hasn’t been done. I’ve put in FOIA requests to CDC and they told me they don’t do these studies and to ask the FDA. When I put in a request to the FDA they told me they don’t do those studies either (though they do reference Mitkus 2011 for oral exposure and extrapolate that to injected alum) and that they accept what industry submits to them, which as far as I can tell from their response to FOIA haven’t been done either. They do often use aluminum adjuvant as “placebos,” though, in their pre-clinical safety trials, which would have the effect of masking any adverse (short or long-term) from aluminum adjuvant. If you kind any animal studies on the pharmacokinetics of injected aluminum adjuvant at pediatric schedule relevant doses, I would love to have a look at those.

  • Shoshana

    Also, thank you for talking to me like a human being. No one else here seems all that capable of doing that.

  • Acleron

    Strange, I wouldn’t have thought the early Egyptians were using DDT.

    It is also strange that the polio cases decreased in different years in different countries only after the introduction of the vaccine.

  • Mike Stevens

    It doesn’t matter what the differential proportions are in the groups, Iggy. What matters is that there are sufficient numbers for a valid statistical comparison to be made between them.
    Didn’t you do basic stats in high school?

  • The blog still makes a valid point about dosing mice.

    I don’t think anyone accepts “what industry submits to them.” Rather, aluminum adjuvants have been in use for decades.
    Have you read the reference section of the Mitkus paper? I would start by reading all of those.

  • Mike Stevens

    “I know a kid who was vaxxed who does [have autism]. That’s worthy of publishing, right?”

    …Only if you wish it to serve as an example of how events will inevitably occur by coincidence at predicted frequencies within large populations.

  • Mike Stevens

    I did say “up to” 50,000mcg. I think that applies to adults, so for infants it will be much less, sure. But it exists.

    “…we should be figuring out how to identify people who have adverse reactions to aluminum adjuvant (like MMF victims) before
    indiscriminately injecting everyone for the sake of the greater good.”

    That’s putting the cart before the horse. First, someone needs to establish whether MMF is a discrete, coherent medical ccondition (there is substantial controversy on this point, as well as bafflement as to why it doesn’t seem to occur in countries using aluminium adjuvant vaccines other than France), and someone needs to to demonstrate unequivocally and with robust and replicable research that aluminium adjuvant does the toxic damage that antivaxers allege it causes.

    Only when the science is clear on that can you look to tailor vaccines according to likelihood of reactions, or implement testing for susceptibility.

  • I feel like they are gloming onto a source without evidence of WHAT it does.

  • gimpi1

    Utter nonsense. Dr. Salk said no such thing. Polio is a contagious virus, and has plagued us for millennium. DDT has nothing to do with it. Go peddle your lies somewhere else.

  • Mike Stevens

    “the MMR produces seizures 5x more than the measles“

    Nope. That’s fiction, based upon mistaken interpretation by PIC.
    Febrile seizures are between 10 and 100 times more frequent following measles.
    PIC mistook or deliberately picked data for measles encephalitis convulsions, rather than febrile seizures data for measles.

    I think it was deliberate.
    The data is quite clear in the original papers.
    Do you plan to use these alternative facts in your antivaccine course, aangel?

  • Mike Stevens

    ”The measles vaccine did reduce *some* morbidity”

    I’d hesitate to call a 99.5% reduction “some”.

  • Mike Stevens

    Yeah. You did.
    By the same reasoning, some will get lower doses.

  • shay simmons

    Judith, what does the “N” in “NPAFP” stand for?

  • shay simmons

    Polio pre-dates DDT by thousands of years. From “From Emergence to Eradication: The Epidemiology of Poliomyelitis Deconstructed,” Neal Nathanson and Olen M. Kew.

    Although the historical record is very fragmentary and must be interpreted with caution, there is a general consensus that isolated cases of poliomyelitis have been occurring for many millennia (18). The most compelling ancient case is pictured on an Egyptian stele dating from the 18th dynasty (1580–1350 BCE) showing an adult with a withered, flaccid leg and crutch; the image is strikingly similar to a modern image of a young man with paralytic poliomyelitis (29). Another convincing example is the description by Walter Scott of his attack of acute “infantile paralysis” at age 18 months in 1773, which left him with a permanent limp (18). The disease’s striking presentation, in which previously healthy infants underwent an acute febrile illness followed by localized paralysis, would have made outbreaks conspicuous. However, few if any cases were reported until late in the 19th century.

    Beginning around 1880, a series of outbreaks of infantile paralysis were reported from several Scandinavian countries and the United States.

    PMID: 2991634 if yu wish to read more.

  • shay simmons

    “Autism is just one of many vaccine injuries not to mention DEATH!!!”

    All caps is no substitute for evidence.

  • shay simmons

    Are you familiar with the mortality and morbidity data from the 2004-2005 measles outbreak in the Netherlands (a country with one of the highest standards of living in the world and universal healthcare)?

    During a 2004/2005 measles outbreak with 3292 reported cases (94% of which were unvaccinated), 3 children died, 157 had to be hospitalized and 519 had complications (5 of which involved encephalitis). The study pointed out that “even in a wealthy country, measles is not just a mild childhood disease but can cause severe complications and even death.” The outbreak was unable to spread to areas with high vaccination coverage, indicating that these deaths and complications may have been avoided with sufficient vaccination coverage.

    Is that data relevant?

  • tomonthebay

    And you were incorrect.

  • tomonthebay

    Good luck with getting that from Iggy.

  • Shoshana

    What would be a more appropriate dosing for mice? They received 50mcg/kg twice. (Sorry, I said 50mcg the first time. Forgot to include the /kg.) The infant schedule per kg is higher than what the mice received, not lower. I’ve read the Mitkus paper and they reference ATSDR for their MRL, which references a single study on mouse ingestion of dietary aluminum (Golub 2001), a different form of aluminum than what is injected. I don’t think ingested aluminum is a valid study for the safety of aluminum adjuvant. The only way to test the safety of aluminum adjuvant is to test the safety of aluminum adjuvant against a valid placebo. Even if Mitkus’ method of determining safety was valid, animal studies on ingested aluminum have found evidence of neurotoxicity at even lower levels than the single study that ATSDR cites, so their citation does not fit what the rest of the scientific literature says by a factor of at least 7. They do reference Flarend, which actually shows high absorption but Mitkus only considered the dissolved aluminum ions for body burden consideration, not the nanoparticles that persist while they gradually dissolve. Mitkus does reference one study of injected (intravenously) aluminum citrate into an adult volunteer and then extrapolates that to children. Again, that is not a safety test of aluminum phosphate or aluminum hydroxide, just more mathematical abstraction and guesswork. Aluminum adjuvant has been used for decades, and yet it took 50+ years to discover MMF as an acknowledged and documented adverse reaction. Part of the difficultly was that the reaction took so long to manifest (months, sometimes years) that it was never linked back to vaccines until they had the idea to biopsy muscle tissue. What else might we have missed in those 50+ years based on the assumption of safety rather than the science of safety? The FDA does not cite any animal dose escalation studies of injected aluminum adjuvants and has not turned anything over despite FOIA requests.

  • The article doesn’t say it causes autism. You made that conclusion.

  • Mike Stevens said, “…as well as bafflement as to why it doesn’t seem to occur in countries using aluminium adjuvant vaccines other than France…”
    Oh, I don’t know… Maybe because there’s only one Gherardi (Mr. MMF who’s upset his research is so unproductive that he’s not going to get any more funding) and he’s based in France?
    It seems to be a will-o’-the-wisp syndrome just like Shoenfeld’s ASIA.
    Could that be it?

  • The mice in the 2007 Shaw study got “The mice
    in this experiment would, therefore, have received
    100 µg/kg against a probable 68 µg/kg in humans.” which is clearly MORE than human babies get.

  • Shoshana deceptively said, “I’m not anti-vaxx.”
    Sure your not, Suzy. (/sarc)
    You do realize that people can easily determine you RL identity and G–gle your name to see you are most definitely anti-vaccine and quite fond of Janet Kern’s anti-vaccine Thimerosal list.
    You know and promote Janet Kern… She works for/with the notorious Geiers in their anti-vaccine work and is a principle in one of their anti-vaccine front organizations.
    BTW – Here’s a sampling of her anti-vaccine work:
    RETRACTED ARTICLE: Systematic Assessment of Research on Autism Spectrum Disorder and Mercury Reveals Conflicts of Interest and the Need for Transparency in Autism Research
    Janet K. Kern, David A. Geier, Richard C. Deth, Lisa K. Sykes, Brian S. Hooker, James M. Love, Geir Bjørklund, Carmen G. Chaigneau, Boyd E. Haley, Mark R. Geier”

    Now there’s a rogue’s gallery of anti-vaccine scammers and cultists if ever there was one.
    You do know about the Geiers, don’t you? They figure prominently in your favorite anti-vaccine Thimerosal ‘research list’.
    They developed and promoted the dangerous and abusive “Lupron Protocol” which chemically castrates poor autistic boys which is then followed by Hg chelation. Dr. Frankenstein Mark Geier used this lunatic experimental “protocol” on children and only charged the parents ~$6000.00 per month for the privilege of letting this ghoul experiment on their autistic boys.
    Dr. Mark “Frankenstein” Geier lost his medical license in all 12 states where he held one because of this “Lupron” abuse of autistic kids.
    These are some your “experts”, Suzy.
    Once again we may ask:
    Why do anti-vaccine death cultists constantly lie?

  • Shoshana

    “Against a probable 68mcg/kg in humans” must be in reference to adults. The numbers are much different for infants, let alone preemies. Human babies weigh about 3.4kg at birth. The pediatric dose of Hep B can contain as low as 225 or as high as 500 mcg of alum. That comes out to a range of 74-147 mcg/kg for a one day old baby. At two months when a baby weighs 5kg, they receive 295-1225mcg, or a range of 245-295mcg/kg. The total amount of alum received by an infant by 6 months of age ranges from 3675-4222mcg, which comes out to 459-527mcg/kg. My numbers are from CHOP ingredients page and CDC pediatric schedule, and a google search of children’s weights at various months of age.

  • Mike Stevens

    Got it in one!
    Also, France was the only country where people supposedly got Ms following vaccines.
    They can be a bit odd in their views on vaccines there…

  • sabelmouse

    the article says that ”anti” vaxxers believe that.

  • sabelmouse

    not on tis page alone, on all the pages. shills i’ve blocked over a period of time. they do pop up on this kind of page and not seeing their comments makes it restful.

  • sabelmouse

    not really adressing my point that they slightly disabled don’t give a crap about the severely disabled. that’s my experience with the neuro diverse regarding vaccination.

  • sabelmouse

    for what exactly? bruno vs galileo?

  • Shoshana

    Mitkus 2011 estimates the body burden of aluminum in a newborn to be 384mcg. The Hep B shot all by itself nearly doubles that (250-500mcg). MMF is recognized by WHO. Diagnosis requires a biopsy of the muscle tissue to identify the persistent aluminum adjuvant. The symptoms of MMF are experienced the world over- myalgia, chronic fatigue, cognitive impairments, etc. I suspect it has primarily been identified in France because that is where it was first discovered/identified and well known enough by medical practitioners to even do the proper testing and consider the diagnosis.

  • the shedding is regarding getting sick – not autism

  • Mike Stevens

    ”MMF is recognized by WHO.”

    Really? …they dismiss it as having any clinical consequences, merely noting that histological examination of muscle shows residual aluminium and some inflammation. This is entirely expected and quite predictable. That doesn’t turn it into a disease or syndrome.

    ”GACVS reviewed the data of the case-control study performed in France and concluded, in accordance with previous statements,5 that the persistence of aluminium-containing macrophages at the site of a previous vaccination is not associated with specific clinical symptoms or disease.”

    There is no evidence to suggest that MMF is a specific illness. MMF is a lesion containing aluminium salts, identified by histopathological examination, found at the site of previous vaccination with an aluminium-containing vaccine (like a residual “tattoo” left behind). The World Health Organization (WHO)’s Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety (GACVS) has been reviewing evidence since the findings emerged and has concluded that there is no evidence to suggest a resulting clinical illness or disease.“

  • sabelmouse

    yes, it is but look what it says in article, unless it was changed.

  • I wrote the article. Anything you see you are misconstruing. There is NO implication by me that shedding causes autism. The first point is about autism the rest are UNRELATED to autism.

  • Verna Lang

    No, it’s called hyponatremia. Excessive water drinking causes it in 13% to 15% of endurance athletes. It can be fatal.

  • You can also die from eating too much salt or potassium. Anything can be lethal in high doses

  • Mike Stevens

    ”Mitkus 2011 estimates the body burden of aluminum in a newborn to be 384mcg. The Hep B shot all by itself nearly doubles that (250-500mcg).”

    Don’t confuse body burden (residual steady state levels) with exposure. Virtually all the vaccine aluminium will be excreted, only a small fraction will add to the “body burden”.

  • sabelmouse

    must have misread then.

  • Shoshana

    Okay, I guess WHO has not officially acknowledged MMF. They say so many conflicting things in their revew, though. On the one hand they say there is no evidence and on the other they acknowledge evidence that demonstrates it is a condition: “The study confirmed that patients with MMF are more likely to have received vaccines containing aluminium hydroxide adjuvants. Fatigue and related functional limitations were more prevalent in patients with MMF compared with the control group, and fatigue was more prevalent at the beginning of the illness that led to the muscle biopsy.” Their review is from 2008, nearly a decade old and doesn’t reflect the dozens of studies conducted in France adding to the growing body of evidence that it is a valid condition.

  • Verna Lang

    Or things like polonium that are lethal in tiny doses are also detectable in our bodies because our planet has naturally occurring radioactive elements that are naturally incorporated into our bodies. It’s almost like the dose makes something poisonous or not.

  • Shoshana

    If there’s one thing WHO agrees on with MMF, it’s that the alum can and does biopersist long term in susceptible individuals. Preemies with poor kidney functioning would also be an example, and yet dosing for them does not take this,nor their weight into account. The only evidence we have for the kinetics of injected alum from animal models that I know of is Flarend, which only lasted 28 days and found high retention, and very gradual elimination. If you have a study that shows otherwise, please share.

  • You do realize many Preemies are not vaccinated until they are the right weight for them? My son was in the NICU and received NO vaccines until after he was big enough.

  • Yep.
    “…like a residual “tattoo” left behind…” — The WHO
    Gherardi’s MMF is just “like a residual tattoo”!!!!!!!11!!!1
    We all know tattoos have minerals (Aluminum hydroxide Al(OH)3 is a mineral = hydrous aluminum oxide) and organic dyes in them for their colours and the WHO is saying what Gherardi is babbling about is essentially the same thing as the tints in a tattoo.
    That must mean tattoos cause MMF and all sorts of illnesses and diseases!!!!!!
    The anti-vax loons never stop drooling on themselves… and Gherardi is a quack. I expect him to mostly give up on MMF now that his state funding is gone and convert to an “aluminum in vaccines causes everything” anti-vaxxer to dip into the Dwoskin Foundation anti-vax funding pool like his “research” buddies.

  • tomonthebay

    Just another anti-vax crank that hides their posting history. Too embarassing I am sure to leave it out there.

  • shay simmons

    Interesting how better nutrition and hygiene started to wipe out polio in the 1950s but waited almost another decade to take down the measles.

  • shay simmons

    You’re confusing evidence with belief.

  • shay simmons

    Ah yes. Here comes Ron the Archie Kalokerinos fanboi.

  • shay simmons

    Such as the New England cemetery, the records for which you tried to cite as an example on an earlier forum? The one with ten children’s graves….four from the same family…on the very first page?

  • Yep, but joe is also correct in that H2O kills by depriving lung breathing animals the oxygen needed for life… also called “drowning”.
    That H2O is insidious stuff.
    Maybe you can “detox” from H2O exposure by drinking lots of clean, fresh water…
    Have fun.

  • Shoshana

    Hospital policy for the NICU my preemies were in was same schedule as full term infants. They only weighed 2kg. Except for extremely low birth weight preemies, that’s generally the standard accepted recommendation despite the lack of safety data for this age group. Preemies are excluded from preclinical trials and all of the post-marketing studies I’ve read over only last 1-2 days, 3 days tops, no placebo group for comparison for safety outcomes. That’s not nearly enough time for a proper safety study. I think we absolutely need more safety data in this area.

  • Ronnie drooled, “Gee if all these diseases were so deadly why are we still here?”
    – Uhhh… because diseases are not 100% fatal? I thought this fact was apparent to everyone, including 5 year olds.
    Ronnie just proved me wrong.
    Scare tactics Blithering idiocy brought to you by the Medical Mafia Antivaccine Death Cult”

  • shay simmons

    The pro-disease crowd considers a 12% infant mortality rate (New England, 17th-18th century) acceptable.

    I mean, it left plenty of kids for the witch-burners.

  • FallsAngel

    And until 1991 for Hib, 2006 for rotavirus.

  • APRIL drooled, “Some incoherent nonsense about polio and DDT and vaccines”
    – Gee, they must have been spraying a lot of DDT around the whole USA back in 1916:
    “Event Date
    Health officials announced a polio epidemic centered in Brooklyn, New York. As was typical with polio outbreaks, infections surfaced in the summer months.

    More than 2000 people would die in New York City alone. Across the United States in 1916, polio took the lives of about 6,000 people, leaving thousands more paralyzed.”
    “Five years before 39-year-old Franklin Delano Roosevelt was diagnosed with polio, the paralyzing disease struck thousands in the U.S., killing some 6,000. During the 1916 epidemic, 9,000 cases occurred in New York City, which called for quarantines. Polio would haunt the country for decades, afflicting thousands each year…”
    Suzy Humphries & Co. don’t tell you about the large polio outbreaks that occurred more than a century ago, do they? Not very honest of them, is it?
    Once again we must ask:
    Why do the anti-vaccine death cultists constantly lie?

  • shay simmons

    Actually, you can get water poisoning but it tends to appear only among high performance endurance athletes (and other people who overestimate how much they’ve been sweating).

  • FallsAngel

    Polio in the US had declined sharply before the vaccine was introduced

    Why do you continue lying about polio like this? The biggest epidemic in the US was in 1952, 58,000 reported cases as the vaccine was under development. Development of the vaccine started in 1948 and by 1950 a prototype of the vaccine had been developed.
    Source: History dot com

    Please post a source showing that NONpolio Acute Flaccid Paralysis is caused by polio vaccine.

  • shay simmons

    FA, you were an immunization RN. How common is it for expectant mothers and/or small children to be given the multi-dose flu vaccine? I seem to remember from my PH days – at last here in IL – that didn’t happen. They got the single dose or (until 2 years ago) the nasal spray.

  • shay simmons

    Herzlich wilkommen zurueck.

  • Yeah, and the Black Plague only killed 1/3 to 1/2 of Europe… totally OK and no big deal… and definitely nothing that in the modern world would induce us to try to produce medicines or an evil vaccine to combat… gnatural immunity is soooo much better.
    Back To The Dark Ages! — The Antivaccine Death Cult

  • FallsAngel

    “the disease was declining before the vaccine was given..”

    It freaking was not! Polio ran in cycles. The two biggest epidemics ever in the US were in 1949 (42,000 cases, one of which was my husband’s cousin who died from it in Omaha, Nebraska, not known as a “sh*t-hole” and 1952 (58,000 cases). In 1950 there were 33,000 cases; 1951 28,000; then the big epidemic of 1952. 1953, 35,000 cass; 1954, 38,000. The vaccine was introduced in April 1955 (29,000). By 1956 cases were down to 15,000 and as vaccine uptake increased, by 1957 there were ~5500. By 1960 there were ~3000, and by 1965 there were 72. The last wild (“natural” if you wish) polio cases in the US were in 1979.

    Source: Post polio dot org.

  • shay simmons

    Yes. I posted that meme here once, so I don’t want to trespass on WACB’s patience!

  • FallsAngel

    Our office carried only single dose the last few years I worked there, 4 flu seasons ago now. We didn’t do many parents, though we did offer it a few years.

  • Bravissimo!
    Anchor-a! Anchor-a!

  • FallsAngel

    Also the drug “Ecstacy” can cause you to drink too much water. A student at my DD’s high school died that way. The deal went down in DD’s math class.

  • One wonder how many of these anti-vax “Warrior Mommies” have tattoos?
    How many are “Lydia, the Tattooed Lady”?
    Apparently in modern society getting thousands of “ink vaccinations” to draw one skin picture is acceptable but one needle prick to prevent disease is horrible and socially unacceptable…
    I remember a time when the reverse was true…

  • Not where we are. Preemies do not get vacs at the same time – not even close

  • I was just thinking with all the time I’ve spent mod’ing this over the past week – you all would at least donate by buying me a cup of coffee

  • shay simmons

    For some of what you’ve had to read this week, you should ask for beer.

  • shay simmons

    Dreadful. I did not know that.

  • With the amount of time you guys have been on my board – you could at least buy me a cup of coffee for moderating this mess.


  • LOL! seriously! I do have a donation button above where the article is listed – you can donate a cup of coffee 🙂 But yes, Angel was probably worth a keg

  • So true. Tattoos can actually put lead and other toxins into your body

  • shay simmons

    For coping with sabelmouse, I suggest you ask for absinthe.

  • First, let’s establish there is an epidemic. Using a consistent definition, can you show me that the rate of ASD is significantly higher in children than in adults?

    Second, this is not strictly accurate. The average age of mothers going up would lead to an overall decline in the quality of eggs being fertilised which would lead to things like more kids with Down’s Syndrome – a chromosomal condition.

  • Where is your evidence that autism is a vacccine injury? Be specific.

  • First off, read the Cedillo case. Second, where is the CAUSATIVE link?

  • You have to show that a given condition is a vaccine injury before it matters how vaccines cause it.

  • We can talk about later.

    Were there unvaxxed kids in KIGGS?

  • Ummm….pharmacokinetics aren’t really relevant to vaccines. The whole point of pharmacokinetics is that it’s how a drug acts upon your body By contrast, vaccines are designed to be acted upon by your body.

    I’m simplifying this, of course, but this is a bit like asking why scientists haven’t studied the mating habits of tennis shoes.

    And can you explain what you think the purpose of a placebo is?

  • Thank goodness for the rest of the world, hey, Dan?

  • tomonthebay

    Don’t forget hyponatremia from excess water consumption ( a cause of the condition that not-a-doctor Jack denied existed).

  • tomonthebay

    Ron trots that one out regularly in spite of being shown the data proving him wrong. Life must be very hard for Ron considering his intellectual deficits.

  • tomonthebay

    Not according to not-a-doctor Jack.

  • tomonthebay

    Unless children are getting flu vaccine from the multi-dose vial, they ARE NOT exposed to thimerosal. The vast majority of flu shots given in the U.S. are the single dose syringes. NO THIMEROSAL IN THOSE.

  • Verna Lang

    Then there are the steam and scalding burns. Dangerous stuff.

  • Yep.
    It’s the old “I’m not anti-vaccine.” followed by a litany of anti-vaccine tropes and talking points.
    It’s like they think we haven’t encountered a stealth anti-vaxxer before and we’re so childishly naive and gullible we’d fall for their guff. In their arrogant ignorance they don’t realize they aren’t clever enough nor intelligent enough to pull it off.
    The dishonesty and lies from the anti-vaxxers makes them so very easy to predict.

  • Mike Stevens

    Well we have toxicity studies in premmies, which is even better, seeing as how they were infused directly into the circulation via TPN, and this was in premmies with renal failure who were unable to eliminate aluminium…
    You need more than 4-5mcg/kg/day to cause toxicity.

    That’s around 3 times more than an infant with normal renal function would get over the first 6 months via vaccinations.

  • roscoe

    April you don’t know what you are talking about.

  • roscoe

    Crap in Australia as soon as the vaccine was given figures went down by thousands in the first year. Polio cases pre vaccination were increasing world wide.

  • Yesiree!
    I’d like to see the MSDS on this stuff and if the government is doing anything to protect us.

  • Rotgut.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Just because your friends from the bar don’t believe there is a link doesn’t make it true.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    LOL, I love when the trolls try to drive the conversation.

  • shpadoinkle

    such flippancy regarding dead aboriginal children!

  • shpadoinkle

    no vaccine for plague.

  • shpadoinkle

    depending on era, virus, medical practices, nutrition, sanitation. the latter greatly improved matters.

  • shpadoinkle

    if they were as deadly as pro vaxxers claim.

  • You realise it doesn’t really matter whether you answer it or not because you’ve already objected to the size of the unvaccinated group?

    Also, troll where? Note troll means something different to ‘someone who disagrees with me’.

  • Scroll up, Ron.

  • Anti-vaccine death cultist reading comprehension failure #1.
    Reading is Fundamental; brand spanking new, 2 hour old, 7 total posts, shpadoinkle.
    One wonders what your Disqus ID was 3 hours ago…

  • shpadoinkle

    death cultists, funny!

  • ?????
    Anti-vaccine death cultist reading comprehension failure #2.
    Reading is Fundamental; brand spanking new, 2 hour old, 7 total posts, shpadoinkle.
    Pro-science, pro-vaccine advocates state the true mortality rates of
    vaccine preventable diseases. It is the lying anti-vaccine death
    cultists who dishonestly say the diseases do not cause deaths and are a minor inconvenience. Yeah, right. Just look at the measles outbreak in 1st world Europe this last year… Tens of thousands ill, dozens of fatalities, who knows how many hospitalizations…
    But the lunatic anti-vaccine death cultists will tell you measles is a mere bagatelle…
    Since the beginning of 2016, 49 deaths due to measles have been reported in the EU.
    New data published today by ECDC in the Communicable Disease Threat Report (CDTR) show that the highest number of measles cases since 1 January 2017 were reported in Romania (8 274), Italy (4 885) and Germany (919). Greece is currently experiencing a measles outbreaks with 968 cases including two deaths reported since May 2017 and significant emerging outbreaks have been reported in France (77 cases), Sweden (26 cases) and the UK (62 cases). Most cases were unvaccinated or incompletely vaccinated.

    One wonders what your Disqus ID was 3 hours ago…

  • If the shoe fits… , Ms. Functionally Illiterate Death Cutltist.

  • shpadoinkle

    thank you. your insults shall make me get all the vaccines first thing tomorrow.

  • What is your lying point, Ronnie?
    Did Mark Geier get his medical license back? – No.
    Was this case about the evidence that led to him losing his medical licenses? – No.
    No matter how you try to spin it, Mark Geier lost his medical license in all the states he had one (to start autism Lupron clinics) due to his “dangerous” activity of treating autistic children with the chemical castration drug Lupron and then chelating them, telling the parents this lunatic idea would cure their child’s autism… and all for only $6000.00 a month.
    Follow the money.
    Twelve states = at least 12 Lupron clinics treating who know how many hundreds of victims. Mark “Frankenstein” Geier had himself a million $$ scam going until the authorities shut him down.

  • Who knows what is in tattoo dyes?
    Surely not the tattoo guy covered in tattoos with the snake on his face** and the braided beard and wife-beater t-shirt.
    ** Reference to John Candy character on SCTV. G–gle it for great laughs.

  • More lies, Ronnie?
    Colour me surprised.(/sarc)

  • So far, the lying liar, shpadoinkle, has provided no evidence for her statements. She seems to be here only to gainsay pro-science, pro-vaccine posts and then complain when she is ridiculed.
    Another anti-vaccine death cult Tone Troll.

  • Jim Jones

    Yes. I became immeasurably smarter.

    It had the reverse effect on you?

  • Raging Bee

    Your continued visibility here refutes your own allegation. If all you have to offer is pre-emptive whinery and fake victimhood, than you have nothing. Go back to bed.

  • shpadoinkle

    wow, and i’ve barely started. do you say that to all the girls? what a charmer.

  • sabelmouse

    disqus seems glitchy. i keep not getting things on my dash.

  • sabelmouse

    i had most childhood illnesses no problem. nobody panicked either. the spanish flu was man made.
    never has there been a flu like this and not because of vaccines.

  • tomonthebay

    If you don’t want to be called out on false information then don’t post it.

  • shay simmons

    It would certainly be nice if you had sound scientific evidence to support that, wouldn’t it?

  • shay simmons

    Sanitation plays an important role in public health, but epidemiological timelines point to other factors.

  • shay simmons

    Such flippancy regarding a PRATT, rather.

  • shay simmons

    You are wrong by an entire decimal point, Ron.

  • shay simmons

    Perhaps the medical establishment has no use for infanticide supporters.

  • shay simmons

    A fire that claimed its victims over a several year period?

  • shay simmons

    Short-term memory loss, Ron?

  • shay simmons

    Threatening the moderator is rarely a good idea, Ron.

  • shay simmons

    Strictly speaking, polio does not cause paralyses? That’s going to be news to three generations of medical historians.

  • shay simmons

    Flagged/downvoted for shill accusation.

  • FallsAngel

    No, jagoff (not a profanity according to Carnegie-Mellon University I’ll remind you) POST polio dot org is not a FDA, CDC, NIH or pharma organization. It’s an advocacy group. They happen to have a good chart of numbers of the incidence of polio.

  • Mike Stevens

    “My babies were preemies, already had exposure to aluminum from multiples/cumulative/additives exposures in the NICU”

    …What, exactly?

    These “genetically susceptible” MMF people… can you tell us the specific genetic anomaly, or are you just flying a kite?

    Crepeaux? Seriously? The dude who gave excessively higher than usual doses of adjuvant to mice, then claimed the lower doses were toxic but the higher ones weren’t, and had to invent a rectally-sourced explanation about nanobots/quantum unicorn farts to explain it away?
    That Crepeaux…?

    PS: I think you’ll find most of these studies made it into predatory pay-to-publish open access pseudojournals with minimal peer review other than by someone else who was an antivax pseudoscientist, with the necessary $1000 backhander fee to the journal of course.
    Serious scientists are horrified at this burgeoning practice, while antivax pseudoscientists are rubbing their hands in glee.

  • White_and_Nerdy

    A strategic retreat….do you really not care that the anti-vaccs have systematically lied to you?


  • White_and_Nerdy

    Good news!

    Bar is set at a ~3rd grade education.

    That is all it takes to read the words and see how the anti-vaccs try and deceive people about NPAFP.

    And that is all it takes to do the math to and see how the anti-vaccs try and deceive people about polio.

    Given how many times you have been provided the facts it is 100% clear that you simply don’t care at all about our children or the fact that the anti-vaccs are a fraud…


  • tatortotcassie

    ALL THE LIKES for this article!

  • White_and_Nerdy

    No Roy….the “N” stands for “nonpolio”….as usual you just can’t read the words correctly!

    Bonus: after decades of testing we know that the vaccine isn’t responsible.

    How sad that you just don’t care about the facts…..


  • persephone

    Anecdata is not scientific.

  • Mike Stevens

    ”None polio”

  • Mike Stevens

    ”the tragedy that occurred when 200,000 people were inadvertently injected with live virulent polio virus: 70,000 became ill, 200 were permanently paralyzed, and 10 died”

    Yes, the Cutter incident was a terrible tragedy, it’s great we have a very safe vaccine now.

    But it illustrates what happens with natural, “wild” polio.
    And remember, every year in the US, there were tens of thousands suffering permanent paralysis, and over 3000 died.

    Thank god for Polio vaccine!

  • Raging Bee

    …where “everyone” means…who and how many again?

  • se habla espol

    Have you followed up on all the infectees for the two years it takes for the immune system to recover from a measles infection? Does your “no one died” include secondary infections caused by the immune system damage? How have you followed up on your claim that infectees have developed “permanent real immunity”, since permanent immunity is immunity that lasts for seventy or so years?

    Or are you just echoing the lies of the anti-vax industry?

  • se habla espol

    No, the anti-vax industry is not funny at all, from the lies they peddle to the illness and deaths they encourage. Not funny at all.

  • se habla espol

    Since epidemiolotgists haven’t found enough to populate a study, it’s no surprise you would call them clueless.

  • se habla espol

    People didn’t panic over childhood diseases, since there was nothing to do except hope and symptomatic care. At least, my parents didn’t show any panic with my mumps, chicken pox, measles, and rubella. The local health district didn’t panic during the polio epidemic: they just took care of whatever they could take care of. They also provided Gamma Globulin injections for all of us, since that seemed to help prevent the worst symptoms, they provided sugar-cube immunizations as soon as they were available, and injected immunizations as soon as availble. Being adults, they didn’t panic, they just did what they could o to alleviate the (major) problems.

    Of course, “Spanish flu” is still around: it kills very few any more because of vaccines.

  • Being MEAN To the moderator isn’t gonna get you far

  • Jim X

    “A child that is breastfed will ingest around 7 milligrams of aluminum through their diet by six months old.” In addition to correcting your grammar (it’s his or her, not their), please provide the citation for this estimate. A fundamental toxicological facet of aluminum: it’s poorly absorbed by ingestion. The route of exposure is very significant: vaccines with aluminum are administered parenterally (i.e., by injection), bypassing the liver and any other detoxification. The injected aluminum goes to the heart and then straight to the brain. There are many viable alternatives to aluminum, but the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t want to change. Many ‘anti-vaxxers’ include highly educated, scientific people who are not against vaccines per se, but rather are against the composition and methods of administration. FYI.

  • Jim X

    And now you don’t have polio. Voila! (Republican logic at work)

  • Meanwhile in Minnesota – the Andrew Wakefield epidemic continues. He convinced our Somolian population not to vaccinate. Guess what?! they travel to Africa a lot and bring it back. And guess what. More measles after just having an outbreak last year.

  • se habla espol

    I complain to my annual flu vaccinator about the inability to get my autism booster: they only carry the single-dose vaccines that don’t have or need the antibiotic protection that thimerosal provides.

  • Mike Stevens

    Enjoy your little echo chamber, moosey.
    You wouldn’t want to read anything factual that could burst your bubble of ignorance now, would you?

  • The citations are all there. Click any of the hyperlinks. A really easy way to get banned is being rude to me. You have been warned

  • se habla espol

    How do the levels of Al in autistic brains compare to those in neurotypical brains? What does Alzheimer’s have to do with vaccinations which may have been taken fifty years earlier? What do autoimmune diseases have to do with anything? How robust and reliable are the studies you’re going to present to support your claims?

    Why do you consider my autism to be a malady?

  • se habla espol

    How come autism has never, ever been observed as a “vaccine injury” by other than an unqualified observer, one who wouldn’t know early autism from a hole in the ground until it become overt? How come the only people who claim to see autism as a vaccine injury are those who want to get paid off by the legal system?

  • se habla espol

    You mean the parents who didn’t notice their kid’s autism until after vaccination?

  • se habla espol

    Where is the research that shows anything close to correlation, not to mention causation, between vaccination and autism?

  • Jazz Let

    It would have been a surprise to my mother, who had to learn to walk again after her balance muscles were paralysed by polio.

  • Bored Now

    How many time do you have to be told: Just because the N stands for None as in None Polio doesn’t mean the vaccine wasn’t responsible for the NPAFP/ It simply means the vaccine’s virus had mutated

    Apparently almost as many times as you need to be told that your hypothesis is not supported by the evidence. A block of wood would literally have better ideas.

    See Ron we know the mutation rate of vaccine virus and we know the genetic distance between all the viruses we understand to be responsible for NPAFP. Furthermore it’s considerably less than VDPV which we also know the frequency for.

    Try to follow along Ron. I know it’s hard because it involves thinking and reasoning and science. Thee things that really hurt your brain.

    See the polio vaccine occasionally mutates into a virus which can cause polio. This is called Vaccine Derived Polio Virus (VDPV). If NPAFP is not recognizable as polio virus. It has to be more genetically distant than VDPV. Which means the likelihood of an NPAFP case forming from a vaccine strain has to be less likely than the formation of a VDPV strain.

    Are you with me so far? Do you need me to draw you a picture?

    Now considering that in eleven years, and 10 billion doses of OPV we have seen exactly 20 VDPV outbreaks. The likelihood that ANY NPAFP case, let alone what you assert is that MOST OR ALL CASES. Is simple the silliest thing you could possibly say. It betrays the deepest kind of ignorance on the subject.

    Now to tell this to my wife so she can get a good laugh.

  • se habla espol

    For people who live in the modern world rather than a worn-out, bigoted, often ani-vax one, ‘their’ is quite correct in the quoted usage.

  • Please watch your tone. Thanks! This is your first post, and I don’t tolerate ad hominem attacks. Don’t assume he’s “stupid” just because he doesn’t agree with you

  • White_and_Nerdy

    There are these people called toxicologists that can explain your errors…if you care…


  • keep the conversation on the topic. No personal attacks

  • Bored Now

    Fair enough. I assume by “ad hominem” you just mean using critical or insulting speech then? I’m more used to the term referring to an attack on an argument by virtue of some attribute of the person.

    Don’t assume he’s “stupid” just because he doesn’t agree with you

    I definitely do not.

  • Yes, attack the argument – don’t imply he doesn’t apply logic, think or have reasoning

  • FWIW I have been moderating this conversation for nearly a week. I’m beat.

  • Bored Now

    Actually I implied it is hard for him. Which isn’t a terrible inference given how often wrong he is. As far as I’m concerned everyone applies logic, thinks and reasons — just not equally well. It’s also not an ad hominem attack since the statement isn’t refuting an argument.

    That said, I’ll certainly use gentler terms in the future.

  • Bored Now

    Well I’ll do my best not to put any extra load on you. Modding is a thankless but necessary job.

  • thank you!

  • shay simmons

    “the spanish flu was man made.”

    You’ve made this statement before, sabel, and you’ve been asked for the source before. What is your evidence that the Spanish Flu originated in a lab?

  • FallsAngel

    Many ‘anti-vaxxers’ include highly educated, scientific people who are
    not against vaccines per se, but rather are against the composition and
    methods of administration.

    Like who?

  • shay simmons

    Sorry, FA – but anyone who disagrees with an anti-vaxxer was obviously paid to do so.

  • FallsAngel

    Yeah, I forgot!

  • I would also like to see proof that many antivaxers are scientific persons. Studies show unvaccinated children are likely to have a white, college-educated mother who is concerned about vaccine safety. That does not mean she understands the science.

  • joe

    And what caused Polio before we had the vaccine or are you saying that Polio was CAUSED by vaccination. Thing is, in 1954 in my school there was a lot of kids walking around with a brace on their leg due to Polio, some even died, yet today when I pick up my grandchildren from school, I don’t see this any more, I wonder why?

  • sabelmouse

    sure! and lol! omg! lol!

  • shpadoinkle

    there is no industry. that’s the other side. ditto everything that you say.

  • shpadoinkle

    yes, nutrition. better living and working conditions. medical care for the poor.

  • shay simmons

    Interesting theory but again, the epidemiological timeline does not support it.

  • shpadoinkle

    yes it does.

  • FallsAngel

    Show, don’t tell!

  • shay simmons

    Why did sanitation, nutrition, etc start to reduce polio incidence drastically in the mid-1950s but wait almost a decade to have the same effect on measles?

  • shpadoinkle

    i am NOT talking about number of cases.

  • shay simmons

    Why not?

  • shpadoinkle

    because it’s not important. at least not as a negative.

  • transportjohnny

    Maybe we should ask some basic questions:
    1) Are vaccines 100% safe for 100% of the people…100% of the time?
    2) Are all diseases dangerous to 100% of the people?
    3) What effects has modern sanitation had on the spread of disease?

    4) What effects has vitamin fortification or supplementation had on disease severity?
    5) Why to the elderly not get a live virus vaccine for the flu?
    6) As for autism….the medical community says with 100% certainty that vaccines do not cause ASD….but cannot prove what does….that is quite odd..No?

    Could it be neither side is lying and the truth is somewhere in the middle? Thus why most states have religious and personal belief exemptions?
    Anyone with an ounce of knowledge does not say with 100% certainty that vaccines cause ASD. Thus this article is a Lie!

  • shay simmons

    Why is disease incidence not important? Isn’t one goal of public health initiatives the reduction of disease?

    EDITED TO ADD: AHA! Scrolling back up to your initial post in this thread, I see that you are discussing specifically childhood mortality from infectious disease.

    Correct me if I am wrong.

  • Ah, Shay, do you happen to have the thing that the Guardian did a while back on ‘If so many kids got measles versus so many kids got MMR’ ?

  • transportjohnny

    So they (49 people) all died from measles?? This leads to further questions:
    1) What was the status of their health prior to contracting the measles?
    2) What medical intervention was done or NOT done during the initial illness to prevent death?
    3) What genetic predispositions did they have?
    4) What if any illnesses were they diagnosed with the weeks and months before contracting the measles?

    Hmmm… many questions so few answers!!!!!! YET, All important things to know. Like all data….data can say anything you want to need!!!!!

  • shpadoinkle

    i always discus mortality/other negative outcomes.

  • shay simmons

    Yes. If WACB does not object, here it is.


    If one million kids are given vaccine (MMR):
    1000 will have a febrile convulsion.
    30 will get thrombocytopenia.
    10 will get a severe allergic reaction.
    1 will get encephalitis (ADEM).

    If one million kids get measles (in Europe, in the 21st century):
    200 will die.
    100,000 will be ill enough to need hospitalisation.
    90,000 will get otitis media.
    80,000 will get gastroenteritis.
    50,000 will get primary viral or secondary bacterial pneumonia.
    5000 will have a febrile convulsion.
    1000 will get encephalitis (ADEM or SSPE), 100 of whom will die and 2-300 will have residual brain damage.
    1000 will get various other problems such as hepatitis, myocarditis, thrombocytopenia or miscarriage if caught in pregnancy.

    The Guardian (UK)

  • Mike Stevens


  • shay simmons

    Death is not the only negative outcome from VPDs, though. Scroll up to read the comments by Jazz Let and gimpi1.

  • shay simmons
  • Transportjohnny ignorantly babbled, “A number of dumb and irrelevant questions.”
    Yes, johnny, “they (49 people) all died from the measles”, and more. That doesn’t include those who will die of SSPE a number of years from now.
    1) What does it matter? Their pre-existing condition does not change the fact that they died because they caught measles.
    2) What does it matter? Their medical treatment would not be necessary if they hadn’t caught the measles which killed them.
    3) What does it matter? Their genetic makeup would not be a factor in measles killing them if they hadn’t caught the measles in the first place.
    4) What does it matter? As in #1, their pre-existing condition is irrelevant to the fact that measles killed them.
    All the above are merely dishonest and dumb anti-vaccine “questions” attempting to blur the fact that, no matter what their previous situation was, measles killed them.
    You may as well ask the same questions about a serial killer’s victims.
    – Rational person: “Dear me. Those poor souls were viciously murdered.”
    – Pro-murder maniac (anti-vaxxer equiv.):
    “Were they actually murdered?”
    “1) Were they absolutely healthy before they were murdered?
    2) Did they get prompt and proper medical attention after the serial killer had slit their throats?
    3) Did the have a genetic condition that caused the murderer to select them to kill?
    4) What illnesses did they have right before the killer cut their throats?”
    That defense of the murderer (measles) is insane, isn’t it?
    And yet the insane anti-vaccine death cultists employ it constantly.
    They are horrible people.

  • shay simmons

    “no vaccine for plague” – that’s going to be news to the CDC.


    Plague vaccines ** have been used since the late 19th century, but their effectiveness has never been measured precisely. Field experience indicates that vaccination with plague vaccine reduces the incidence and severity of disease resulting from the bite of infected fleas. The degree of protection afforded against primary pneumonic infection is not known. Persons exposed to plague patients who have pneumonia or to Yersinia pestis *** aerosols in the laboratory should be given a 7- to 10-day course of antimicrobic therapy regardless of vaccination history. Recommended antimicrobials include tetracyclines, chloramphenicol, or streptomycin.

    The plague vaccine licensed for use in the United States is prepared from Y. pestis organisms grown in artificial media, inactivated with formaldehyde, and preserved in 0.5% phenol. The vaccine contains trace amounts of beef-heart extract, yeast extract, agar, and peptones and peptides of soya and casein.

    Serum antibody to Fraction I capsular antigen, as measured by the passive hemagglutination (PHA) test, is correlated with resistance to Y. pestis infection in experimental animals. A comparable correlation between PHA titer and immunity probably occurs in humans.

    Following the primary series of 3 injections, about 7% of individuals do not produce PHA antibody, and a few fail to develop a titer of 128, the level correlated with immunity in experimental animals. PHA titers should be determined for individuals who have an unusually high risk of infection or who have a history of serious reactions to the vaccine in order to govern the frequency of booster doses. Such testing can be arranged through state health departments. Since plague vaccination may only ameliorate illness, whenever a vaccinated person has a definite exposure, prophylactic antibiotics may be indicated whether or not an antibody response has been demonstrated.


    Vaccination is recommended for:

    All laboratory and field personnel who are working with Y. pestis

    organisms resistant to antimicrobics, 2) Persons engaged in aerosol experiments with Y. pestis and 3) Persons engaged in field operations in areas with enzootic plague where preventing exposure is not possible (such as some disaster areas).

    Selective plague vaccination should be considered for:

    Laboratory personnel regularly working with Y. pestis or

    plague-infected rodents, 2) Workers (for example, Peace Corps volunteers and agricultural advisors) who reside in rural areas with enzootic or epidemic plague where avoidance of rodents and fleas is impossible, and 3) Persons whose vocation brings them into regular contact with wild rodents or rabbits in areas with enzootic plague.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Maybe if you trolls stopped calling vaccine safety advocates “anti-vaxxers,” labels wouldn’t be part of the discussion.

  • transportjohnny, the bus driver, picked up her crayon and scribbled, “A number of dumb and irrelevant questions.”
    – 1) Nothing in this universe is 100% safe. Not even the anti-vaxxer’s favourites – organic food and vitamin C.
    – 2) No all diseases are not dangerous to 100% of the people. The Black Plague only killed 1/3 to 1/2 of Europe. Many caught it and survived… so what is your delusional anti-vaccine point?
    – 3) For diseases caused by poor sanitation it greatly helped. For diseases not caused by poor sanitation it didn’t do much and, in fact, may have hurt. Not too intelligent if you can’t figure this out, are you?
    – 4) Virtually none. For disease victims who are drastically deficient in a vitamin they may help but for everyone else who isn’t deficient they do nothing.
    – 5) Look it up.
    – 6) No, it isn’t. I can say with 100% certainty that canoe paddles are not associated with autism. Why do you delusionally think I can’t make that statement?
    Any more amazingly ignorant talking points (questions) in defense of disease?
    Glad I could help.

  • FallsAngel

    I am sure moderating a vaccine forum is a major PIA. Do note that many people, including Ron Roy himself,have been making snarky comments about other posters. I have to say it bugs me when a mod jumps on one person and not the others for the same thing.

  • I don’t call vaccine safety advocates anti-vaxxers though. I call those who state false information in order to villfy vaccines anti-vaxxers. And if they’re dangerous as you say, then you should be against vaccines, anyway.

  • Oh don’t worry – I’ve deleted like 20 of his comments

  • all of these reasons sound like victim blaming and not admitting that even healthy people can die from measles

  • Ron, I’ve deleted dozens of your comments today for your attacking tone and calling others names. You can fight an argument but don’t fight the person or call them names. Period.

  • Also, I’ve called out people on both sides. 🙂 I’m an equal opportunity enforcer

  • Ron Roy

    A few more vaccine injuries I’ve personally seen and were confirmed by attending physicians, as being cause by vaccines, some of them were at Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial Hospital:Thrombocytopenia, Fibromyalgia, Juvenile Arthritis, two cases of CIDP. I know of two adults and 4 babies whose deaths were confirmed as being caused by vaccines.

  • Ron Roy

    According to Hugh Fudenberg, MD, the world’s leading immunogeneticist and
    13th most quoted biologist of our times (nearly 850 papers in peer review
    journals): If an individual has had 5 consecutive flu shots between 1970 and
    1980 (the years studied) his/her chances of getting Alzheimer’s Disease is 10
    times higher than if he/she had one, 2 or no shots. Dr. Fudenberg said it
    was so and that it was due to mercury and aluminum that is in every flu shot.
    The gradual mercury and aluminum buildup in the brain causes cognitive

    Flu shots contain 25 micrograms of mercury. One microgram is considered

  • Ron Roy

    The moderator of this blog keeps deleting posts the pro vaxx shills can’t refute. An easy way to win a discussion.

  • Ron Roy


  • NOPE. I’m deleting because of your tone

  • Provide their VAERS numbers

  • Ron Roy

    Great comeback! WOW! Is that the best you can come up with? If so. You should have never gotten out of bed.

  • Ron Roy

    ”A new analysis of Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s symptoms suggests he
    might not have been stricken by polio but by Guillain-Barré syndrome.

    In 1921, at the beginning of his political career, Roosevelt became
    feverish and developed paralysis, which started in his legs and moved up
    to his neck. Although he recovered partially, he remained permanently

    Immunological pediatrician Armond Goldman of the University of Texas
    Medical Branch in Galveston now says FDR’s symptoms are more concordant
    with Guillain-Barré syndrome, a bacterially induced autoimmune disease.
    For example, polio paralyzes limbs unevenly and doesn’t move up the body
    as happened with Roosevelt. The intense pain he felt when people
    touched his paralyzed legs isn’t commonly seen in poliomyelitis. What’s
    more, it would be highly unusual for polio to strike someone well into
    adulthood.” Source: Sciencemag,org

  • Ron Roy

    No he lost his license because his treatments were a threat to the drug companies, and the whole of the Medical Mafias, profits.

  • Raging Bee

    It’s all you’re worth. You’re welcome.

  • White_and_Nerdy

    You know Roy it is bad enough that you just can’t get basic facts correct…like what the N stands for in NPAFP….but when you keep carpet-bombing asserts that systematically insult the intelligence of the average 10-year old, then folks start to question your integrity.

    The solution is obvious: could you please make some effort to post something at least a bit rational????


  • Raging Bee

    …vaccines with aluminum are administered parenterally (i.e., by injection), bypassing the liver and any other detoxification.

    Are you sure about that? Doesn’t blood pass through the liver to be filtered at some point? Isn’t that how the liver works?

  • Raging Bee

    What, you’re going to keep on repeating the same false allegation until it becomes true?

  • Raging Bee

    …but the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t want to change.

    Yeah, because making and marketing new products, and advertizing how much better they are than whatever went before, NEVER makes ANY money for the pharmaceutical industry, amirite?

  • Right, Ronnie.
    One guy speculating. Very forceful argument.
    As opposed to:
    FDR was hardly poor. He was extremely rich and could afford an army of the very best doctors and scientists in the world. They all diagnosed him with polio and maintained the polio diagnosis by actually examining the patient, FDR, throughout his life until his death in 1945.

    Guillain-Barrè was first described in 1859 and was commonly known in medicine by the turn of the century. In 1916, five years before FDR contracted polio, Guillain and Barrè described the clinical diagnostics of the disease. By 1945 GB was very well known and yet none of the top experts who cared for FDR, a legendary US President and a very rich elite, could figure out he really had GB instead of what they were diagnosing – polio.
    Right… I believe that could happen.
    Polio exists and was causing outbreaks for a long time, one of which was the infamous 1916 NYC outbreak killing thousands.
    Anti-vaxxers are willing to change/ignore facts and history to maintain their delusions and perpetuate their death-cult lies.

  • Nice delusional KONSPIRACEE!!! theory and rewriting of history you’ve got going there, Ronnie.
    Too bad the facts are in opposition to your anti-vaccine death cult lies.

  • tomonthebay

    Good grief Ron. He lost his license because he was a dangerous sociopath who put his patients health at risk with an outrageously inappropriate therapy that undoubtedly did significant harm to those patients. Wow.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    The only people I know who lie about vaccines support them.

  • se habla espol

    No, just a lot of work to do so that the patient survives and potentially returns to good health.

  • persephone

    Let’s compare profit.

    Most of the childhood vaccines are sold by drug companies for $1-$2 a dose. In the U.S., 4M babies are born each year. That’s a lot of vaccines, you’ll certainly say. But it’s really not. Profit from vaccines makes up less than 2% of pharma profits. The hassle of making vaccines and the low returns has resulted in pharma companies dropping them entirely.

    Why should they hassle with it when they can make so much more for so much less investment and time and manufacturing costs. I picked up four prescriptions this week. Total retail on these drugs came to just over $800.

    Which is a better investment? I’m going with the profit they made on my prescriptions.

    But, you probably don’t understand the logic involved in decisions regarding investments and ROI. It’s probably just as well that your kids die from not getting modern medical care, because you are totally screwing up the gene pool.

  • se habla espol

    Maybe just maybe the ones who should be paying for that research—the anti-vax industry—find it too profitable to avoid it, and to just deny that the research shows the opposite of their claims?

  • se habla espol

    Are you trying to deny that the anti-vax books, movies, web sites, conventions, speakers, and alt-meds don’t really exist? With all those products and services, it sure seems like an industry to any honest observer.

    Granted, the anti-vax industry can legitimately also be considered a cult or a religion, because its dogma is based on opinion (“belief”) rather than fact, and it exists to enhance the wealth and power of its leaders.

  • If you can provide that evidence of a widespread universal fraud, you’ll have the beginnings of an argument…


    I don’t have polio because I don’t drink water with feces.

    But I do have double scoliosis caused by polio vaccines( recevied many)

    Please, sit down if you don’t want to faint and have cayenne pepper handy to prevent heartattack before you read this:

    There is a study that proves that polio Vaccines cause scoliosis.

    Read about Cutter incident!

    Jonas Salk himself admitted and testified that all polio cases in USA in 1950’s were caused by polio vaccine!

    What other proof do you need?

    If you do,that’s the sign you suffer from cognitive dissonance!


    Unfortunately, that is a definition of stupid,when you have zero knowledge on the subject and you are trying arogantly to “discuss” subject you don’t know anything about it.
    That’s why it’s called “Blind Vaccine religion”


    You are painfully and dangerously ignorant.
    You don’t even know that 99% of antivaxxers are Vaccinated people with Vaccine injured and dead children( KILLED BY VACCINES!)

    We are all EX VAXXERS!

    You can’t handle the truth nor knowledge!!!

  • Yes, that’s supposed to happen next year for the past 200 years.

  • That is a silly argument.

    If I’m told to moderate a debate about a subject I know nothing about….I can do it, easy. It’s just that my job will be more about not letting the opponents call each other names than anything else.

  • Raging Bee

    Please cite and quote the “posts the pro vaxx shills can’t refute.” Oh wait, you can’t ’cause there’s a Big Pharma conspiracy to make them disappear, and it’s so pervasive we don’t even see the normal “This comment has been deleted” note we normally see here. What a convenient excuse not to have any evidence to back up any of your fake-persecution claims…

  • tomonthebay

    One microgram of thimerosal is NOT toxic Ron. Do you even know what a microgram is? It is one MILLIONTH of a gram. By the way, most flu shots are thimerosal free. The ones we carried at my hospital were all single dose syringes. No thimerosal.

  • tomonthebay

    No you don’t. Blatantly false.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    ” I call those who state false information in order to villfy vaccines anti-vaxxers” Who are these people and what do you claim are their lies?

  • shpadoinkle

    hence ”other negative outcomes”.

  • one: I neither know nor care what their names are. Two: Note that I was careful to state that they state false information without using the word ‘deliberately’.

  • Bored Now

    So 0.2 per 100,000.

    Not including sequelae like SSPE. So it’s actually considerably higher.

  • tomonthebay

    The settlement was for a privacy violation. Had nothing to do with the cases that cost him is license.

  • shay simmons

    Good thing vaccines did such a great job of reducing incidence, isn’t it?

  • Beth Clarkson

    Could you provide a study to support that claim? Thanks.

  • shpadoinkle

    not really. either meaningless, or an actual loss to health.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Then what “false information” are you talking about then. And by all means, please supply the proof that the info is “false” and not just an opinion that differs from you and the 8 other vaccine defenders who populate Disqus.

  • shay simmons

    Again, the epidemiological timeline for polio alone says you’re mistaken. Precipitous drop in incidence due to vaccinations = precipitous drop in negative outcomes.

  • se habla espol

    What other proof do you need?

    How about something other than your unsupported claims, for instance that all the polio cases after 1949 but before the OPV existed were caused by the OPV. You might also explain why the Cutter incident, Cutter Labs’ failed attempt to produce an actual vaccine, says anything about anything except itself and about the intense quality control that was put in place as a result.

  • White_and_Nerdy

    I am sorry that you don’t have the basic reading skills to see that obvious fraud in Judith’s postings.

    And I am very, very sorry that you ignore the fact that part of the anti-vacc fraud is deceiving folks in believing non-existent vaccine adverse reactions. This is well documented in courts and explained in great detail by these people called “scientists”.

    I am very aware of the truth: the anti-vaccs are a medical fraud that endangers our children and that preys upon folks too clueless to even follow middle-school math/science/reading and such failures as human beings as to not even try and properly protect their children’s health…hard to believe but here you are!


  • White_and_Nerdy

    I am sorry that you don’t have the basic counting or reading skills to see the anti-vacc fraud with respect to Dr. Salk’s comments.

    I am sorry that you don’t have the basic reading skills to understand how polio is spread.

    I am sorry that you don’t have the basic research skills to see how your picture’s claims are staggeringly obvious lies.

    This is one of the reasons why we have laws: to protect people like you…who are utterly intellectually defenseless….from medical fraud…like the anti-vaccs.

    Thanks for demonstrating this fact!


  • White_and_Nerdy

    The irony in your posting is infinite!


  • Brian

    Could you provide a study to support that claim?

    Absolutely. This topic has been studied to death, looking at vaccines both individually and in combination, testing multiple ingredients, repeated in multiple demographics all over the world, and the results are always the same: The unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated so it’s obvious the two aren’t related.

    One large meta-analysis study (covering 1,250,000 people) was Taylor et al. (2014) Vaccines are not associated with autism: an evidence-based meta-analysis of case-control and cohort studies.

    Others include:
    -Taylor et al. (1999) studied 498 children in the UK showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination
    -Makela et al. (2001) studied 500,000 children in Finland showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination -Madsen et al. (2002) studied 500,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination -Hviid et al. (2003) studied 450,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism based on thimerosal in vaccines
    -Verstraeten et al. (2003) studied 125,000 children in the U.S. showing no difference in autism and other disorders based on thimerosal in vaccines -Andrews et al. (2004) studied 100,000 children in the UK and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on thimerosal in vaccines
    -DeStefano et al. (2004) studied 2,500 children in the U.S. showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
    -Smeeth et al. (2004) studied 5000 people in the UK and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on vaccination
    -Honda et al. (2005) studied 300,000 people in Japan showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination
    -Fombonne et al. (2006) studied 28,000 children in Canada showing no difference in autism rates and other developmental disorders based on vaccination
    -Richler et al. (2006) studied 300 people with autism in the U.S. and found no difference in regressive autism rates based on vaccination -Uchiyama et al. (2007) studied 900 people with autism in Japan and found no difference in regressive autism rates based on vaccination
    -Price et al. (2010) and DeStefano et al. (2013) studied 1000 children in the U.S. and found no difference in either classical or regressive autism rates, or other forms of ASD, based on thimerosal or other ingredients in vaccines
    -Kuwaik et al. (2014) studied autism rates among those who had older siblings with autism, showing no difference based on vaccination even with genetic predispositions to autism
    -Jain et al. (2015) replicated the study with 95,000 people and got the same result
    -Baxter et al. (2015) showed that, when using the same diagnosis criteria, the autism rate was the same 25 years ago as it is today
    -Gadad et al. (2015) showed no difference in autism rates in rhesus monkeys based on vaccination, and their brains were dissected just to make certain. Also, this study was funded by anti-vaccine groups
    -Zerbo et al. (2017) studied 200,000 in the USA showing no difference in autism rates based on influenza vaccination during the mothers’ pregnancy. and fresh off the presses…
    -Becerra-Culqui et al. (2018) studied 80,000 in the USA showing no difference in autism rates based on Tdap vaccination during the mothers’ pregnancy.

  • And then they found out that he was a fraud which didn’t help matters. Nor did the birthday party incident help his case any.

  • Just so you know some variation on the pharma shill gambit is common with certain types. If you know about that, you can look out for it, right? 😉

  • Beth Clarkson

    Thank you. Could you provide the names of the journal and/or the name of the article rather than simply the lead author’s last name and year. I’m not able to look up the studies with just that information. Also, this is a long list but I’m mainly interested in finding a study that looked at vaccinated (full schedule) versus unvaccinated (no vaccines), not just one vaccine such as the Tdap during pregnancy or the MMR or just one ingredient such as the thimerosal studies.

  • Mike Stevens

    Wrong fraud…..

  • FallsAngel

    1) There was no live polio vaccine in the US or anywhere else until 1961.

    2) As Acleron said, the ancient Egyptians did not have DDT.

    For as many times I’ve heard some variation of this alleged testimony of Salk’s, I’ve never found a citation of him actually saying it.

  • Mike Stevens

    I suspect you understood around 2% of what “Bored now” posted in his comment.
    And you accuse him of being stupid?
    Indeed, the irony is infinite, like W&N said…

  • Mike Stevens

    I like your fake news, April!
    The Cutter incident took place in 1955, with around 200 cases of paralysis occuring Nationwide in the subsequent months.

    The picture you post is at the Ranchos Los Amigos hospital, and is one that was used in the “March of Dimes” publicity shots in the early 1950s (which was originally set up by FDR).

    Can you explain how an absolutely identical set of pictures could be recreated a few years later for the Cutter incident (and all the Cutter cases were spread accross different hospitals at different times anyway). Maybe through CGI?

    So what pic do you want to show us next?
    …How there were more folk at Trump’s inauguration than there were at Obama’s? …go for it!

  • shay simmons

    So, prove Bored Now wrong. Can you?

  • Ron Roy

    Shady will go into an apoplectic fit when someone somewhere gets an innocuous diseases because, as she believes, they haven’t been vaccinated but will deny any deaths caused by vaccines.

  • Mike Stevens

    Yes and no.
    All blood will pass through the liver at some point, since it flows through the hepatic artery.
    However, blood from the GI tract flows to the liver by another route, the portal vein. This means that the liver does have the opportunity to metabolise some substances that are ingested before they reach the main systemic circulation.
    …However, aluminium is not metabolised in the liver… so all aluminium that is absobed from the gut will end up in the systemic circulation!

    Of course, even then it doesn’t just go straight to the brain – in fact the brain is the least likely organ in the body to retain aluminium because of the very protective blood-brain barrier. 90% of aluminium in the blood is bound to transferrin and excreted via the kidneys within a couple of days, a tiny fraction is retained, and 75% of this ends up in the bones or the lungs anyway.

  • Mike Stevens

    It seems as though antivaxers aren’t necessarily highly educated, scientific people… they don’t know the basics about human biology or aluminium pharmacokinetics, for starters!

  • Mike Stevens


  • Mike Stevens

    “Threatening the moderator is rarely a good idea, Ron.”

    Threatening the moderator is a really good idea, Ron.


  • Mike Stevens

    April does seem to be a fake news amplifier.

    “For as many times I’ve heard some variation of this alleged testimony of Salk’s, I’ve never found a citation of him actually saying it.”

    Antivax sources claim that the Washington Post reported Salk in 1976 as saying that the Sabin OPV was the “principal if not sole cause of every reported polio case in the United States since 1961”.
    I cannot find an independent source for this; perhaps not unnaturally, it is only found on antivax websites where they use it like April does to argue that somehow polio vaccine was incredibly evil for reducing cases from 42,000 a year to nothing (but in doing so causing 6 or 7 vaccine associated cases)

    I guess that if Salk really said this, he was trying to have a sly dig at Sabin, considering their rivalry was rampant at the time, and Sabin’s vaccine had superceded Salk’s IPV.

    But as you point out, April is wrong with her “quote” anyway – There was no Sabin OPV in the 1950s, so it could not have been the cause of the epidemics of polio.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Did you just post a meme? Seriously. That’s some funny stuff. I can’t even debunk it because it’s so grainy, I can’t make out the source. I’m guessing that was intentional. I tend to believe the epidemiologist charged with actually researching the real numbers, Dr. Walter Zahorodny. You know what he says? Yeah.. epidemic.

  • Brian

    Autism cannot possibly be a vaccine injury, because the unvaccinated develop autism at the same rate as the vaccinated. It’s obvious that the two aren’t related.

  • Mike Stevens

    Errr… didn’t you notice something here, WithoutACrystalBall?

    “Se habla espol” was replying to “Jim X”, who was criticising YOU for saying “their” rather than saying “his/hers”.
    Se habla was pointing out to Jim that “their” is quite correct colloquial usage. I think you could give Se habla a bit of latitude, no?

  • shay simmons

    Don’t encourage him

  • Brian

    All of the studies can be found on google scholar or pubmed easily by searching for the author, date range, and one or two key words (ie vaccine). If you have trouble with any particular study, let me know.

    There are a lot of problems with the theoretical study you’re looking for. For example,
    (1) What do you define as “full schedule”, considering influenza is given annually throughout life, and many vaccines are given long after an autism diagnosis is expected?
    (2) A “never vaccinated with anything” group would contain both extreme confounders and suffer from tiny sample sizes, making results unreliable. Scientists know this and account for it by avoiding confounder groups or using dose-response analysis (ie Destefano 2013). Or they do a prospective study where they can dissect the brains afterwards (Gadad), but this isn’t recommended for human subjects.
    (3) Even if such a study was possible, it wouldn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know from all the other studies. Vaccine refusal for one vaccine is strongly correlated with vaccine refusal for other vaccines, so any association would have already have shown up in the other large studies.

    Is there a particular reason you’d want such a study? What question are you trying to answer?

  • se habla espol

    According to Hugh Fudenberg, MD, the world’s leading immunogeneticist

    [citation required].

    13th most quoted biologist of our times (nearly 850 papers in peer review

    [citation required]

    If an individual has had 5 consecutive flu shots between 1970 and
    1980 (the years studied)

    [citation required on the relevance of the vaccines in that period to modern vaccines, and to any contemporary decision to protect ones self and others from flu infection?

    his/her chances of getting Alzheimer’s Disease is 10 times higher than if he/she had one, 2 or no shots.

    [citation required]

    Dr. Fudenberg said it was so

    What significance might that have to those of us who look at the science rather than some random claimed authority?

    and that it was due to mercury and aluminum that is in every flu shot.

    As I reported earlier, I have been unable to get a flu shot with mercury in it for years. Thus, what, if anything, might this claim have to do with anything?

    The gradual mercury and aluminum buildup in the brain causes cognitive dysfunction.

    [citation required] on both the claims that such a buildup occurs and the claim that such buildup might cause cognitive dysfunction.

    Flu shots contain 25 micrograms of mercury.

    [citation required]

    One microgram is considered toxic.

    [citation required as to the relevance of this claim for modern vaccines.

  • Beth Clarkson

    I was looking for the one by Fombonne earlier. I got a listing of a bunch of articles, but nothing that appeared to cover vaccines as well as autism. I have read quite a few of the studies already, but that was one I knew I hadn’t. ( 1) There are a number of ways to define it, but I’d be okay with any just about any of them. Preferably, vaccines would be handled mathematically as a ordinal variable rather than categorical. (2) While it’s true that there could be co-founders, which means that causality could not be determined if a relationship was found, but if no relationship was detected, it would be confirmatory towards your claim that they are not related. (3) I’m mainly interested in the issue of multiple vaccines given at once. The research along that particular line is sparse. More vaccines have been added to the schedule, but little research has done about the synergistic or interaction effects of doing so. I’d like to see more if you know of any.

  • FallsAngel

    “Roosevelt had GBS” was a very popular meme back in 2003. When you Google those terms, that’s the date you find. Not much since then. There are pros and cons to both diagnoses. One big con for GBS is that the paralysis usually isn’t permanent.

    If you copy/pasted that information from your link, they’re wrong about GBS. GBS is not only “bacterially (sic?) induced. GBS can develop after viral illnesses as well, such as influenza.

  • shay simmons

    Do you ever read your cites, Ron?

  • Brian

    Well, Destafano did look at the entire vaccine schedule, and tallied vaccines based on antigen count, so that’s already been done. Gadad et al. also looked at the whole schedule.

    And this is precisely the type of study where the questions are already answered, as I explained in my previous comment. If you are trying to measure the changing water level of a lake, you don’t need rulers at ten different locations. If it goes up or down at one, it goes up or down at all.

    Even in the “just MMR” studies, the non-MMR group was also less likely to receive other vaccines, so even if autism was related to “just polio” vaccine, or if it was related to the total number regardless of type, it would have shown up in some of the large studies. Scientists know this, and can do the math to confirm it.

  • shay simmons

    How deep in the woo must one be NOT to see red flags when someone claims he can ‘cure’ autistic children using his own bone marrow?

  • lisu

    If you’re not autistic, and have never done magic mushrooms, I’d think twice about describing those two things as the same. That is not how it works.

  • shay simmons

    Exactly who designated Fudenberg as the world’s leading immunologist (particularly since he’s dead. Who took his place?)?

    So he published nearly 850 papers in peer review journals…would those be the journals you claim are controlled by Big Pharma and never allow anything critical of vaccines to be published?

    That number – if true – is another red flag*. Assuming he started publishing as a doctoral candidate in his 20s and kept this up for sixty years (he died at 85) that means he would have planned, designed, gotten IRB approval, secured funding, conducted research, analysed, wrote, and submitted an average of one paper every 26 days.

    Dr Fudenberg made a lot of claims. What evidence do you have that any of the above are correct?

    *Red flag #1 is his claim he had cured autistic children using his own bone marrow. Holy ethics committee slapdown, Batman. Red flag #2 was his being stripped of his license for procuring controlled drugs for his own use.

  • Raging Bee

    I’ve done LSD and psilocybin mushrooms (that’s what they’re called), and I think I can say that’s about the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard anyone say about any hallucinogen. I’ve never been autistic, but I’m pretty sure it’s nothing at all like tripping on hallucinogens. Education: GET SOME!

  • ???

  • I posted a sourced meme though I was unaware that it was too grainy to make out – I could read it just fine. But surely you’re aware that presentation is less important than the substance though it being grainy is a valid complaint. Did you try clicking to embiggen?

    However, thank you for the suggestion of Dr Walter Zahorodny. No items found. https://www.ncbi(dot)

    Could you show me where Dr Walter Z’s research established that autism is much higher in children than in adults when using a consistent definition?

  • I wonder if you happen to remember what month and year that was?

  • Mike Stevens

    They were discussing the fraud Geier, not the fraud Wakefield..

  • lisu

    I asked an autistic person who has used hallucinogens. They confirm that hallucinations bear absolutely no resemblance to the real world, even with autistic pattern-matching applied. That’s one of the daftest comments I have heard in some time.

  • shpadoinkle


  • Bored Now

    The evidence lies with the parents who witnessed / saw / experienced their kids regress physically and mentally AFTER being vaccinated.

    So the evidence lies with a group of people who even if vaccines are perfectly safe are expected to observe events of this kind.

    Congratulations Ron, you have just vetoed your own evidence.

  • Bored Now

    When a medi-quack notices something it’s called a ” clinical observation ” when anyone else notices the same thing the medical mafia calls it an ”anecdote.”

    Firstly, the term “clinical observation” isn’t very formally defined. For example in this paper the term is used for anesthesiologist specifically watching a patient to see if function had returned. That’s not just “noticing”.

    Secondly anecdotes are anecdotes. It doesn’t really matter where they come from. There are plenty of doctors who’s opinions are ignored on the basis of the dearth of data supporting their words. This is how it should be.

  • Beth Clarkson

    Destafano (2004) appears to be the study that Brian Hooker blew the whistle on regarding not reporting positive findings among African American boys. The Gadad (2015) in your list was on Rhesus monkeys. I found the Fombonne study you listed, which only looked at MMR and Thimerosal. I disagree that if autism was related to the number of vaccines that such a relationship would have been uncovered and reported in the studies on MMR or ‘just polio’ (BTW I’m not aware of any hypothesis connecting autism to polio vaccine). It’s not an assumption I’m willing to make. I’m looking for data instead. Are you aware of any published studies that have looked at that particular question? If “Scientists know this, and can do the math to confirm it.” where is the math showing that? I’d like to see it.


    I don’t have to prove anything to anyone.
    If you want to find the TRUHT you will find it.
    It’s available to anyone,it’s everywhere and it’s free!

    People knew Vaccines are dangerous and deadly,100 years before I was born.

    Dr Suzanne Humphries
    researched Vaccines for EIGHT YEARS!
    You can start educating yourself by reading her book “Disolving Illusions”

    There are many books written on dangers of Vaccines.
    And there are thousands of studies on dangers of Vaccines.

    One of the biggest eye opener for someone who is starting to learn about vaccines is mini series “The truth about Vaccines”
    I highly recommend it.

  • shay simmons

    I wish! It was when I was relatively new to the AV debate and did not realize the importance of being able to link to sources.

    I wonder if a query to their science columnist would get us an answer?

  • shay simmons

    What has been claimed without evidence can be rejected without prejudice.

    Just out of curiosity, can you provide the PMID for any studies that Humphries has published in relevant journals?

  • shay simmons

    In re: videos, please see “heirarchy of evidence.”

  • Brian

    (1) It was DeStefano (2013) that looked at antigen count, not his 2004 paper. Sorry for not making this clear.
    (2) Brian Hooker never blew the whistle on anything. His paper was retracted as fraudulent, because, among other things, he did the math wrong. He was also exposed as lying during his VICP rejection, as part of a scam which continues today.
    (3) I personally have explained the math confirming the extremely strong correlation of vaccine refusal, using data from 1.5 million kindergarteners in California. If you want me to explain it to you, I will.

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Did I try to click on it? Did you not click on it before you uploaded it? You should complain to your fake science blog for creating such a piece of junk. But like I said, if it had shown it’s source, it would be easier to refute.
    No link for the good doc? If there was only a place on the internet where you could look him up. Have you tried to google him on Yahoo? Maybe Altavista? I know, go AskJeeves. Or just use ignorance instead of having to admit that you are really just a troll and you know I caught you lying.

  • Beth Clarkson

    Thanks for the correction. I’m reviewing that paper now. Yes, I’d like to see the math showing how a correlation of vaccine refusal with MMR or polio vaccine rates could be used to conclude that a pattern or relationship of the total number of vaccines received with autism could be uncovered in a large enough study of the MMR or polio vaccine. Thanks.

  • “Agitator.” – as my parents used to call us when we were taunting our sibs. Just the one word and you knew to stop.

  • Clearly, you didn’t try to click it or you’d know that it did show its sources. And I thought you said he’d done the research on it? Research is not found on google/Yahoo/Altavista/AskJeeves.

    Oh and why on earth do you think it’s my responsibility to go hunting for evidence for your claims that you made yourself?

  • Iggy Semmelweis

    Your cartoon has no references. Oh and why on earth do you think it’s my responsibility to go hunting for evidence for your claims that you made yourself?

  • Let’s address your second point first:

    It isn’t. That’s why I provided the pubmed link when I said Dr. Walter Z. had no research. Sure, you’ve got to reform the link but of course, since you’re so much smarter than global scientific and medical consensus….that won’t pose a problem for you, naturally.

    First…um, yes, it did show sources.

    However, let me get the sources typed out for you.

    Autism prevalence in British Children:

    Prevalence of autism-spectrum conditions: UK-based school population study. Baron-Cohen et al; Br J Psychiatry. 2009; Jun, 194(6): 500-9.

    Autism Prevalence in British Adults:

    Epidemiology of Autism Spectrum Disorders in Adults in the Community in England. Brugha et al; Arch Gen Psychiatric. 2011; 68(5):459-465.

  • I’ve found a couple of interesting things by searching for Suzanne Humphries in pubmed.

  • My parents just made stirring motions. My brother and I knew it meant “STOP THAT RIGHT NOW, [insert full name here]” fairly young but it took a little while longer for the realization that it meant ‘stop stirring shit’. This latter thing was entirely intentional, of course.

  • shay simmons

    Thank you! Do we know if the S Humphries listed is actually Suzanne?

  • Raging Bee

    Yeah, not sure why he’s trying to pretend or imply that autism is like using hallucinogens. He’s trying to either trivialize autism or demonize drug use.

  • al kimeea

    37 dead in recent European outbreak of 41,000 thanks to the old fake news you’re trying to spread. This outbreak is already twice as large as all of 2017 in only 6 months.

    You are responsible for that.

  • al kimeea

    I’m either a day or very late, but if nobody else has mentioned it, the recent measles outbreak in Europe has more than doubled that for all of 2017 in six months @ 37 deaths and 41,000 reported cases.

  • Lucy

    My mom is also a polio survivor – she got polio as a 4-year-old when her aunt made her share a bottle of soda with a kid who had polio. And although she was never in an iron lung, and as far as we know doesn’t have post-polio syndrome, as a result of the polio she was slow all her life and never did well in gym class, and she learned when she was 50 years old that her feet were as small and delicate (and inefficient) as they were because they were deformed by polio. And polio, and the resulting weakness, hasn’t exactly done wonders for her waistline, either.

    Also, now my mom has a shitload of mobility issues and has trouble walking more than a New York City block (which is 1/20 of a mile). If she walks further than that (and sometimes if she even walks that distance) she often ends up having to recover the next day. And the doctors don’t know what is causing those issues – they’re totally idiopathic, though I’m not certain polio didn’t have a hand in them (maybe an indirect hand, given that the polio specialist she saw said it wasn’t post-polio syndrome, but perhaps polio had a hand nonetheless, since her sisters didn’t get polio and don’t have those issues).

    Oh, and also my mom’s vision was damaged when she got the measles – she didn’t need glasses before, and right after she got the measles she needed glasses. And my mom is one of the milder cases – she knows she got lucky (and also unlucky, since she got polio right before the vaccine came out). And even this “mild” case came in with a shitload of problems. So vaccines are totally worth it.

  • Anat

    Singular they is correct grammar (see And is better that ‘she or he’ because it also covers people who identify as a gender outside the binary.

  • Raging Bee

    I’m guessing the anti-vax crowd would respond by citing all the vaccine injuries in Europe, and the decrease in new cases of autism now that fewer people were vaccinating their kids. And yet, I haven’t heard anyone mentioning these things…I wonder why…?

  • they also aren’t talking about the 41,000 cases of Measles in europe either

  • Raging Bee

    Curiouser and curiouser…

  • I know. it’s very bizarre

  • Mike Stevens

    The screenshots don’t lie, aangel.
    They show that you did.

  • The Not So Handsome Stranger.

    Hi, K!

  • Desertphile

    “Wakefield only reviewed the cases of 12 children. The organization that published his paper investigated his claims and study results locating
    numerous errors in his research.”

    “ERRORS?” No! Wakefield was paid about US$740,000 to fabricate a link between vaccines and neurological developmental disorders.